JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

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Two questions before I continue, Hank.

1. Do you agree that the copy of the money order on record are not equipped with sufficient number of stamps showing that it has passed through the federal reserve banking system?

2. Are you saying that the copy of the money order is a photo copy from the Klein's original microfilm with no intermediary copying in between?
 
That's your conclusion; you can't present it as evidence to refute actual evidence.
It is a summary of where the evidence leads. At the moment I'm in the middle of an argument trying to show:

1. That the paper trial are fabricated.

2. That the fabricated paper trail doesn't prove Oswald bought and own the rifle even if it was to be genuine.

If someone tried to frame an innocent Oswald for the JFK assassination by trying to connect him to the alleged murder weapon through a fabricated paper trail there is all reason to suspect that the rifle also was planted on 6th floor.

Deduction.
 
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It is a summary of where the evidence leads. At the moment I'm in the middle of an argument trying to show:

1. That the paper trial are fabricated.

2. That the fabricated paper trail doesn't prove Oswald bought and own the rifle even if it was to be genuine.

If someone tried to frame an innocent Oswald for the JFK assassination by trying to connect him to the alleged murder weapon through a fabricated paper trail there is all reason to suspect that the rifle also was planted on 6th floor.

Deduction.


It's highly amusing when someone gets into the JFK-Woo and honestly believes that they're "onto something" and that it's somehow new.
It's as if they are blinkered to the past fifty years of the woo being disproved.
So funny.
 
It's highly amusing when someone gets into the JFK-Woo and honestly believes that they're "onto something" and that it's somehow new.
It's as if they are blinkered to the past fifty years of the woo being disproved.
So funny.
I'm not stating I am "on to something" new, no. It takes time to really go through the vast material and see for your self how bad it is.

With your own eyes.
 
I'm not stating I am "on to something" new, no. It takes time to really go through the vast material and see for your self how bad it is.



With your own eyes.


A good example of why it's so amusing.
There really isn't a vast amount of material to go through, unless you mean reading woo-sites and woo-books.
And you honestly believe that I and others here haven't "gone through" it all before? Or seen it with our own eyes?
People have been woo-ing about this for fifty years!
Lol. Get a proper hobby and don't waste your life on this Rubbish.
 
Two questions before I continue, Hank.

1. Do you agree that the copy of the money order on record are not equipped with sufficient number of stamps showing that it has passed through the federal reserve banking system?

Asked and answered. And you are changing the subject from YOUR POINT ONE to YOUR POINT FIVE:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11029667&postcount=503

5. The proposed money order are not stamped with the three obligatory bank stamps showing that it has went through the federal reserve banking system necessary for the purchase to go through.

Another claim without any documentation nor substantiation. Or as you put it in another post, "Since when is it mine or anyone else's homework trying to find sources to support your grandiose proclamations?"

In another post you said "Good. Explain the 12 points, one at the time."

Let's stick to POINT ONE, per your own suggestion. According to you, that was the MOST IMPORTANT point, anyway. Reminder: Here's your point one:

1. Most important. All the documents put forward by the FBI are copies of film of the originals, not the original documents. The originals are these days nowhere to be found.
Why are the normal Kleins business records - (which were stored on microfilm and the originals discarded in the normal course of business and which suffice for everyday disputes) - not sufficient for YOU?

Because they point to Oswald?

Do you still get your original checks returned to you by your bank? Or do you get copies, which are sufficient to establish what you wrote and who you wrote it to? If you go to your bank and argue you didn't write that check and they can't prove it because there's no original, do you think you'd get very far? But that's the silly argument you're advancing here. Only microfilm copies of the orders were retained by Kleins. Those microfilm copies were their business records. They are perfectly acceptable - unless the accused name is Oswald, for some reason.

You conceded that point, I thought. You then went on to argue the FBI only provided copies of the microfilm as photocopies (Xerox copies, to be precise), not the original microfilm. I showed that was wrong as well.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=11043675

Yes, the money order was routinely microfilmed and thereafter routinely destroyed by Klein's, no one is stating otherwise. However, the FBI showed only a xerox copy of a copy of the Klein's original microfilm to the WC. When trying to locate the original microfilm at the FBI it had disappeared leaving behind an empty box.
That is flatly untrue. You are obviously not reading the testimony, but getting your claims filtered through some conspiracy author who is lying to you. Why don't you cite the source of your claim, so we both know the source?

