Continuation Part 19: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[acbytesla]

I am a strong believer in ethical behaviour. I support coming down heavily on officials who abuse their powers or exceed the remit of their office.

What do you do if there is a serious crime or terrorist incident such as the recent Betaclan? At some point, someone has to do the dirty job of finding the perpetrators and questioning witnesses, many of whom will resent it.

Really? So do you consider lying to be ethical?

 

[Vixen]

You don't know any people in national security. Your previous post also shows that that you did not read the article because tests have shown that trained cops are worse at detecting deception than a college student.

Cops who trained on a three day course on the John Reid technique.

 

[Vixen]

Amanda gave a masterful performance of someone cracking under the force and stress of a coercive manipulative interrogation while simultaneously maintaining complete control not letting slip a single detail of the crime knowing Patrick would be exonerated, the interrogation wouldn't be recorded, and no evidence would ever tie her to the murder, and the police would themselves admit they believed the Patrick theory to be correct, so that she could eventually win $10,000 when the ECHR settled her case 15 years down the road.

You're Amanda's copy writer, right?

 

[Desert Fox]

Cops who trained on a three day course on the John Reid technique.

In the experiment, the police officers performed less well than the students but expressed greater confidence in their ability to tell who was lying. “That’s a bad combination,” Kassin said.

 

[Vixen]

It is because some people's uber fear that the terrorists are winning by taking our liberty. Those that wish to restrict freedom use the fear of some outside threat as the reason.

Those on the other side of this seem more than willing to have many false convictions in order to make them safer in their minds.

I do not agree with false convictions. Having read Paul Foot's book about the A6 murder and the hanging of James Hanratty for it, when I met Paul Foot some years back, I took the opportunity to chat with him about the case. The late Paul Foot was a leading campaigner of belief in Hanratty's innocence and to achieve a posthumous pardon. He informed me, they had now exhumed his body for DNA and that the DNA showed he had had been at the crime scene after all. Whilst Paul expressed scepticism the DNA was valid, I felt sorry for him, as a fine man with a strong sense of justice, campaigning for the innocence of someone he truly believed wrongly hanged, turning out to be wrong.

Hanratty left his victim paralysed from the waist down in a wheelchair after raping her and shooting her married loved dead in the head on the hardshoulder of the A6 motorway. Foot was convinced Hanratty had a watertight alibi from a landlady he came into contact during his campaign.

Was the DNA valid? We may never know. However, your idea that convicting people is wrong and that those who believe Amanda and Raff are guilty are people who believe in wrongful conviction is plain wrong, and a logical fallacy.

 

[Vixen]

Amanda Knox's Odd Behavior Focus of Testimony
By ANN WISE ROME, March 13, 2009

Amanda Knox's odd behavior in the days after her roommate was found stabbed to death was once again a focal point of police testimony in her Italian murder trail today.

Police described a young woman who was calm when others were crying but at times slapped herself in the head, and at one point began shaking uncontrollably and sobbing.

Observing behaviour is a valid part of solving crime It is not the same as claiming to be expert in 'body language'.

 

[bagels]

You're Amanda's copy writer, right?

Your theory is that Amanda cracked but didn't crack. Spilled her guts but said nothing. The police were gentle and didn't lay a hand, but everyone they interrogated that night says otherwise. Amanda made up a story that the police stated was the very one they knew to be correct. No transcripts or tapes of this interrogation have ever been released.

There is a tremendous amount of evidence about what happened during these interrogations, both direct and circumstantial. None of it supports what you believe, which would be a fantastic scenario that, like all the others the PGP purport, relies on borderline psychic abilities, and coincidences astronomical in scale.

 

[Vixen]

You are correct. But acc. to John Follain, they were also Fabio D'Astolto's words.

The night Amanda and Raffaele spent all night at the Questura for questioning (early morning of 3rd).....

​

D'Astolto, acc. to Follain, thought she might hit her head on a wall.

Further, acc. to Follain, Mignini also observed this behaviour. After the second interrogation where Mignini never spoke and said he intuited that Amanda was relieved of a burden, was afraid of Patrick, and wanted to continue talking - all intuited by him without asking about those things - this behaviour was so important to Mignini (again, acc. to Follain) that he broke his silence to note the behaviour....

​

All these, apparently, are important clues as to Amanda's guilt.

Then there's that great part where Mignini says he finds her sincere in her fear of Lumumba, but then Follain goes on to relate that:

- Mignini had to arrest Lumumba because Amanda accused him
- Mignini regarded Amanda as a liar and an actress.​

Thanks for reminding me of how Follain put it.....

Actually, Mignini ascertained Amanda was afraid of Patrick because she literally started screaming, "He's bad! He's bad!"

And put on a performance of being afraid worthy of an Oscar award. Raff even falsely claimed to have heard her screams (he claims, screams from being tortured).

