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Continuation Part 19: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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We need to make a lawyer available to all if they are suspects. No confession or significant incriminating statement made when questioned without a lawyer should ever be allowed in court.

What sucks is that in Canada is that while you are permitted to speak to a lawyer before a police officer interrogates you, you are not allowed to have one when you are being interrogated. In addition, you are not allowed to refuse to have a police officer speak to you while you can refuse to speak.

Effectively, you can have a police officer telling you that you are guilty and have to confess and you cannot refuse the situation. Now that I have some understanding of the system, I would rather be in a US state without the death penalty in many cases than in Canada because of that.
 
Thanks Bill, I've read some of it and it is a well written and researched article.

“They accused me of hitting the wrong button.” Some even confabulated details, such as “I hit it with the side of my hand.” Not only had they internalized their guilt; they had come up with a story to explain it. Although Kassin made sure to inform the students afterward that the experiment was a hoax, they sometimes replied, “You’re just trying to make me feel better.”

The above fits with Raf and the knife prick.

Vixen I highly recommend you read this. It really seems the two sides of this case and other guilt vs innocent groups hinge on how one accepts confessions and other police techniques. I really have the hardest time understanding why the PGP put such faith in LE. Do they live in fear and think the thin blue line is all that keeps them somewhat safe and any undermining of it will expose them to the underworld?

The other aspect of the article makes clear to me that the police really believe in the technique and when a confession is elicited they have their perp. it explains why they can't stop themselves from perusing the conviction.

We need to make a lawyer available to all if they are suspects. No confession or significant incriminating statement made when questioned without a lawyer should ever be allowed in court.

Grinder! Your comment suggests that you are in agreement with the judges on the ECHR!

54. In this respect, the Court underlines the importance of the investigation stage for the preparation of the criminal proceedings, as the evidence obtained during this stage determines the framework in which the offence charged will be considered at the trial (see Can v. Austria, no. 9300/81, Commission’s report of 12 July 1984, § 50, Series A no. 96). At the same time, an accused often finds himself in a particularly vulnerable position at that stage of the proceedings, the effect of which is amplified by the fact that legislation on criminal procedure tends to become increasingly complex, notably with respect to the rules governing the gathering and use of evidence. In most cases, this particular vulnerability can only be properly compensated for by the assistance of a lawyer whose task it is, among other things, to help to ensure respect of the right of an accused not to incriminate himself. This right indeed presupposes that the prosecution in a criminal case seek to prove their case against the accused without resort to evidence obtained through methods of coercion or oppression in defiance of the will of the accused (see Jalloh v. Germany [GC], no. 54810/00, § 100, ECHR 2006‑IX, and Kolu v. Turkey, no. 35811/97, § 51, 2 August 2005). Early access to a lawyer is part of the procedural safeguards to which the Court will have particular regard when examining whether a procedure has extinguished the very essence of the privilege against self-incrimination (see, mutatis mutandis, Jalloh, cited above, § 101). In this connection, the Court also notes the recommendations of the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (CPT) (see paragraphs 39‑40 above), in which the CPT repeatedly stated that the right of a detainee to have access to legal advice is a fundamental safeguard against ill-treatment. Any exception to the enjoyment of this right should be clearly circumscribed and its application strictly limited in time. These principles are particularly called for in the case of serious charges, for it is in the face of the heaviest penalties that respect for the right to a fair trial is to be ensured to the highest possible degree by democratic societies.

55. Against this background, the Court finds that in order for the right to a fair trial to remain sufficiently “practical and effective” (see paragraph 51 above), Article 6 § 1 requires that, as a rule, access to a lawyer should be provided as from the first interrogation of a suspect by the police, unless it is demonstrated in the light of the particular circumstances of each case that there are compelling reasons to restrict this right. Even where compelling reasons may exceptionally justify denial of access to a lawyer, such restriction – whatever its justification – must not unduly prejudice the rights of the accused under Article 6 (see, mutatis mutandis, Magee, cited above, § 44). The rights of the defence will in principle be irretrievably prejudiced when incriminating statements made during police interrogation without access to a lawyer are used for a conviction.