Meanwhile, here's mine:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/cadigan2.htm
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 773, and I ask you whether you have examined that item.
Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have.
Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, that consists of an application to purchase a rifle, addressed to Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you an item consisting of a roll of microfilm labeled D-77, and ask you whether you are familiar with that roll of microfilm?
Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I am.
Mr. EISENBERG That micro film will be marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 1.
(The article referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 1.)


Now, is it clear to you at this time that your claim above, about the original microfilm being missing, and never being shown to the Warren Commission, and only Xerox copies being used is FALSE?

At this point, where we are now, you want to talk about POINT FIVE INSTEAD. Why is that, Manifesto? That's a logical fallacy of a red herring (changing the subject). You thought your point one was the most important, you raised it. I answered it. Suddenly you want to talk about your point five instead.

Back to point one: Is Armstrong wrong? Is your claim wrong? Why do you post stuff you read on the internet as if it's true without trying to validate it?



2. Are you saying that the copy of the money order is a photo copy from the Klein's original microfilm with no intermediary copying in between?

Not at all. I am saying the original money order is the original money order and all is in order with that original. Here is an image of the original in color (the Warren Commission reproduced only black and white copies for their 26 volumes of evidence).

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22439&p=320867
(scroll down, it's the third image in the post).

You don't even understand the paper trail... the original money order wasn't discarded after being microfilmed as you originally claimed in your point one ("Yes, the money order was routinely microfilmed and thereafter routinely destroyed by Klein's, no one is stating otherwise.")

The microfilm wasn't 'lost' by the FBI as you originally claimed. The money order wasn't 'routinely destroyed' as you claimed.

The original money order was deposited to Kleins bank, the FIRST NATIONAL BANK OF CHICAGO (how else would they get paid?) It thereafter went to a Federal Reserve Bank and into storage. The original was located on 11/23/63. It is in the National Archives today. The microfilm was in the possession of the Warren Commission and was available for their inspection at that time. I even showed you an image of the microfilm roll in question from among their volumes of evidence (Cadigan Exhibit 1).

Your claims are totally wrong, and you think you're coming here to educate us about all the problems with the evidence, when you don't even understand the evidence, and are guilty of just repeating stuff you read on the internet by a conspiracy author whose main goal is selling his book and is telling you a bunch of falsehoods.

Hank
 
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A good example of why it's so amusing.
There really isn't a vast amount of material to go through, unless you mean reading woo-sites and woo-books.
And you honestly believe that I and others here haven't "gone through" it all before? Or seen it with our own eyes?
People have been woo-ing about this for fifty years!
Lol. Get a proper hobby and don't waste your life on this Rubbish.
Oh, I'm interested in much much more, do not worry.

- How about Patrice Lumumba and his assassination by the CIA, is this woo too?

- CIA's assassination attempts on Fidel Castro?

- CIA's assassination of Alleende? Woo?

- CIA's assassination attempt on Cho En Lai?

- CIA's overthrow of Mossadegh and creation of the SAWAK? Woo?

- CIA's proxy assassination of the Diem brothers? Woo too?

- CIA's overthrow of Arbenz and the instigation of the Guatemalan killing fields?

- CIA's propping up of military dictator Mobutu in the Congo, stealing billions of dollars from the Congolese people doing service to his western masters?

- CIA's assassination of Che Guevara? Woo?

- CIA's interventions in Indonesia leading to millions of murdered civilians in a decades long terror war.

- CIA's worldwide drug trade making billions of dollars paying for right wing mercenaries killing poor people demanding democracy and justice in South America and Africa.

- CIA's medical experiments on disenfranchised people in its own population?

- CIA infiltrating the US major media corrupting the fourth estate and denying the public its constitutional free flow of information? Woo?

- CIA teaching its South American military proxy dictators how to use torture and death squads in order to surpress legitimate demands for democracy and justice? Woo?

- CIA acting on its own policys with no regard for the President or congress? As a rule? Woo?

