JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

[manifesto]

Why would it matter if a witness is reliable or not when we have physical evidence for their story?
You don't have to believe her story... She has photos.

Well, I'm not convinced of the chain of custody on any of them.

Are you?

Remember. The alternative hypothesis is that Oswald was framed as a Patsy for the assassination of JFK. Oswald said he was "just a patsy" and that his head had been superimposed on another persons body in the backyard photos.

I trust Oswald much more than the DPD.

 

[Axxman300]

Don't know, but a qualified guess would be that it was cheap, foreign and sold only through post order, making it ideal for creating a false paper trail connecting Oswald with the murder weapon.

The ad he ordered the rifle from featured Enfields, Springfields, and the M-1 Garand. The Carcano was the cheapest one on the page.

The W-commission came to the conclusion that he couldn't have been on that firing range, and that the witnesses had to be mistaken.

He went there at least three times.

Yes, Oswald was sent from Fort Worth to Dallas to New Orleans, and back to Dallas to a workplace perfectly located on the presidential route.

Then why was Oswald scouting other locations overlooking the parade route?

You do not know enough to speculate "easier ways" or more "rational ways".

I understand problem solving. I understand logistics. I understand rifles.

I studied the assassination for 30 years and accumulated a decent library on the subject. I know all the players in the CT circus, and I have seen them all come and go.

I went to Dallas, I walked the kill-zone, I went to the 6th floor. It was an easy shot. That's when I realized that so much assassination lore is based on lies, some spread by well-meaning soft-headed people, but lies just the same.

CIA's terror campaign Operation Phoenix, killing and torturing hundreds of thousands vietnamese farmers, winning the hearts and minds in its war on communism? Woo?

Hundreds of thousands? Hardly. Phoenix effectively shut the Viet Cong down by 1972.

CIA's assassination of Che Guevara?

Who cares? Killing Guevara was the CIA's job, and putting him in the ground was a good thing to do. I knew a guy who was on that team. He was asthmatic, and they staked out a bunch of pharmacies until his girlfriend showed up to get his meds, then trailed her back to him.

All of those thing you list happened during the Cold War and ignores the fact that they were done in response to Soviet actions. Not saying they were the right thing to do, just that they need to be placed in context.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Well, I'm not convinced of the chain of custody on any of them.

Are you?

Remember. The alternative hypothesis is that Oswald was framed as a Patsy for the assassination of JFK. Oswald said he was "just a patsy" and that his head had been superimposed on another persons body in the backyard photos.

I trust Oswald much more than the DPD.

Again, why would we care who you believe, trust, or are mildly suspicious of, when we have the photos to test?

 

[manifesto]

The ad he ordered the rifle from featured Enfields, Springfields, and the M-1 Garand. The Carcano was the cheapest one on the page.

Yes?

He went there at least three times.

Not according to the WC or HSCA, no. But I agree, it is highly suspect of being some of the efforts to incriminate Oswald with a double, yes.

Then why was Oswald scouting other locations overlooking the parade route?

Double.

I understand problem solving. I understand logistics. I understand rifles.

Yes, but this doesn't give you access to the minds of the perpetrators, does it.

I studied the assassination for 30 years and accumulated a decent library on the subject. I know all the players in the CT circus, and I have seen them all come and go.

And who's to blame for the "circus"?

I went to Dallas, I walked the kill-zone, I went to the 6th floor. It was an easy shot.

Yes, if the weapon was ok it would have been a fairly easy shot, but the weapon (CE-139) was far from ok. That is way no one of the expert snipers succeeded to replicate it.

And, I doubt you know anything of the case if this is a good reason to discard any reason to suspect a conspiracy and a cover up of the assassination..

That's when I realized that so much assassination lore is based on lies, some spread by well-meaning soft-headed people, but lies just the same.

There are theories that are out there, yes. So what?

Hundreds of thousands? Hardly. Phoenix effectively shut the Viet Cong down by 1972.

Yes, hundreds of thousands tortured, wounded and killed. Not to mention CIA's role in pushing a war that killed millions of innocent civilians and 60 000 thousand young americans with their whole life in front of them.

Who cares? Killing Guevara was the CIA's job, and putting him in the ground was a good thing to do.