From: SALDUZ v. TURKEY 36391/02 [GC]
 
Thanks Bill, I've read some of it and it is a well written and researched article.

“They accused me of hitting the wrong button.” Some even confabulated details, such as “I hit it with the side of my hand.” Not only had they internalized their guilt; they had come up with a story to explain it. Although Kassin made sure to inform the students afterward that the experiment was a hoax, they sometimes replied, “You’re just trying to make me feel better.”

The above fits with Raf and the knife prick.

Vixen I highly recommend you read this. It really seems the two sides of this case and other guilt vs innocent groups hinge on how one accepts confessions and other police techniques. I really have the hardest time understanding why the PGP put such faith in LE. Do they live in fear and think the thin blue line is all that keeps them somewhat safe and any undermining of it will expose them to the underworld?

The other aspect of the article makes clear to me that the police really believe in the technique and when a confession is elicited they have their perp. it explains why they can't stop themselves from perusing the conviction.

We need to make a lawyer available to all if they are suspects. No confession or significant incriminating statement made when questioned without a lawyer should ever be allowed in court.

I'm confident that she is not interested in anything that might alter her judgment paradigm. Kassim points out how normally reasonable can't believe that an innocent person would confess. That it locks up their view in stone.

For me, reading this reminds me of what a lawyer pretty much tells every client and that is to STFU. Everything is about tricking you into telling them what they want to hear and believe.

As I have mentioned a thousand times before I have friends on the Seattle Police Department which includes my best friend, his sister, his brother in law and his father in law and many of their friends. I've been to parties with 30 cops and just a few civilians. I'm also the liberal that drives them crazy. For the most part, these are some of the best people I know. They genuinely want to help others. But they also can be very cocky and arrogant. They have often confided that they get suspects to incriminate themselves. Lying and intimidation are considered valid tactics. The last thing in the world they would want is to have this taken away from them.
 
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Thanks Bill, I've read some of it and it is a well written and researched article.

“They accused me of hitting the wrong button.” Some even confabulated details, such as “I hit it with the side of my hand.” Not only had they internalized their guilt; they had come up with a story to explain it. Although Kassin made sure to inform the students afterward that the experiment was a hoax, they sometimes replied, “You’re just trying to make me feel better.”

The above fits with Raf and the knife prick.

Vixen I highly recommend you read this. It really seems the two sides of this case and other guilt vs innocent groups hinge on how one accepts confessions and other police techniques. I really have the hardest time understanding why the PGP put such faith in LE. Do they live in fear and think the thin blue line is all that keeps them somewhat safe and any undermining of it will expose them to the underworld?

The other aspect of the article makes clear to me that the police really believe in the technique and when a confession is elicited they have their perp. it explains why they can't stop themselves from perusing the conviction.

We need to make a lawyer available to all if they are suspects. No confession or significant incriminating statement made when questioned without a lawyer should ever be allowed in court.

Because of these issues in the UK the Reid technique is not used. Instead in concert with psychologists and lawyers the police developed the PEACE technique.
http://www.internetjournalofcrimino..._interview_criminal_suspects_ijc_dec_2012.pdf
This is an excellent review of police questioning. If Vixen were to read it he would understand that false confessions is not an issue that only Kassim is concerned about but many other psychologist have researched.
 
Thanks Bill, I've read some of it and it is a well written and researched article.

“They accused me of hitting the wrong button.” Some even confabulated details, such as “I hit it with the side of my hand.” Not only had they internalized their guilt; they had come up with a story to explain it. Although Kassin made sure to inform the students afterward that the experiment was a hoax, they sometimes replied, “You’re just trying to make me feel better.”

The above fits with Raf and the knife prick.

Vixen I highly recommend you read this. It really seems the two sides of this case and other guilt vs innocent groups hinge on how one accepts confessions and other police techniques. I really have the hardest time understanding why the PGP put such faith in LE. Do they live in fear and think the thin blue line is all that keeps them somewhat safe and any undermining of it will expose them to the underworld?