- CIA's terror campaign Operation Phoenix, killing and torturing hundreds of thousands vietnamese farmers, winning the hearts and minds in its war on communism? Woo?


Define "woo."
 
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Manifesto wanted to go slow and cover points in detail:
"It gets almost impossible to keep track of every nuance of every argument on every tangent of a specific issue."

Now he's just trying to throw as much stuff out as he can to derail the conversation from his own point one.

Hank
 
Manifesto wanted to go slow and cover points in detail:
"It gets almost impossible to keep track of every nuance of every argument on every tangent of a specific issue."

Now he's just trying to throw as much stuff out as he can to derail the conversation from his own point one.

Hank
No worries, Hank, I'm reading up on the CE-139 paper trail, finished soon. Be patient, or not.
 
It does.

However, he says he wants to do this a step at a time, we'll do it his way. I suspect he'll be all over the map shortly enough.

Hank
 
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No worries, Hank, I'm reading up on the CE-139 paper trail, finished soon. Be patient, or not.


Right now the question before us is even more basic.... did the FBI provide only photocopies of the microfilm to the Warren Commission, or did the Warren Commission have the original microfilm in their possession?

I think you can gracefully concede the point you tried to argue was wrong.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11045829#post11045829

And we can move on from there.

Here's some more testimony your conspiracy sources aren't telling you about:

Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you and your company do when you were contacted by the FBI?
Mr. WALDMAN. We met with the FBI in our offices.
Mr. BELIN. Was this on Friday evening, November 22?
Mr. WALDMAN. On Friday evening, November 22.
Mr. BELIN. Did the FBI indicate at what time, what period that they felt you might have received this rifle originally?
Mr. WALDMAN. We were able to determine from our purchase records the date in which the rifle had been received, and they also had a record of when it had been shipped, so we knew the approximate date of receipt by us, and from that we made---let's see, we examined our microfilm records which show orders from mail order customers and related papers, and from this determined to whom the gun had been shipped by us.
Mr. BELIN. Are these microfilm records part of your customary recording of transactions of your company?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; they are.
Mr. BELIN. I'm handing you what has been marked as an FBI Exhibit D-77 and ask you if you know what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. This is a microfilm record that---of mail order transactions for a given period of time. It was turned over by us to the FBI.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know when it was turned over to the FBI?
Mr. WALDMAN. It was turned over to them on November 23, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you are reading from the carton containing that microfilm. Do you know whose initials are on there?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the initials on here are mine and they were put on the date on which this was turned over to the FBI concerned with the investigation.
Mr. BELIN. You have on your premises a machine for looking at the microfilm prints?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And you can make copies of the microfilm prints?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. I wonder if we can adjourn the deposition upstairs to take a look at these records in the microfilm and get copies of the appropriate records that you found on the evening of November 22.
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the microfilm machine.)
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, you have just put the microfilm which we call D-77 into your viewer which is marked a Microfilm Reader-Printer, and you have identified this as No. 270502, according to your records. Is this just a record number of yours on this particular shipment?


Here's that testimony: http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/waldman.htm

Was your claim about the microfilm wrong, or was it wrong? Those are your choices.

Hank

PS: If you're reading up on the CE139 paper trail by reading conspiracy sites, you're going about it the wrong way. Read the testimony.
 
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Doesn't that thread also explain how manifesto's point 5 is wrong?
(Sorry for jumping ahead a bit)
Note to the reader of the thread. This is how they do it. Ganging up on their opponent, start talking of him/her in third person between them selves, creating the impression of an inferior needed to be corrected. Alone and in real life with a levelled playing field, they don't stand a chance. It's like stumble into an inbred hillbilly camp in the Appalachians trying to find somebody to play chess with.

Prepare yourselves for a strange encounter.
 
Note to the reader of the thread. This is how they do it. Ganging up on their opponent, start talking of him/her in third person between them selves, creating the impression of an inferior needed to be corrected. Alone and in real life with a levelled playing field, they don't stand a chance. It's like stumble into an inbred hillbilly camp in the Appalachians trying to find somebody to play chess with.

Prepare yourselves for a strange encounter.


We're used to conspiracy theorists coming here claiming to have the scoop. And to be exposed as wrong.