No matter what you think of him, CIA killed him and this is one example of assassination of popular foreign leaders fighting for independence and justice for the downtrodden and exploited.

I knew a guy who was on that team. He was asthmatic, and they staked out a bunch of pharmacies until his girlfriend showed up to get his meds, then trailed her back to him.

Poor guy. Who was he? Morales?

All of those thing you list happened during the Cold War and ignores the fact that they were done in response to Soviet actions. Not saying they were the right thing to do, just that they need to be placed in context.

No, not as a response. They were rationalised as preemptive anti soviet actions, but in most instances the motive was purely economic/imperialistic with a total disregard of democracy and peoples right to self determination.

And, yes, the JFK assassination has to be analysed in the Cold war context in order to make sense. Correct.

 

[manifesto]

As expected, Manifesto, after reading up on the paper trail of the rifle, apparently decided not to address my points at all, but argue some other ones. He thereby avoids admitting he was ever wrong on any of his claims.

Ok, I have to admit I'm not an american and therefore not familiar with the finer details of what constitutes a proper paper trail from a US PMO.

1. Oswald is filling in the coupon and pay the money for the MO to the GOP.

2. He put the MO and the coupon in an envelope adressed to Klein's in Chicago.

3. Post it.

4. The envelope arrives at Klein's and they microfilm the coupon and the envelope. but not the MO.

5. Klein's discard the coupon and the envelope, stamp the money order and send to the bank for further endorsement in the Federal Reserve banking system, ending up in USPS archive at NARA, VA.

Correct?

- How does the money get from Dallas GOP to Klein's in this system?

- Where is the MO today?

- Where is the Klein's original microfilm of the coupon and envelope today?

- Why no microfilm of the MO at Klein's?

 

[HSienzant]

Ok, fair enough. In the case of Oswald buying and owning the proposed murder weapon (CE-139) there are a multitude of problems with the evidence put forward by the FBI and the WC:


1. Most important. All the documents put forward by the FBI are copies of film of the originals, not the original documents. The originals are these days nowhere to be found.

2. The order is not for the model archived in NARA (CE-139), it's for a Mannlicher Carcano 36" Carbine with a mounted scope. The CE-139 is a Mannlicher Carcano 40" Short Rifle with a mounted scope, which was not on sale at the time of the proposed purchase.

3. The HSCA hand writing experts could not make a definitive ID on Oswalds proposed handwritten text's because copies of photographs of originals are missing sufficient properties for this to be made.

4. Oswald was at work both when supposed to go to the Dallas down town post office for the money order, and when supposed to pick up the package from the same office. This in spite of a detailed time chart showing him working with material from seven different customers the day of the proposed purchase.

5. The proposed money order are not stamped with the three obligatory bank stamps showing that it has went through the federal reserve banking system necessary for the purchase to go through.

6. No regulated forms for selling and receiving fire arms through the USPS are signed and on record.

7. The "part three" of Oswalds post-box application were missing in spite of regulations saying it must be archived at least two years after closing the account. "Part three" is were other individuals are named as allowed entrance to the post-box.

8. An internal memo from the Dallas FBI to D.C. HQ that says that no "A. Hidell" is named on the "part three" which indicate that Postal Inspector Harry Holmes was lying when testifying that "part three" had been routinely destroyed.

9. Postal regulations doesn't allow for third party (A. Hidell) to pick up post/packages without being on "part three" of the post-box application. H. Holmes was lying in this instance too.

10. The money order serial number were not in order, it should have been sent ca 1,5 years later given the rate of outgoing money orders from Dallas USPS.

11. The money order stub, found by the notorious Mr H. Holmes, disappeared and were nowhere to be found.

12. The money order were found by an to this day unknown NARA employee in D.C., not in Kansas City where it should have been.


There's much more to it but I stop here for now. Now, tell me on what grounds you are asserting that Oswald/A. Hidell bought and owned the proposed murder weapon, CE-139.

Plz.

Just a reminder that you haven't addressed the first point - that I went to a lot of trouble to respond to - whatsoever.