The other aspect of the article makes clear to me that the police really believe in the technique and when a confession is elicited they have their perp. it explains why they can't stop themselves from perusing the conviction.

We need to make a lawyer available to all if they are suspects. No confession or significant incriminating statement made when questioned without a lawyer should ever be allowed in court.


I thought it very silly that the writer of the article expected to be a fully trained detective after a three-day training course:

After three days of Reid training, my classmates and I, newly versed in the subtleties of body language, gestured carefully in the hall and elevators, lest we unintentionally give something away. At the end, Senese gave us our certificates and left us with some closing remarks.

Body language is very cultural and even if you do detect lying, so what? How do you act on it? Several of my colleagues in Insolvency Practice went on the American Certified Fraud Examiners (_?) course. Heck, it is a long course, lasting years. You cannot be a fraud expert after a couple of seminars, and has little to do with 'body language'. Some of the best crooks are incredibly plausible in how they present themselves.

A lot of these guys making 'false confessions' were just lying. More fool them for being liars in the first place.

Not to say there is nothing in it. As an accountant, I have seen crooks and embezzlers sweat and tremble profusely when caught red-handed.
 
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You can't assume the Italian police follow American interview techniques from the '50's. These days, "ethics" are very big on the agenda.

The latter is your words, not Mignini's.

It wasn't Mignini that originated it.

Here is what the cops were saying at the calumny trial:

3. Machiavelli Reports From Trial 7 September

1. Tweets from the Florence court:
16. Zugarini was present throughout the interrogation and described when #amandaknox started to cry, remembered her peculiar hand-ear gestures.

15. Napoleoni testified #amandaknox was brought a chamomille when she started crying at 01:45, the interrogation was immediately stopped.

14. Napoleoni and Zugarini said they “cuddled” Knox because she was a 20-year old girl.
13. Both Mignini and Zugarini described having had impression that #amandaknox was feeling “relieved of a burden” after accusing Lumumba.

12. Mignini said Knox was not clearly a suspect to him by the 05:45 interrogation.​
 
I'm confident that she is not interested in anything that might alter her judgment paradigm. Kassim points out how normally reasonable can't believe that an innocent person would confess. That it locks up their view in stone.

For me, reading this reminds me of what a lawyer pretty much tells every client and that is to STFU. Everything is about tricking you into telling them what they want to hear and believe.

As I have mentioned a thousand times before I have friends on the Seattle Police Department which includes my best friend, his sister, his brother in law and his father in law and many of their friends. I've been to parties with 30 cops and just a few civilians. I'm also the liberal that drives them crazy. For the most part, these are some of the best people I know. They genuinely want to help others. But they also can be very cocky and arrogant. They have often confided that they get suspects to incriminate themselves. Lying and intimidation are considered valid tactics. The last thing in the world they would want is to have this taken away from them.

I've met criminals who are also "very cocky and arrogant". They hate the police with a vengeance and have a slavish adoration of people like Ronnie Biggs, completely forgetting that the train driver of the so-called Great Train Robbery died of his injuries - likely sustained from Ronnie Biggs - some years later. When the film 'Get Carter' was re-released a few years ago, the cinema was full of 'villains' from all over London. (Paradoxically, it happens to be one of my favourite films and the soundtrack is amazing. ) People always forget the victim. I don't see it as being bleeding heart 'liberal' to forget the victim and advocate for the exoneration of the rightly convicted.

I have peers who work in national security and you'd be amazed what a fantastic job they do keeping our borders safe, for all the criticism levelled by trendies.
 
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Body language is very cultural and even if you do detect lying, so what? How do you act on it?

So even if the ILE could read Italian body language they wouldn't be able to read a person from the other side of the world's body language? Yeah I can agree on that.

A lot of these guys making 'false confessions' were just lying. More fool them for being liars in the first place.

Que?

