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Continuation Part 19: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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The fact the PGP have to rely so heavily on character assassination is indication of a weak case and a lack of evidence. Even if the anti semitic remark was true, how is that relevant to the case? Meredith was not Jewish which meant that anti semitism could not have been a motive for Amanda to kill Meredith. If the case against Amanda and Raffaele was so strong, why do PGP have to rely on irrelevant things to argue their case?

No, it is the PIP who have personalised it and tried to turn the defendants into celebrities.

How is the anti-semitic remark relevant? In looking at character and what motivates a person, it is a mistake to assume you know what they meant or were thinking, based on one's own view and reactions to the world. This is why police and prosecution are trained to give testimony as straightforwardly and objectively as possible, and avoiding attributing motive, intention or emotion to the person spoken of.

This is because it is for the judge to do the inferring, when he or she comes to assessing the verdict after hearing all of the evidence in front of him or her.

How can we infer whether antisemitism is a motive for murder? We can objectively note that alleged perp was heard to say (objectively) "My people killed your people".

Together with other salient objectively observed actions and statements, a judge is able to make an inference.

Amanda did make the aforementioned comment. However, this "Matthew" chap did not bring this testimony to court, so we can disregard it as hearsay by journalist Charles Mudede, who reported it.

I am not sure Amanda's My Space page was part of the background evidence or not, but she did, indeed, write a caption under a controversial photograph of herself, which could be simply irony in bad taste, "the Nazi within".

She did describe her boss Patrick to police as, "the African ragazza" and accuse him of rape and murder.

So why wouldn't the judge infer Amanda was not a very nice person? It is relevant in deciding whether it is likely the person in front of them was the perp, together with a thousand and one other factors.

Mez, being of Anglo-Indian descent, could have been seen by a racist as someone worthy of degrading teatment, so I wouldn't say it is irrelevant to note Amanda's comments about being a Nazi.
 
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For what it's worth, I've been reading predictions like this since 2011. So far nothing has happened, save for the predictable predatory prosecutions Mingini and the PLE bunch have brought.

Get back to us when there's a reputable news article from Italy which sustains your prediction. So far it has been about Sollecito after innocence with a new book, the censure of Mignini by his peers, and how the Stasi case is a return to the judicial roulette wheel, so quickly after Marasca/Bruno applied logic and common sense at the ISC level.

In the case of Stasi, in which the appellant relied heavily on the Knox-Sollecito case law, as set as precedent by Marasca, we see a good illustration of how a bad verdict - Marasca-Bruno - is demonstrated to be bad. Illogical, unworkable, confusing and undermining.
 
....... add to this:

When it is pointed out that the Italian press has been virtually unanimous in supporting the March 2015 acquittals - virtually unanimous that the Sept 2015 motivations report speaks of a flawed investigation and almost a decade of judicial folly....

That when a piece comes out about the Stasi conviction, saying that unlike the sound decision from Marasca/Bruno the Stasi coury has gone back to the judicial roulette wheel....

The small English language guilt-group says, "well, that's just their opinion." Absent is **any** contrary opinion in Italy.

Why is that? Italians themselves seem more interested in shining a spotlight on Mignini's peer censure, than the English-guilters still trying to divert onto Knox.


They are simply reporting the latest news.
 
Well, one thing is for sure. You have a need to reinvent what Marasca/Bruno did. They "regrettably (had) to drop the charge"!? LOL!

None of this is even worth reposting relevant sections of Marasca/Bruno. Alas.

Tell you what - I've asked this before, but you simply cannot do this so it is worth the asking one more time......

Point to **one** Italian language source which even remotely sustains what you're reinventing above.

The Bruno Marasca report itself, and you can find a draft version here: http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/2015-Marasca-Bruno-Motivation-Report-PRE-FINAL.pdf

For those who have no desire to plough through pages of dense narrative, here's an excerpt here:

We refer to the multiple elements, linked to the overall reconstruction of events, which rule out that Guede could have acted alone. Firstly, testifying in this direction are the two main wounds (actually three) observed on the victim’s neck, on each side, with a diversified path and features, attributable most likely (even if the data is contested by the defense) to two different cutting weapons. And also, the lack of signs of resistance by the young woman, since no traces of the assailant were found under her nails, and there is no evidence elsewhere [aliunde] of any desperate attempt to oppose the aggressor; the bruises on her upper limbs and those on mandibular area and lips (likely the result of forcible hand action of constraint meant to keep the victim’s mouth shut) found during the cadaver examination, and above all, the appalling modalities of the murder, which were not adequately pointed out in the appealed ruling. And in fact, the same ruling (p. 323 and 325) reports of abundant blood spatters found on the right door of the wardrobe located inside Kercher’s room, about 50 cm above the floor. Such occurrence, given the location and direction of the drops, could probably lead to the conclusion that the young woman had her throat literally “slashed” likely as she was kneeling, while her head was being forcibly held [hold] tilted towards the floor, at a close distance from the wardrobe, when she was hit by multiple stab wounds at her neck, one of which – the one inflicted on the left side of her neck – caused her death, due to asphyxia following [to] the massive bleeding, which also filled the breathing ways preventing breathing activity, a situation aggravated by the rupture of the hyoid bone – this also linkable to the blade action – with consequent dyspnoea” (p. 48). Such a mechanical action is hardly attributable to the conduct of one person alone, (Para 4,3,1)