Please see and respond to these posts concerning your arguments regarding all those points you raised above. Most of the below concentrates on your arguments regarding point one alone. You have yet to address any of this.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11029667&postcount=503

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11044828&postcount=575

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11044847&postcount=577

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11044963&postcount=580

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11045829&postcount=587

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11046072&postcount=593

 

[HSienzant]

Why would it matter if a witness is reliable or not when we have physical evidence for their story?
You don't have to believe her story... She has photos

Well, I'm not convinced of the chain of custody on any of them.

Chain of custody? On photos? Besides being an appeal to personal incredulity, it's been established beyond any doubt the backyard photos were determined to have been taken in the Oswald's Imperial Reflex camera to the exclusion of all other cameras in the world:

Mr. EISENBERG. How would you characterize this camera in terms of expense, Mr. Shaneyfelt?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. It is a relatively inexpensive camera. It is what we refer to as a fixed-focus box-type camera. A simple box-type camera with a simple one-shutter speed and no focusing ability, fixed focus.
Mr. EISENBERG. Do you know where the camera was made?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. It was made in the United States At the base of the camera it has the name Imperial Reflex, made in U.S.A., on the front, below the lens.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Shaneyfelt, did you compare the negative, Exhibit 749, with the camera, Exhibit 750, to determine whether the negative had been taken in that camera to the exclusion of all other cameras?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I did.
Mr. EISENBERG. What conclusion did you come to?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. I reached the conclusion that the negative, which is Commission Exhibit 749, was exposed in the camera, Commission Exhibit 750, and no other camera.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain how you were able to arrive at such a conclusion?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I can.

(please read the link for further details).
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/shaneyf1.htm

The HSCA photographic panel confirmed Shaneyfelt's conclusions.
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol6/html/HSCA_Vol6_0084a.htm

Are you?

Yes, because the science proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Remember. The alternative hypothesis is that Oswald was framed as a Patsy for the assassination of JFK. Oswald said he was "just a patsy" and that his head had been superimposed on another persons body in the backyard photos.

And we can trust persons arrested for crimes because they have no possible reason to lie? Is that seriously your argument?

Well, regardless, we know that Oswald was lying, because the same photographic experts found no evidence of tampering in the photos. Ergo, Oswald was lying.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Captain Fritz of the Dallas Police has stated that in his interrogations, Oswald--Lee Harvey Oswald--stated, in effect, that while the face in Exhibit 133A was his face, the rest of the picture was not of him--this is, that it was a composite of some
Have you examined 133A and 133B to determine whether either or both are composite pictures?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have.
Mr. EISENBERG. And have you--can you give us your conclusion on that question?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; it is my opinion that they are not composites. Again with very, very minor reservation, because I cannot entirely eliminate an extremely expert composite. I have examined many composite photographs, and there is always an inconsistency, either in lighting of the portion that is added, or the configuration indicating a different lens used for the part that was added to the original photograph, things many times that you can't point to and say this is a characteristic, or that is a characteristic, but they have definite variations that are not consistent throughout the picture. I found no such characteristics in this
In addition, with a composite it is always necessary to make a print that you then make a pasteup of. In this instance paste the face in, and rephotograph it and then retouch out the area where the head was cut out, which would leave a characteristic that would be retouched out on the negative and then that would be printed.
Normally, this retouching can be seen under magnification in the resulting composite--points can be seen where the edge of the head had been added and it hadn't been entirely retouched
This can nearly always be detected under magnification. I found no such characteristics in these pictures.
Representative FORD. Did you use the technique of magnification in your analysis?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes.
In addition, in this instance regarding Commission Exhibit 133B which I have just stated, I have identified as being photographed or exposed in the camera which is Exhibit 750, for this to be a composite, they would have had to make a picture of the background with an individual standing there, and then substitute the face, and retouch it and then possibly rephotograph it and retouch that negative, and make a print, and then photograph it with this camera, which is Commission Exhibit 750, in order to have this negative which we have identified with the camera, and is Commission Exhibit
This to me is beyond reasonable doubt, it just doesn't seem that it-would be at all possible, in this particular photograph.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol6/html/HSCA_Vol6_0076b.htm

I trust Oswald much more than the DPD.

Your distrust would have to extend to the FBI photographic expert, Shaneyfelt, as well as the HSCA panel of photographic experts, wouldn't it?

Their conclusions were, among others, no fakery evident in the photos (hence, Oswald was lying) and the extant negative was taken in the Oswald's camera, to the exclusion of all other cameras in the world.