Speaking of "needed to be corrected", was your claim (that you sourced to Armstrong) about the microfilm wrong, Manifesto?

You wrote:

Yes, the money order was routinely microfilmed and thereafter routinely destroyed by Klein's, no one is stating otherwise. However, the FBI showed only a xerox copy of a copy of the Klein's original microfilm to the WC. When trying to locate the original microfilm at the FBI it had disappeared leaving behind an empty box.

Is that wrong?

Has that been demonstrated to be wrong by quoting the actual testimony before the Warren Commission from both Cadigan and Waldman, both of whom referenced viewing the actual microfilm, and by citing Cadigan Exhibit 1?

I'm unsure what further evidence you need on this point.

Remember what you said previously: "It takes time to really go through the vast material and see for your self how bad it is. With your own eyes."

Has at least one scale fallen from one eye?

If we can't get past this point with a concession from you, I'm unsure why you would think I will bother with rebutting every change of subject you introduce.

Hank
 
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1. That the paper trial are fabricated.

It isn't. He had to sign for it when he picked it up, face+name-signature = eye witness. The Carcano is also the kind of rifle Oswald would have bought due it it being Italian and playing into his fantasies of being a revolutionary. That same add for the Carcano featured M-1 Garands for only a few bucks more, and this was a rifle he'd qualified on in the USMC. He didn't buy one because the M-1 was boring.

2. That the fabricated paper trail doesn't prove Oswald bought and own the rifle even if it was to be genuine.

See, now you're trying to play both sides.

There are as many as 20 people who saw Oswald with the rifle starting with his wife who photographed him - twice - with it and the hand gun he used to kill Tippet. His Neighbors in New Orleans, and the men at the firing range are also witnesses to the rifle being in his possession.

Then there's Buell Frazier, his neighbor, co-worker at the TSD, and the man who drove him to and from the firing range.

It was his rifle.

If someone tried to frame an innocent Oswald for the JFK assassination by trying to connect him to the alleged murder weapon through a fabricated paper trail there is all reason to suspect that the rifle also was planted on 6th floor.

First off, if they wanted to frame Oswald then planting a rifle he owned at the crime scene makes better sense than planting a random rifle with a fake paper trail. As I've already pointed out, Oswald qualified with the M-1, so why not link him to a weapon he was trained to use without a scope? Why an oddball choice like the Carcano?

Your theory falls apart when the details don't add up.

The next problem assumes that "They" knew JFK was going to be in Dallas at the same time as Oswald, and that "They" knew it wasn't going to rain during the motorcade (it had been raining in Dallas and there was a good chance the roof would have had to be installed on the President's limo, and that wasn't decided until JFK arrived at Love Field).

Too many variables to plan this shooting the way it was executed. Especially when in a month JFK would be at the family home in Hyannis for the holidays, where a competent shooter would have plenty of time and opportunity to shoot a less mobile target.
 
It isn't. He had to sign for it when he picked it up, face+name-signature
Did he? Where is this signed receipt?


= eye witness.
No one at the post office remember Oswald collecting a big heavy package, let alone a rifle that day ... or another day.


The Carcano is also the kind of rifle Oswald would have bought due it it being Italian and playing into his fantasies of being a revolutionary.
It was a fascist weapon, yes. Oswald was supposed to be a marxist?


That same add for the Carcano featured M-1 Garands for only a few bucks more, and this was a rifle he'd qualified on in the USMC. He didn't buy one because the M-1 was boring.
Well, if he was a kook, any less obvious explanation would do. How convenient.


See, now you're trying to play both sides.
No, I'm trying to show that the paper trial was a fabrication, but a sloppy one.


There are as many as 20 people who saw Oswald with the rifle starting with his wife who photographed him - twice - with it and the hand gun he used to kill Tippet.
Marina was and is not a trustworthy witness.


His Neighbors in New Orleans,
What neighbours? Name one.


and the men at the firing range are also witnesses to the rifle being in his possession.
The W-commission came to the conclusion that he couldn't have been on that firing range, and that the witnesses had to be mistaken.


Then there's Buell Frazier, his neighbor, co-worker at the TSD, and the man who drove him to and from the firing range.
When did Frazier see the rifle?