--

9.4.1 Given this, we now note, with respect to Amanda Knox, that her presence inside the house, the location of the murder, is a proven fact in the trial, in accord with her own admissions, also contained in the memoriale with her signature, in the part where she tells that, as she was in the kitchen, while the young English woman had retired inside the room of same Ms. Kercher together with another person for a sexual intercourse, she heard a harrowing scream from her friend, so piercing and unbearable that she let herself down squatting on the floor, covering her ears tight with her hands in order not to hear more of it. About this, the judgment of reliability expressed by the lower [a quo] judge [Nencini, ed.] with reference to this part of the suspect’s narrative, [and] about the plausible implication from the fact herself was the first person mentioning for the first time [46] a possible sexual motive for the murder, at the time when the detectives still did not have the results from the cadaver examination, nor the autopsy report, nor the witnesses’ information, which was collected only subsequently, about the victim’s terrible scream and about the time when it was heard (witnesses Nara Capezzali, Antonella Monacchia and others), is certainly to be subscribed to. We make reference in particular to those declarations that the current appellant [Knox] produced on 11. 6. 2007 (p.96) inside the State Police headquarters. On the other hand, in the slanderous declarations against Lumumba, which earned her a conviction, the status of which is now protected as final judgement [giudicato], [they] had themselves exactly that premise in the narrative, that is: the presence of the young American woman inside the house in via della Pergola, a circumstance which nobody at that time – except obviously the other people present inside the house – could have known (quote p. 96).
According to the slanderous statements of Ms. Knox, she had returned home in the company of Lumumba, who she had met by chance in Piazza Grimana, and when Ms. Kercher arrived in the house, Knox’s companion directed sexual attentions toward the young English woman, then he went together with her in her room, from which the harrowing scream came. So, it was Lumumba who killed Meredith and she could affirm this since she was on the scene of crime herself, albeit in another room.

Another element against her is the mixed DNA traces, her and the victim’s one, in the “small bathroom”, an eloquent proof that anyway she had come into contact with the blood of the latter, which she tried to wash away from herself (it was, it seems, diluted blood, while the biological traces belonging to her would be the consequence of epithelial rubbing). The fact is very suspicious, but it’s not decisive, besides the known considerations about the sure nature and attribution of the traces in question.
Nonetheless, even if we deem the attribution certain, the trial element would not be unequivocal, since it may show also a posthumous touching of that blood, during the probable attempt of removing the most visible traces of what had happened, maybe to help cover up for someone or to steer away suspicion from herself, but not contributing to full certainty about her direct involvement in the murderous action. Any further and more pertaining interpretation in fact would be anyway resisted by the circumstance – this is decisive indeed – that no trace linkable to her was found on the scene of crime or on the victim’s body, so it follows – if we concede everything – that her contact with the victim’s blood happened in a subsequent moment and in another room of the house.

Another element against her is certainly constituted by the false accusations [calunnia] against Mr. Lumumba, afore-mentioned above. It is not understandable, in fact, what reason could have driven the young woman to produce such serious accusations. The theory that she did so in order to escape psychological pressure from detectives seems extremely fragile, given that the woman [47] could not fail to realize that such accusations directed against her boss would turn out to be false very soon, given that, as she knew very well, Mr. Lumumba had no relationship with Ms. Kercher nor with the Via della Pergola house.

Furthermore, the ability to present an ironclad alibi would have allowed Lumumba to obtain release and subsequently the dropping of charges. However, the said calunnia is another circumstantial element against the current appellant, insofar as it can be considered a strategy in order to cover up for Mr. Guede, whom she had an interest to protect because of fear of retaliatory accusations against her. This is confirmed by the fact that Mr. Lumumba, like Mr. Guede, is a man of colour, hence the indication of the first one would be safe in the event that the latter could have been seen by someone while entering or exiting the apartment.