I was handed my psychology degree at the award ceremony by the late great Stan Milgram (the one-in-ten social psychologist). It was an honour, because for my second year optional subjects, I had chosen Criminology and Social Psychology. Body language was a tiny, tiny element of the course, compared to say, physiology, mostly of the brain and the body's hormone systems, which was 10% of the course, and based on real human biology. Indeed, you had to have foundation Biology to even get on the course. Body language is seen as 'pop' psychology and near meaningless to serious psychologists.

Yes the PLE were experts in "physiology, mostly of the brain and the body's hormone systems" they all had doctorates like Steffi? :( Perhaps you should go back and read all your favorite accounts and note how many body language elements were key to the PLE and Giobbi.

One thing I did discover in designing one of the compulsory fourteen 'lab reports' experiments was that you could get your subjects (mostly other students) to do whatever you asked. Kassin getting his to 'confess' to keystroke errors seemed to show an element of the 'halo effect'; Kassin, being so contemptuous of the police quasi-psychology methods based on 'pop' psychology 'body language', he geared his experiments to highlight how erroneous their methods were.

Not to say there is nothing in it. As an accountant, I have seen crooks and embezzlers sweat and tremble profusely when caught red-handed.

I would imagine the innocent might sweat and tremble in the presence of certain people.

It isn't just Kassin as the article points out. Did you read to the end? Reid's first case turned out to be a false confession and the poor man served 20 years for losing his dear wife to murdered.
 
Amanda gave a masterful performance of someone cracking under the force and stress of a coercive manipulative interrogation while simultaneously maintaining complete control not letting slip a single detail of the crime knowing Patrick would be exonerated, the interrogation wouldn't be recorded, and no evidence would ever tie her to the murder, and the police would themselves admit they believed the Patrick theory to be correct, so that she could eventually win $10,000 when the ECHR settled her case 15 years down the road.
 
Because of these issues in the UK the Reid technique is not used. Instead in concert with psychologists and lawyers the police developed the PEACE technique.
http://www.internetjournalofcrimino..._interview_criminal_suspects_ijc_dec_2012.pdf
This is an excellent review of police questioning. If Vixen were to read it he would understand that false confessions is not an issue that only Kassim is concerned about but many other psychologist have researched.

I am a strong believer in ethical behaviour. I support coming down heavily on officials who abuse their powers or exceed the remit of their office.

What do you do if there is a serious crime or terrorist incident such as the recent Betaclan? At some point, someone has to do the dirty job of finding the perpetrators and questioning witnesses, many of whom will resent it.
 
Amanda gave a masterful performance of someone cracking under the force and stress of a coercive manipulative interrogation while simultaneously maintaining complete control not letting slip a single detail of the crime knowing Patrick would be exonerated, the interrogation wouldn't be recorded, and no evidence would ever tie her to the murder, and the police would themselves admit they believed the Patrick theory to be correct, so that she could eventually win $10,000 when the ECHR settled her case 15 years down the road.

Was it you that pointed out she mentioned the mistreatment the next day and she couldn't know there was no recording of her interrogation?

But she mentioned sex and a scream. How could she possibly have imagined that?
 
I am a strong believer in ethical behaviour. I support coming down heavily on officials who abuse their powers or exceed the remit of their office.

What do you do if there is a serious crime or terrorist incident such as the recent Betaclan? At some point, someone has to do the dirty job of finding the perpetrators and questioning witnesses, many of whom will resent it.

It is because some people's uber fear that the terrorists are winning by taking our liberty. Those that wish to restrict freedom use the fear of some outside threat as the reason.

Those on the other side of this seem more than willing to have many false convictions in order to make them safer in their minds.
 
Amanda Knox's Odd Behavior Focus of Testimony
By ANN WISE ROME, March 13, 2009

Amanda Knox's odd behavior in the days after her roommate was found stabbed to death was once again a focal point of police testimony in her Italian murder trail today.

Police described a young woman who was calm when others were crying but at times slapped herself in the head, and at one point began shaking uncontrollably and sobbing.
 