So you're pitting an accused man's denial's against all the science in the world, and siding with the accused man. Curious. I have to ask, would you ever convict anyone of anything, given that level of distrust of the official conclusions?

Hank

PS: When do intend to address those twelve points YOU RAISED?

 

[Garrison]

CTs never explain why whichever shadowy group was behind the assassination chose a plan with such a ridiculously high chance of failure. All it takes is a little drizzle in Dalla for Kennedy to put the top on the car and thwart the plan.

 

[manifesto]

CTs never explain why whichever shadowy group was behind the assassination chose a plan with such a ridiculously high chance of failure. All it takes is a little drizzle in Dalla for Kennedy to put the top on the car and thwart the plan.

The bubble top had made it harder, but still possible, but yes, risky plans fail all the time, hence the word, "risky."

Before Dallas there were at least three known similar assassination attempts on JFK. Tampa, Miami and Chicago. High office building, rifles, designated patsy very similar that of Oswald.

They could also have had a plan B and C while still in Dallas. Maybe a road bomb. Maybe snipers at the Trade Mart. Maybe an ambush after the Trade Mart on the way back to Love Field.

Speculation. Better to focus on the cover up where The Evidence Is The Conspiracy.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Ah and now see the snowballing of claims without evidence.

The photos are faked, with no evidence of fakery.

Fingerprints are faked, with no trace of fakery.

The autopsy photographs are faked... With no evidence.

And now Oswald has a double.

Place your bets now: Fingerprinting will be an impeachable technique when Malcme Wallace was in the frame and not Oswald, a shilling gets you a pound note...

 

[Garrison]

The bubble top had made it harder, but still possible, but yes, risky plans fail all the time, hence the word, "risky."

Before Dallas there were at least three known similar assassination attempts on JFK. Tampa, Miami and Chicago. High office building, rifles, designated patsy very similar that of Oswald.

They could also have had a plan B and C while still in Dallas. Maybe a road bomb. Maybe snipers at the Trade Mart. Maybe an ambush after the Trade Mart on the way back to Love Field.

Speculation. Better to focus on the cover up where The Evidence Is The Conspiracy.

But you have no evidence, just a remix of Ctist greatest hits that have been demolished time and again. You offer up these alleged other plans as a rebuttal but don't or can't offer any evidence to support them. Hearsay, flawed analysis, and 'anomalies' that's all you have, and that does not constitute evidence.

 

[manifesto]

But you have no evidence, just a remix of Ctist greatest hits that have been demolished time and again. You offer up these alleged other plans as a rebuttal but don't or can't offer any evidence to support them. Hearsay, flawed analysis, and 'anomalies' that's all you have, and that does not constitute evidence.

Oh yes, there are different types of evidence for these three incidents. Witness testimony, tape recordings, coincidental evidence and most important, consciously destruction of evidence in spite of being requested several times by authorities and by law to hand it over.

Two things:

1. The gist of my argument is that we do not know the minds and plans of the guilty parties since we still do not know for certain who they are. Speculation is therefore shaky at best. Better to focus on the cover up, to show that the evidence is not showing what it is supposed to show and take it from there.

2. I'm not prepared to discuss this issue any further at the present moment since my time is limited and there are so many of you in the herd. One at the time, in due course.


I'm still waiting for my answers to HSienzant to get approved by the admin.

 

[HSienzant]

Ok, I have to admit I'm not an american and therefore not familiar with the finer details of what constitutes a proper paper trail from a US PMO.

1. Oswald is filling in the coupon and pay the money for the MO to the GOP.

2. He put the MO and the coupon in an envelope adressed to Klein's in Chicago.

3. Post it.

4. The envelope arrives at Klein's and they microfilm the coupon and the envelope. but not the MO.

5. Klein's discard the coupon and the envelope, stamp the money order and send to the bank for further endorsement in the Federal Reserve banking system, ending up in USPS archive at NARA, VA.

Correct?

- How does the money get from Dallas GOP to Klein's in this system?

- Where is the MO today?

- Where is the Klein's original microfilm of the coupon and envelope today?

- Why no microfilm of the MO at Klein's?

Give a conspiracy theorist answers and he just changes the questions.

I gave you the answers.

Now how about answering some of my questions?

