JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

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No, Stephan Barber's discovery is only one of the proofs that the Dictabelt recording is irrelevant.
I thought we went over that!

It has been shown. But we seem to be falling into the usual CT double standard where any evidence that suggests a possibility of conspiracy must become absolute proof, and be beyond question. Where as other evidence can be dismissed as iffy with no more than an innuendo of conspiracy.

So: The dictabelt is treated as flawless, and it's failings and limitations ignored, where as photographs, fingerprints, palmprints, and the like, are dismissed out of hand.

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how a latent print, lifted in a powder medium from the rifle, can be faked. It is not enough to suggest it was conjured in a break to the chain of custody. The issue is how it could be faked.
 
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I think the unstated caveat on that was "that could have been done in the 1960s".
Not too many digital processing programmes, digital cameras, or even (despite having been invented in 1946) too many microwave ovens. Plus, they would have had to have Oswald's palm-prints some time beforehand, in order for any of this to have been possible.
 
This thread is once again becoming a prime example of why CTs fail to convince sceptics.
Are you a real sceptic?


Humans are not perfect. They make mistakes. But the CT always sees the sinister instead of inept, and sees good evidence as being too good.
And you are making things up as you go.


We have good evidence of LHO using false ID. So of course it was faked.
No, we have evidence of Oswald using the name, "A. Hidell/Alek Hidell" on a phony member chart of a phony chapter of the FPFC, on a post-box application in New Orleans, and, according to Army Intelligence, as an alias.

Beyond that we have three wallets found by the police after the murders of JFK and DPD J.D. Tippit. One found on the Tippit murder scene containing a false ID with the Name Alek Hidell and Oswalds picture. After that the DPD found a second wallet, this time in Oswalds pocket driving him to DPD HQ after arresting him at Texas Theater, also containing a false ID with the name, "Alek Hidell" and Oswalds picture and a proper ID with Oswalds picture and real name under it. After that they found a wallet in Marinas care at the Paines residence containing some 170 dollars but no ID at all.

Why all this wallets and ID's strewn around on critical junctures in Oswalds alleged whereabouts? And, which one is the real one?


If you can't explain the latent print lifted from the rifle,
It was an OLD print, easy to fake as I explained above.


or the shell casings,
1. Lets say that the shell casings belonged to the alleged murder weapon (CE-139), what difference does it make when there is no evidence of Oswald buying, owning, keeping, transport, or using it on the day of the murder?

2. There is no chain of custody on record for the three casings, and when asked to photograph and point out engraved initials from among others, DPD's Lt. Carl Day, NARA couldn't find any.


jump on a minor issues instead.
It is problems with e v e r y s i n g l e i s s u e in this case. Everywhere you look.


Read too much into people looking down a barrel (or not),
This is a trivial matter? To see if the weapon suspected to have been used in the murder of the nations president, has been fired recently?

Define trivial.


or marks on the shell casings.
What?


It doesn't matter if the are other methodologies, or if other evidence was collected, look for innuendos of conspiracy that mean nothing.
This is not innuendo, it is the core physical evidence used to posthumously convict Oswald of the murder of JFK, and incidentally letting the real killers of the hook, still at large.


Apparently we should be suspicious of the autopsy photos because they don't match what some people think the doctors described,
You are severely misrepresenting the evidentiary record. The autopsy photos do not match any of the reports from the medical witnesses from three hospitals that day. Parkland-, Methodist- (Harper fragment) and Bethesda Naval Hospital. That includes the three pathologists who performed the autopsy.

A big gaping wound at the back/posterior/occipital/occipital-parietal of JFK's head. There is NO sign of this in any of the existing autopsy photos or x-ray photos.


Adding to this, there is convincing technical evidence presented by David Mantik which is now corroborated by another medical doctor, Michael Chesser. Both of them have independently performed measurements with densitometer on the x-rays at NARA and come to the same conclusion: http://assassinationofjfk.net/a-review-of-the-jfk-cranial-x-rays-and-photographs/

- There is evidence of a right frontal entry wound.

- The white patch is artificial, most likely added to obscure temporal/occipital skull defect +/- fragments.

- The 6.5 bright object is artificial, most likely added to implicate the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle.

- The "burn marks" do not appear consistent with burn marks. The proposed purpose is to obscure fragments or entry/exit wound in the right temporal vs occipital region.

- These images are not that difficult to interpret, unless the reviewer is blind to the possibility of tampering. There are thousands of individuals qualified to review them.

- The viewing of these images has been severely limited. I believe that viewing by a wider audience will reveal more of the truth that has been hidden for decades.