 

[Planigale]

I am a strong believer in ethical behaviour. I support coming down heavily on officials who abuse their powers or exceed the remit of their office.

What do you do if there is a serious crime or terrorist incident such as the recent Betaclan? At some point, someone has to do the dirty job of finding the perpetrators and questioning witnesses, many of whom will resent it.

This is where the article starts from. Read it!

 

[Vixen]

Wow! You read my post and all you took away is that I said was my cop friends were cockty and arrogant? Talk about a reactionary post! This in a nutshell is why you can't and won't learn. Your mind is filtered against learning.

I'm "reactionary"? LOL. You refuse to expand on your reactionary kneejerk comments such as "BS" (when actually it's because you know I am right) and you think you come across as a liberal. I have news for you buddy.

 

[Planigale]

Italian body language is very different from say, the Brits. I can remember when us Brits never touched, except formally to shake hands, and how embarrassed we all were at first when the new Italian fashion of kissing each other on each cheek came to England (men still don't do it to other men, although they do in Italy). When I visited Tennessee in the US, which I fell deeply truly in love with, I was shocked at how forward young American women were, so likely Amanda's brashness probably did cause a stir amongst the Italians. So yes, body language is cultural in terms of mannerisms.

On the other hand, there is the Autonomous Nervous System over which we have little or no control, for example, breathing and sweating. Lying causes stress in most people, and causes the sweat glands to flow in readiness for fight or flight. This is how lie detectors work. They chart the involuntary increase in moisture when someone lies in response to a question and recorded on a chart.

We tremble if there is an unexpected loud noise, or if we feel fear. This is another sign police might look for.

So you see the difference between cultural and unconscious body language?

ETA the story about Mr Parker and his dear wife. I feel there is more to the story than meets the eye. The writer of the article is simply manipulating the reader to agree with his thesis: 'police interrogation is crap'. It's well known journalistic technique. But it's a logical fallacy to say, therefore Amanda's confession must be false.

Autonomic nervous system. Unlike heart rate or sweating one does have voluntary control of breathing! The respiratory muscles are not innervated by the autonomic nervous system unlike say the heart muscle (autonomic innervation via vagus) or bowel e.g. gastric emptying (again vagal).

 

[acbytesla]

You can't assume the Italian police follow American interview techniques from the '50's. These days, "ethics" are very big on the agenda.

The latter is your words, not Mignini's.

I'm pretty sure the Reid technique was invented in Canada and yes I KNOW that the Italian police were employing it. I'm pretty sure the Italian police admitted this. The fact is while controversial the Reid technique is practiced by police all over the world.

 

[Vixen]

The jury I was on the defense mentioned the police are some of the worst witnesses because they deal with so many things and the fact the trials are often months if not years later. They cant recall details well often needing to use their notes.
Where for a common citizen might be involved once in a lifetime and can possibly recall it better, they arent as calloused and uninterested.

In this case the cops seemed to be biased and self-concerned in closing the case really fast. I also believe they lied about the interrogation not being recorded due to budget issues (per Mignini) . Apparently they commonly leak things to certain favorite press people too.

If a prosecutor lies once, how many other lies does he tell?

Wasnt Napoleoni busted for some kind of bullying, breaking into confidential files and threatening the witness for her ex-husband? Her and a few other corrupt and law breaking police, as I recall.

This case seems to have dishonest police, inexperienced police and then a Prosecutor whose not very bright, and the help from Rome is some mind-reading douchebag Edgardo Giobbi, and the sketchy obstinate Stefonani who together create a pile of rubbish and present this to the unknowing puppet-judges and real judge.

The truth is left to rot away in Rudys sick mind, preventing the Kerchers from ever getting closure.

Of course he's some mind-reading douchebag Edgardo Giobbi in the eyes of murderers who thought they were clever and could get away with their crime. Hey, he's chief cop, not Mr Congeniality.

AIUI Napoleoni was cleared of her disciplinary charge.

Of course police refer to their notes in giving evidence. They are required to write down notes ASAP for future testimony.

 

[Vixen]

Autonomic nervous system. Unlike heart rate or sweating one does have voluntary control of breathing! The respiratory muscles are not innervated by the autonomic nervous system unlike say the heart muscle (autonomic innervation via vagus) or bowel e.g. gastric emptying (again vagal).

Sure we have some control over breathing. However, hold your breath until you pass out and your ANS soon takes over and has you breathing again.

You take 15 breaths a minute. Are you sure you have to think about it?

 

[bagels]

Of course he's some mind-reading douchebag Edgardo Giobbi in the eyes of murderers who thought they were clever and could get away with their crime. Hey, he's chief cop, not Mr Congeniality.

AIUI Napoleoni was cleared of her disciplinary charge.