You can't assume the Italian police follow American interview techniques from the '50's. These days, "ethics" are very big on the agenda.

The latter is your words, not Mignini's.

You are correct. But acc. to John Follain, they were also Fabio D'Astolto's words.

The night Amanda and Raffaele spent all night at the Questura for questioning (early morning of 3rd).....

Follain p. 99 said:
At about 4 am or 5 am, as dawn was about to break, Fabio D'Astolto, an officer who spoke English, saw Amanda pacing nervously up and down a corridor, beating her head with the palms of her hands.​

D'Astolto, acc. to Follain, thought she might hit her head on a wall.

Further, acc. to Follain, Mignini also observed this behaviour. After the second interrogation where Mignini never spoke and said he intuited that Amanda was relieved of a burden, was afraid of Patrick, and wanted to continue talking - all intuited by him without asking about those things - this behaviour was so important to Mignini (again, acc. to Follain) that he broke his silence to note the behaviour....

Follain p. 137 said:
Amanda stopped talking. She was in tears and Mignini, who had been scrutinizing her carefully, broke his silence to dictate to the assistant transcribing her words: 'It is noted that Knox repeatedly raises her hands to her head and shakes it.'​

All these, apparently, are important clues as to Amanda's guilt.

Then there's that great part where Mignini says he finds her sincere in her fear of Lumumba, but then Follain goes on to relate that:
- Mignini had to arrest Lumumba because Amanda accused him
- Mignini regarded Amanda as a liar and an actress.​

Thanks for reminding me of how Follain put it.....
 
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So even if the ILE could read Italian body language they wouldn't be able to read a person from the other side of the world's body language? Yeah I can agree on that.



Que?



Yes the PLE were experts in "physiology, mostly of the brain and the body's hormone systems" they all had doctorates like Steffi? :( Perhaps you should go back and read all your favorite accounts and note how many body language elements were key to the PLE and Giobbi.



I would imagine the innocent might sweat and tremble in the presence of certain people.

It isn't just Kassin as the article points out. Did you read to the end? Reid's first case turned out to be a false confession and the poor man served 20 years for losing his dear wife to murdered.

Italian body language is very different from say, the Brits. I can remember when us Brits never touched, except formally to shake hands, and how embarrassed we all were at first when the new Italian fashion of kissing each other on each cheek came to England (men still don't do it to other men, although they do in Italy). When I visited Tennessee in the US, which I fell deeply truly in love with, I was shocked at how forward young American women were, so likely Amanda's brashness probably did cause a stir amongst the Italians. So yes, body language is cultural in terms of mannerisms.

On the other hand, there is the Autonomous Nervous System over which we have little or no control, for example, breathing and sweating. Lying causes stress in most people, and causes the sweat glands to flow in readiness for fight or flight. This is how lie detectors work. They chart the involuntary increase in moisture when someone lies in response to a question and recorded on a chart.

We tremble if there is an unexpected loud noise, or if we feel fear. This is another sign police might look for.

So you see the difference between cultural and unconscious body language?

ETA the story about Mr Parker and his dear wife. I feel there is more to the story than meets the eye. The writer of the article is simply manipulating the reader to agree with his thesis: 'police interrogation is crap'. It's well known journalistic technique. But it's a logical fallacy to say, therefore Amanda's confession must be false.
 
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I've met criminals who are also "very cocky and arrogant". They hate the police with a vengeance and have a slavish adoration of people like Ronnie Biggs, completely forgetting that the train driver of the so-called Great Train Robbery died of his injuries - likely sustained from Ronnie Biggs - some years later. When the film 'Get Carter' was re-released a few years ago, the cinema was full of 'villains' from all over London. (Paradoxically, it happens to be one of my favourite films and the soundtrack is amazing. ) People always forget the victim. I don't see it as being bleeding heart 'liberal' to forget the victim and advocate for the exoneration of the rightly convicted.

I have peers who work in national security and you'd be amazed what a fantastic job they do keeping our borders safe, for all the criticism levelled by trendies.