It was his rifle.
Not according to the fabricated paper trail, no. The only witness is Marina and she is not trustworthy.


First off, if they wanted to frame Oswald then planting a rifle he owned at the crime scene makes better sense than planting a random rifle with a fake paper trail.
And if he owned NO rifle?


As I've already pointed out, Oswald qualified with the M-1, so why not link him to a weapon he was trained to use without a scope? Why an oddball choice like the Carcano?
Don't know, but a qualified guess would be that it was cheap, foreign and sold only through post order, making it ideal for creating a false paper trail connecting Oswald with the murder weapon.


Your theory falls apart when the details don't add up.
So far so good?


The next problem assumes that "They" knew JFK was going to be in Dallas at the same time as Oswald,
Yes, Oswald was sent from Fort Worth to Dallas to New Orleans, and back to Dallas to a workplace perfectly located on the presidential route.


and that "They" knew it wasn't going to rain during the motorcade (it had been raining in Dallas and there was a good chance the roof would have had to be installed on the President's limo, and that wasn't decided until JFK arrived at Love Field).
It had been a bit more difficult with plastic transparent bubble yes, but still no critical obstacle, no. And, they could have had back up plans with different people, different city and ways to do it.

Three almost identical scenarios was aborted in the last hour in Tampa, Miami and Chicago the weeks before Dallas. Who knows how many alternatives they had in store should Dallas go wrong.


Too many variables to plan this shooting the way it was executed. Especially when in a month JFK would be at the family home in Hyannis for the holidays, where a competent shooter would have plenty of time and opportunity to shoot a less mobile target.
You do not know enough to speculate "easier ways" or more "rational ways". The conspiracy could be operating on different possible scenarios and on different levels of the organisation.

The shooters and people on the ground maybe thought it was part of a false flag operation against Cuba, making possible a full scale american invasion of the island. The people higher up maybe went for a less risky solution, going for the Lone Nut scenario.

Remember, if you are in control of the media and the investigation it doesn't matter how sloppy the cover up is.
 
Why would it matter if a witness is reliable or not when we have physical evidence for their story?
You don't have to believe her story... She has photos.
 
As expected, Manifesto, after reading up on the paper trail of the rifle, apparently decided not to address my points at all, but argue some other ones. He thereby avoids admitting he was ever wrong on any of his claims.

Did he? Where is this signed receipt?


No one at the post office remember Oswald collecting a big heavy package, let alone a rifle that day ... or another day.


It was a fascist weapon, yes. Oswald was supposed to be a marxist?


Well, if he was a kook, any less obvious explanation would do. How convenient.


No, I'm trying to show that the paper trial was a fabrication, but a sloppy one.


Marina was and is not a trustworthy witness.


What neighbours? Name one.


The W-commission came to the conclusion that he couldn't have been on that firing range, and that the witnesses had to be mistaken.


When did Frazier see the rifle?


Not according to the fabricated paper trail, no. The only witness is Marina and she is not trustworthy.


And if he owned NO rifle?


Don't know, but a qualified guess would be that it was cheap, foreign and sold only through post order, making it ideal for creating a false paper trail connecting Oswald with the murder weapon.


So far so good?


Yes, Oswald was sent from Fort Worth to Dallas to New Orleans, and back to Dallas to a workplace perfectly located on the presidential route.


It had been a bit more difficult with plastic transparent bubble yes, but still no critical obstacle, no. And, they could have had back up plans with different people, different city and ways to do it.

Three almost identical scenarios was aborted in the last hour in Tampa, Miami and Chicago the weeks before Dallas. Who knows how many alternatives they had in store should Dallas go wrong.



You do not know enough to speculate "easier ways" or more "rational ways". The conspiracy could be operating on different possible scenarios and on different levels of the organisation.

The shooters and people on the ground maybe thought it was part of a false flag operation against Cuba, making possible a full scale american invasion of the island. The people higher up maybe went for a less risky solution, going for the Lone Nut scenario.

Remember, if you are in control of the media and the investigation it doesn't matter how sloppy the cover up is.
 
And this is why we can't have nice things. Sadly the thread has had to be switched back to moderated.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
 
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