Hank

 

[Armitage72]

Today's Pearls Before Swine has a character reading a book about the assassination of President Garfield. Someone in the comments decided to make a comment contrasting the social impacts of Garfield and McKinley's assassinations versus Lincoln and Kennedy's assassinations.
This led to someone making the following comment:

How many people really understand that Kennedy was killed because he was doing away with the Federal Reserve and putting the U.S. back on a firm fiscal foundation?

Maybe it's just because I'm not a big aficionado of Kennedy conspiracy theories, but that's one I haven't heard before.
It's not quite as good as the claim I once heard that Kennedy was assassinated because he was planning to give a speech going public with the US government's secret diplomatic dealings with the Greys. (Two great tastes that taste great together.)

 

[BStrong]

The bubble top had made it harder, but still possible, but yes, risky plans fail all the time, hence the word, "risky."

Before Dallas there were at least three known similar assassination attempts on JFK. Tampa, Miami and Chicago. High office building, rifles, designated patsy very similar that of Oswald.

They could also have had a plan B and C while still in Dallas. Maybe a road bomb. Maybe snipers at the Trade Mart. Maybe an ambush after the Trade Mart on the way back to Love Field.

Speculation. Better to focus on the cover up where The Evidence Is The Conspiracy.

Please define "attempts."

 

[KDLarsen]

Maybe it's just because I'm not a big aficionado of Kennedy conspiracy theories, but that's one I haven't heard before.
It's not quite as good as the claim I once heard that Kennedy was assassinated because he was planning to give a speech going public with the US government's secret diplomatic dealings with the Greys. (Two great tastes that taste great together.)

The Federal Reserve theory was one of a number of proposed motives put forth by Jim Marrs in his Crossfire book (IIRC the Aliens one was another one). It's based on an incredibly poor reading of Executive Order 11110. Proponents of the Federal Reserve motive tends to ignore that JFK had actually increased the powers of the Federal Reserve before his death.

 

[HSienzant]

...Before Dallas there were at least three known similar assassination attempts on JFK. Tampa, Miami and Chicago. High office building, rifles, designated patsy very similar that of Oswald.

I would ask you for the specifics on these supposed incidents, but we both know you'll never be able to cite any evidence of any such attempts or even of any such plans. Just allegations of this and that; some hearsay; and suppositions.

They could also have had a plan B and C while still in Dallas.

That's just you assuming what you need to prove. You need to prove "they" even existed. Then you need to establish these supposed alternate plans. Speculating about what "they" could have done or might have done isn't very fruitful.

Maybe a road bomb. Maybe snipers at the Trade Mart. Maybe an ambush after the Trade Mart on the way back to Love Field.

Why not simply provide any direct evidence for the "They" in the above? Right now, we both agree that all the evidence points to Oswald. We just disagree on the reason.

Speculation. Better to focus on the cover up where The Evidence Is The Conspiracy.

You already have failed to address my rebuttal to the 12 points you first raised. What direct evidence of a conspiracy do you have?

Hank

 

[vtbub]

Hank,

Wasn't there a specific threat in Tampa that came to light when the Secret Service agents collaborated on a book a few years back? Or am I wrong?

(Not trying to give Manifesto a lifeline, but the trip to Tampa did cause great concern.)

 

[BStrong]

Hank,

Wasn't there a specific threat in Tampa that came to light when the Secret Service agents collaborated on a book a few years back? Or am I wrong?

(Not trying to give Manifesto a lifeline, but the trip to Tampa did cause great concern.)

In Legacy of Secrecy the assertion is that there (iirc) was a foiled assassination plot in Chicago involving an individual discovered on the parade route w/ a Garand and 1k rounds of ammunition...no arrest...and there was a similar plot in Fla., again no arrests (iirc) but the thing is that there are as a matter of course people who come up as a person of interest for the SS in just about any location any President appears.

 

[HSienzant]

Hank,

Wasn't there a specific threat in Tampa that came to light when the Secret Service agents collaborated on a book a few years back? Or am I wrong?

(Not trying to give Manifesto a lifeline, but the trip to Tampa did cause great concern.)

I am not aware of any evidence of such plot. I am aware of allegations of such a plot. Perhaps you or Manifesto can present said evidence.

Hank