You don't know any people in national security. Your previous post also shows that that you did not read the article because tests have shown that trained cops are worse at detecting deception than a college student.
 
I've met criminals who are also "very cocky and arrogant". They hate the police with a vengeance and have a slavish adoration of people like Ronnie Biggs, completely forgetting that the train driver of the so-called Great Train Robbery died of his injuries - likely sustained from Ronnie Biggs - some years later. When the film 'Get Carter' was re-released a few years ago, the cinema was full of 'villains' from all over London. (Paradoxically, it happens to be one of my favourite films and the soundtrack is amazing. ) People always forget the victim. I don't see it as being bleeding heart 'liberal' to forget the victim and advocate for the exoneration of the rightly convicted.

I have peers who work in national security and you'd be amazed what a fantastic job they do keeping our borders safe, for all the criticism levelled by trendies.

Wow! You read my post and all you took away is that I said was my cop friends were cockty and arrogant? Talk about a reactionary post! This in a nutshell is why you can't and won't learn. Your mind is filtered against learning.
 
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It wasn't Mignini that originated it.

Here is what the cops were saying at the calumny trial:

3. Machiavelli Reports From Trial 7 September

1. Tweets from the Florence court:
16. Zugarini was present throughout the interrogation and described when #amandaknox started to cry, remembered her peculiar hand-ear gestures.

15. Napoleoni testified #amandaknox was brought a chamomille when she started crying at 01:45, the interrogation was immediately stopped.

14. Napoleoni and Zugarini said they “cuddled” Knox because she was a 20-year old girl.
13. Both Mignini and Zugarini described having had impression that #amandaknox was feeling “relieved of a burden” after accusing Lumumba.

12. Mignini said Knox was not clearly a suspect to him by the 05:45 interrogation.​


When writing up their witness statements, police are trained to be highly objective. Thus, a layperson might relate catching a shoplifter like thus:

"I saw this woman who was looking very nervous as she was obviously worried about being caught. She was looking around to make sure no-one saw her. When I approached her, she looked embarrassed and didn't want to give me her name and address as she was worried about what her family would think. She offered to pay as though that would get her off and then tried to rationalise her theft by saying she just wanted to see what it looked like in the daylight outside the shop."

A policeman observing the same situation might write:

"I saw a woman five foot six dark hair shoulder length of Eastern Mediterranean appearance. I watched her, as she stood in the same aisle for ten minutes. I saw her lift an item off the shelf, looking around her as she did so, and place it in her bag. I approached her and noticed she was sweating and trembling profusely. I asked her her name and address and she refused to give it. Her exact words were, "What will my family think?". She then offered £4.99 in payment. She said, "I just wanted to take it outside to see what colour it was in daylight."

Do you see the difference. In the first, the observer is making assumptions based on their own projections. He is attributing emotions and motives to her. He analyses 'body language'. The policeman OTOH is stating objective observable facts. As a judge in a court, which version would you give greater credibility to?
 
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The jury I was on the defense mentioned the police are some of the worst witnesses because they deal with so many things and the fact the trials are often months if not years later. They cant recall details well often needing to use their notes.
Where for a common citizen might be involved once in a lifetime and can possibly recall it better, they arent as calloused and uninterested.

In this case the cops seemed to be biased and self-concerned in closing the case really fast. I also believe they lied about the interrogation not being recorded due to budget issues (per Mignini) . Apparently they commonly leak things to certain favorite press people too.

If a prosecutor lies once, how many other lies does he tell?

Wasnt Napoleoni busted for some kind of bullying, breaking into confidential files and threatening the witness for her ex-husband? Her and a few other corrupt and law breaking police, as I recall.

This case seems to have dishonest police, inexperienced police and then a Prosecutor whose not very bright, and the help from Rome is some mind-reading douchebag Edgardo Giobbi, and the sketchy obstinate Stefonani who together create a pile of rubbish and present this to the unknowing puppet-judges and real judge.

The truth is left to rot away in Rudys sick mind, preventing the Kerchers from ever getting closure.
 
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