More proved tampering, shown by David Mantik and the "bright object". A peer reviewed article in KEI Journals (free download): http://www.journals.ke-i.org/index.php/mra/article/view/177/78
THE JOHN F. KENNEDY AUTOPSY X-RAYS: THE SAGA OF THE LARGEST “METALLIC FRAGMENT”



or remembered years later?
Always go by the earliest testimony. Important rule of thumb.


No. We should be Suspicious of the photos if there is any evidence they were faked.
No. We should weigh the probabilities for each contradicting evidence being false or true. The art of tampering with photos is as old and trivial as the art of photography itself. In this case it's silly to deny the high probability of tampering. 100% proof? Of course not, but enough to demand that representatives of the public get access and settle the matter once and for all.

Exhumation, if necessary. Put him to rest.


As there is none, no artefact or feature to suggest fakery, then surely it is the photographs that prove what the doctors saw. The photos don't change over time, and are objective.
See above.


And guess what? If the wound was visible by standing at the head of the gurney, while JFK lay on his back, unmoved, it is because the wounds match the photographs. As it doesn't matter where you stand, unless you can see through the gurney, you weren't going to see the back of his head.
No, the wound was clearly visible when standing at the head of the gurney. From the sides, from the head and even from above. Read the testimonies.


There we have it rear portion, right of the head, reaching the occipital bone behind the ear. Just as the doctors described at the tine, as the autopsy described, and the photos show. Not as the CT needs to believe.
No you are tweaking the semantics. Read the testimonies.


That is the thing. You can complain Maria
Mari[n]a.


is not a reliable witness. But that does not change the photographs she took.
Self perpetuating logic. Closed loop.


Or the documents that support the purchase of the rifle.
No they do not. See above.


It is because human beings are not always reliable that we use other forms of evidence.
Yes we do know that. And?


We can not assume witnesses are perfect when they support a ct.
We do not operate in that silly manner, no.


You could have a thousand people seeing a rifle on the grassy knoll, smelling smoke, or hearing the shot. Unless you can provide evidence to support the claims, it is worthless. And unfortunately the dictabelt is flawed evidence. There was no bike to record the shot.
Arguments by solemn proclamations. Church of the Lone Assassin.
 
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This is a trivial matter? To see if the weapon suspected to have been used in the murder of the nations president, has been fired recently?

Define trivial.

Trivial. Of no major consequence. Were it the ONLY way to see if a rifle had been fired, and if there were many rifles to choose from, it might have mattered. It may have impacted the weight of evidence.

Alas, there was already ample evidence the rifle had been used to attack the president.
 
You are severely misrepresenting the evidentiary record.
No. I am portraying it accurately. I am just not agreeing with your CT logic.

The autopsy photos do not match any of the reports from the medical witnesses from three hospitals that day.
Actually, they do. They show a wound at the rear of the right side of the head. Visible without lifting JFK from the gurney. As an added bonus, they also match filmed footage of the murder.


Parkland-, Methodist- (Harper fragment) and Bethesda Naval Hospital. That includes the three pathologists who performed the autopsy.

Yes. All those match the photos. And the documentary evidence.

A big gaping wound at the back/posterior/occipital/occipital-parietal of JFK's head.
You do realise where occipital bone extends to?
Hint: It is stretches around to the sides.

There is NO sign of this in any of the existing autopsy photos or x-ray photos.

There is. There is a wound at the rear right hand side, reaching up to the top of the head.

You are repeating the same old misunderstanding that has been dealt with already in three parts of this thread.

And just for the kicker: This sort of misunderstanding, or semantic quibbling is why pathologists take photographs.

But hey. If you want to explain why a mass of ejecta is missing from the Z film, show how the photographs, xrays, etc, were faked, feel free...
 
An old print lifted with location markings for the rifle? And your evidence is....?
Oswald was finger printed SEVEN times while alive in custody after the arrest. But, this was still not enough. Civilian service men went to the morgue and did additional finger printing after he was executed by Jack Ruby. Bring the barrel and press it against his palm. Or, tape the barrel and then an Oswald palm print on something else with the same tape.

I'm sure there were more ways to do it since it was routine in the US/Texas justice system anno 1963 when incriminating innocent people for crimes not committed.

Finger prints was and still are not very reliable as evidence. It's easy to make a misstake and later research has shown a worrisome lack of objective standards. Same with hand writing. Same with nitrate testing. Same with witness testimony.

Caution. Weigh the evidence. Weigh probabilities.


Edit: Thank you, Smartcookie.

 
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Oswald was finger printed SEVEN times while alive in custody after the arrest. But, this was still not enough.
And? They wanted be sure they had good comparrison prints.