Of course police refer to their notes in giving evidence. They are required to write down notes ASAP for future testimony.

I'd say he's more like Inspector Clouseau. Amanda masterfully erased every trace of herself from the crime scene, and flawlessly staged her accomplice's exact break-in style down to its idiosyncratic details, but the clueless police missed all this and through their very incompetent reasoning arrived at the correct killer, the mastermind Amanda, entirely by accident. She would have gotten away with it if the FBI or Scotland Yard were on the case

 

[acbytesla]

I'm "reactionary"? LOL. You refuse to expand on your reactionary kneejerk comments such as "BS" (when actually it's because you know I am right) and you think you come across as a liberal. I have news for you buddy.

Excuse me? Do you know what "reactionary" means. I'm not sure what knee-jerk comments you are referring to. Still, I said a hell of a lot more in that post then that some of my cop friends were cocky and arrogant. But those were the two you reacted to. I also said that my cop friends were some of the best people I know and genuinely wanted to help others. I also said that the admitted lying and intimidating suspects to get them to incriminate themseves. And that they considered those to be valuable tactics to have at their disposal.

 

[Vixen]

I'm pretty sure the Reid technique was invented in Canada and yes I KNOW that the Italian police were employing it. I'm pretty sure the Italian police admitted this. The fact is while controversial the Reid technique is practiced by police all over the world.

Put yourself in the shoes of a detective. You have to be able to think like a criminal. You have to have the mind of a chess player, two steps ahead. Funnily enough, as it takes one to know one, there is invariably a game that develops of the criminal trying to outwit the cop and the cop anticipating the antics of the perp.

Raff has the chess player mind. He precluded the cops on several occasions, for example, explaining away Mez' DNA on the knife blade as when he pricked her hand and the shoe prints as, "someone must have borrowed my shoes".

So we see a huge psychological battle develop between Amanda and Raff and the police. The police have an advantage. They have seen it all before (for example, staged burglaries), they have heard all the stories (for example, "I can't remember", seen all the tactics (for example ringing up the dead person, as an alibi).

So, you are an ambitious cop and you are faced with an icy cold supsect determined to outwit you. How would YOU handle it? Do you ensure you've received all the latest interview techniques and received loads of experience? Of course you do. You send in your best cops to deal with it. You don't send in someone who's going to have the whole thing tossed aside as a mistrial.

The guy in the article misrepresented Reid in his three day course and in any case, police in the UK have adopted PEACE, and probably in Italy.

How do you know Italy uses Reid? It's a guess, right?

 

[Grinder]

When writing up their witness statements, police are trained to be highly objective. Thus, a layperson might relate catching a shoplifter like thus:

"I saw this woman who was looking very nervous as she was obviously worried about being caught. She was looking around to make sure no-one saw her. When I approached her, she looked embarrassed and didn't want to give me her name and address as she was worried about what her family would think. She offered to pay as though that would get her off and then tried to rationalise her theft by saying she just wanted to see what it looked like in the daylight outside the shop."

A policeman observing the same situation might write:

"I saw a woman five foot six dark hair shoulder length of Eastern Mediterranean appearance. I watched her, as she stood in the same aisle for ten minutes. I saw her lift an item off the shelf, looking around her as she did so, and place it in her bag. I approached her and noticed she was sweating and trembling profusely. I asked her her name and address and she refused to give it. Her exact words were, "What will my family think?". She then offered £4.99 in payment. She said, "I just wanted to take it outside to see what colour it was in daylight."

Do you see the difference. In the first, the observer is making assumptions based on their own projections. He is attributing emotions and motives to her. He analyses 'body language'. The policeman OTOH is stating objective observable facts. As a judge in a court, which version would you give greater credibility to?

Your posts are reaching either new highs or lows depending on how one looks at it.

Putting an item in one's pocket or purse is not a crime. The policeman had no right to ask her anything and all she needed to do was tell him to **** off.

Neither would make it to court as the woman didn't commit a crime.

The PLE and Gobbi both noticed her body language and decided she was guilty. The little dance step with the booties and reaction to the knives were damning as far as they were concerned. Perhaps you should reread the New Yorker article.

 

[bagels]

Raff has the chess player mind. He precluded the cops on several occasions, for example, ...and the shoe prints as, "someone must have borrowed my shoes".

Did he really say that? Do you have a source?

 

[Grinder]

Cops who trained on a three day course on the John Reid technique.

How do you know how many days and why would that matter.

In fact, people have little more than coin-flipping odds of guessing if someone is telling the truth, and numerous surveys have shown that police do no better. Aldert Vrij, a professor of psychology at the University of Portsmouth, in England, found that law-enforcement experience does not necessarily improve the ability to detect lies. Among police officers, those who said they paid close attention to nonverbal cues did the worst.