Civilian service men went to the morgue and did additional finger printing after he was executed by Jack Ruby.
Both ink and inkless pads were used. This was most likely to obtain a palm print. (Don't get excited... Ink and inkless prints are comparrison prints).

Bring the barrel and press it against his palm.
And you will not get a latent print. He stopped prespiring before he reached a funeral home. And by that point the elasticity of his skin would have changed.

Or, tape the barrel and then an Oswald palm print on something else with the same tape.
Which would not only superimpose the locational marks ineffectively, but would also pick up locational marks from what ever the "something else" was.

As these are not present...

I'm sure there were more ways to do it since it was routine in the US/Texas justice system anno 1963 when incriminating innocent people for crimes not committed.
Not unless they had easy access to a microwave, or modern digital equipment. And even then, there would, as with photographs, be signs of the meddling. Which there are not.

Finger prints was and still are not very reliable as evidence. It's easy to make a misstake and later research has shown a worrisome lack of objective standards.

These are with the INTERPRETATION of fingerprints.

Same with hand writing. Same with nitrate testing. Same with witness testimony.

Ah, so you retract your earlier statement telling me I could not discuss the weaknesses with witness testimony, and I had to consider each witness seperately?

I await an apology.


Edit: Thank you, Smartcookie.
Indeed. Thankyou for pointing this out. These are great articles.
Unfortunately, they would leave traces, and were not viable in 1963.

Not unless the shooter on the Grassy Knoll hopped down in search for a Tikka To Ride...
 
I think the unstated caveat on that was "that could have been done in the 1960s".
Not too many digital processing programmes, digital cameras, or even (despite having been invented in 1946) too many microwave ovens. Plus, they would have had to have Oswald's palm-prints some time beforehand, in order for any of this to have been possible.

The microwave oven was invented in 1946, and the first commercial available one was marketed and sold under the "Tappen" brand in 1955. In any case, instead of "hand putty", fine potting clay could be used and hardened in an ordinary oven.

LHO was in the US Marines from 1956 to 1959. I don't know about the US Marines, but I was definitely printed when I joined our military.

Even if not, LHO was court martialled (twice) so his prints would have been taken then.

Also, LHO was arrested in New Orleans on August 9, 1963 for disturbing the peace and he would definitely have been printed then.

To be clear, I do not believe in any of the JFK conspiracy theories that advocate involvement of anyone other than LHO "before the fact" (read my signature), but I am open to the idea that there may have been a conspiracy "after the fact" to cover up certain aspects of the case, probably to hide incompetence by one or more people at the time of the assassination or afterwards.

Do I believe that faking fingerprints was possible in 1963? Yes, I do

Do I believe that LHO's fingerprints were faked? No, I do not!

When we argue against CT nut-bars, we must do so using facts and truth and not resort to hand-waving away evidence or allegations, otherwise we are no better than them.
 
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Unfortunately I m not trying to handwave. The same points were made by Robert Prey, and as with allegations of faking photos, or editing the z film, there are no traces of the manipulation that can be pointed to.

Asking how it could be done, even assuming the right equipment was common at the time, is to then point the CTer towards trying to show that was the case, with evidence of fakery.

After all, I think Manifesto is wrong, but because he is ill informed. I know JFK assassination books, even by the authors I like, take the fakery of certain evidence as a given, and treat it like fact. There is every chance Manifesto read up on the subject, and never found a single book that did not already conclude the autopsy records, fingerprints, etc, were fake. Just as you could read a number of books and never have it questioned if Ruby was a mob fixer.

Getting somebody to see that the CT's own description of the wound is a viable match to the autopsy photo,by showing them where the description covers, is another example. Read many books and it is treated as if it can only mean the back of the head was blasted away.
 
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I wonder if or when this tiresome phenomena of CTists thinking they are bringing something new to the table will ever end.
Over fifty years of the same tired old nonsense.
/yawn
 
Occipital bone (note side elevation): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occipital_bone
Parietal Bone (note side elevation): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parietal_bone

Somebody remind me what was wrong with the autopsy photos again?
Those seem to be exactly where the autopsy photos, and the Z film show the wound.
Occipital/parietal have to include occipital but in the autopsy photos of the back of the head, the occipital bone is intact. In fact, the whole of the back of the head is intact.

Same goes for the x-ray-photos.

It doesn't matter how creatively you are trying to tweak the semantics, disgraced McAdams style, you end up with a contradictory evidentiary record all the same.

To put it mildly.
 
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I wonder if or when this tiresome phenomena of CTists thinking they are bringing something new to the table will ever end.
Over fifty years of the same tired old nonsense.
/yawn
This is how we chip in and show our faith and moral support.

Church of the Lone Assassin
 
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