And moreover, the staging of a theft in Romanelli’s room, which she is accused of, is also a relevant point within an incriminating picture, considering the elements of strong suspicion (location of glass shards – apparently resulting from the breaking of a glass window pane caused by the throwing of a rock from the outside – on top of, but also under clothes and furniture), a staging, which can be linked to someone who – as an author of the murder and a flatmate [titolare] with a formal [“qualified”] connection to the dwelling – had an interest to steer suspicion away from himself/herself, while a third murderer in contrast would be motivated by a very different urge after the killing, that is to leave the apartment as quickly as possible. But also this element is substantially ambiguous, especially if we consider the fact that when the postal police arrived – they arrived in Via della Pergola for another reason: to search for Ms. Romanelli, the owner of the telephone SIM card found inside one of the phones retrieved in via Sperandio – the current appellants themselves, Sollecito specifically, were the ones who pointed out the anomalous situation to the officers, as nothing appeared to be stolen from Ms. Romanelli’s room.

Elements of strong suspicion are also in the inconsistencies and lies which the suspect woman committed over the statements she released on various occasions, especially in the places where her narrative was contradicted by the telephone records showing different incoming SMS messages;


9. An umpteenth element of suspicion is the basic failure of the alibi linked to other, claimed human interactions in the computer of his belongings, albeit if we can’t talk about false alibi, since it’s more appropriate to speak about unsuccessful alibi. Finally, no certainty could be reached [was acquired] about the attribution to Mr. Sollecito of the footprints found in the via della Pergola house, about which the technical reports carried out have not gone beyond a judgement of “probable identity”, and not of certainty (p. 260/1). 9.4.2 (RS)
 
Your spoiler section follows this:

9.1 The intrinsically contradictory ensemble of the body of evidence, whose
objective uncertainty is already emphasised by the previously highlighted wavering
progress of the proceedings, does not therefore allow [us] to be satisfied to the
standard of [beyond a] reasonable doubt, whose establishment is an achievement of
legal culture that must, always and in any case, be upheld since it is the expression
of fundamental constitutional values, centered around the key role of the human
being in the judicial system, whose protection in the context of a trial is also
exercised by the principle of presumption of innocence until the definitive decision
[verdict], as per Article 27, section 2 of the Constitution.
9.2 The aspects of the objectively contradictory nature [of evidence] can be, as
shown below, illustrated for each defendant, in a synoptic presentation of the
elements favourable to the hypothesis of guilt and of the elements against it, as
they are shown, of course, by the text of the challenged ruling and of the previous ones.

So how do you assess this introduction to your favorite sections? It seems clear they are saying here's what the two sides contended. Then they look at some of the PG contentions and say even if true it isn't enough to prove guilt.

So for example they say that even if one accepts that Amanda was there when Meredith was killed it doesn't prove she was part of the murder. While I agree this is strange, it is what they say and most likely because of the byzantine nature of the Italian system's requirements of judicial truths.

ETA -Can you tell us what this means they are shown, of course, by the text of the challenged ruling and of the previous
ones.
 
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If Amanda was not guilty (de facto) the crime would not have taken place.

Well obviously Amanda is guilty of plotting to kill her roommate for no reason with a boy she met 5 days prior and a burglar she recruited after meeting once in an intricate plan involving careful staging and reconstructing a manga ritual all done by three conspirators who had never been in the same room before and couldn't speak a mutually intelligible language, and then got the mafia to influence the Supreme Court of Cassation when things went south. That goes without saying!

But do you know what the word hypothetical means? In a hypothetical universe where Meredith is killed by say, a random burglar, but the police make a series of incorrect assumptions that they self reinforce and end up arresting say, an innocent bar owner and two student accomplices, after legally questionable interrogations, how might the case have played out?

It seems plausible that with careers and reputation on the line, especially for the prosecutor who was already facing criminal charges for previous infractions, there would have been tremendous pressure to rectify their wrongful arrests and salvage their case. If, once the actual killer was caught, they could construct a case with him as merely the accomplice to the their initial suspects, they would be highly motivated to do so. I can imagine this could have lead to a suspect centric approach where you end up with deficient evidence propped up by innuendo and twisted forensics that might ultimately result in acquittals due to "glaring errors" "investigative amnesia" and "culpable omissions" on the part of the investigators.

Obviously we don't live in the universe where this happened :rolleyes:
 
The Bruno Marasca report itself, and you can find a draft version here: http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/2015-Marasca-Bruno-Motivation-Report-PRE-FINAL.pdf

For those who have no desire to plough through pages of dense narrative, here's an excerpt here:

We refer to the multiple elements, linked to the overall reconstruction of events, which rule out that Guede could have acted alone. Firstly, testifying in this direction are the two main wounds (actually three) observed on the victim’s neck, on each side, with a diversified path and features, attributable most likely (even if the data is contested by the defense) to two different cutting weapons. And also, the lack of signs of resistance by the young woman, since no traces of the assailant were found under her nails, and there is no evidence elsewhere [aliunde] of any desperate attempt to oppose the aggressor; the bruises on her upper limbs and those on mandibular area and lips (likely the result of forcible hand action of constraint meant to keep the victim’s mouth shut) found during the cadaver examination, and above all, the appalling modalities of the murder, which were not adequately pointed out in the appealed ruling. And in fact, the same ruling (p. 323 and 325) reports of abundant blood spatters found on the right door of the wardrobe located inside Kercher’s room, about 50 cm above the floor. Such occurrence, given the location and direction of the drops, could probably lead to the conclusion that the young woman had her throat literally “slashed” likely as she was kneeling, while her head was being forcibly held [hold] tilted towards the floor, at a close distance from the wardrobe, when she was hit by multiple stab wounds at her neck, one of which – the one inflicted on the left side of her neck – caused her death, due to asphyxia following [to] the massive bleeding, which also filled the breathing ways preventing breathing activity, a situation aggravated by the rupture of the hyoid bone – this also linkable to the blade action – with consequent dyspnoea” (p. 48). Such a mechanical action is hardly attributable to the conduct of one person alone, (Para 4,3,1)

--

9.4.1 Given this, we now note, with respect to Amanda Knox, that her presence inside the house, the location of the murder, is a proven fact in the trial, in accord with her own admissions, also contained in the memoriale with her signature, in the part where she tells that, as she was in the kitchen, while the young English woman had retired inside the room of same Ms. Kercher together with another person for a sexual intercourse, she heard a harrowing scream from her friend, so piercing and unbearable that she let herself down squatting on the floor, covering her ears tight with her hands in order not to hear more of it. About this, the judgment of reliability expressed by the lower [a quo] judge [Nencini, ed.] with reference to this part of the suspect’s narrative, [and] about the plausible implication from the fact herself was the first person mentioning for the first time [46] a possible sexual motive for the murder, at the time when the detectives still did not have the results from the cadaver examination, nor the autopsy report, nor the witnesses’ information, which was collected only subsequently, about the victim’s terrible scream and about the time when it was heard (witnesses Nara Capezzali, Antonella Monacchia and others), is certainly to be subscribed to. We make reference in particular to those declarations that the current appellant [Knox] produced on 11. 6. 2007 (p.96) inside the State Police headquarters. On the other hand, in the slanderous declarations against Lumumba, which earned her a conviction, the status of which is now protected as final judgement [giudicato], [they] had themselves exactly that premise in the narrative, that is: the presence of the young American woman inside the house in via della Pergola, a circumstance which nobody at that time – except obviously the other people present inside the house – could have known (quote p. 96).
According to the slanderous statements of Ms. Knox, she had returned home in the company of Lumumba, who she had met by chance in Piazza Grimana, and when Ms. Kercher arrived in the house, Knox’s companion directed sexual attentions toward the young English woman, then he went together with her in her room, from which the harrowing scream came. So, it was Lumumba who killed Meredith and she could affirm this since she was on the scene of crime herself, albeit in another room.

Another element against her is the mixed DNA traces, her and the victim’s one, in the “small bathroom”, an eloquent proof that anyway she had come into contact with the blood of the latter, which she tried to wash away from herself (it was, it seems, diluted blood, while the biological traces belonging to her would be the consequence of epithelial rubbing). The fact is very suspicious, but it’s not decisive, besides the known considerations about the sure nature and attribution of the traces in question.
Nonetheless, even if we deem the attribution certain, the trial element would not be unequivocal, since it may show also a posthumous touching of that blood, during the probable attempt of removing the most visible traces of what had happened, maybe to help cover up for someone or to steer away suspicion from herself, but not contributing to full certainty about her direct involvement in the murderous action. Any further and more pertaining interpretation in fact would be anyway resisted by the circumstance – this is decisive indeed – that no trace linkable to her was found on the scene of crime or on the victim’s body, so it follows – if we concede everything – that her contact with the victim’s blood happened in a subsequent moment and in another room of the house.

Another element against her is certainly constituted by the false accusations [calunnia] against Mr. Lumumba, afore-mentioned above. It is not understandable, in fact, what reason could have driven the young woman to produce such serious accusations. The theory that she did so in order to escape psychological pressure from detectives seems extremely fragile, given that the woman [47] could not fail to realize that such accusations directed against her boss would turn out to be false very soon, given that, as she knew very well, Mr. Lumumba had no relationship with Ms. Kercher nor with the Via della Pergola house.

Furthermore, the ability to present an ironclad alibi would have allowed Lumumba to obtain release and subsequently the dropping of charges. However, the said calunnia is another circumstantial element against the current appellant, insofar as it can be considered a strategy in order to cover up for Mr. Guede, whom she had an interest to protect because of fear of retaliatory accusations against her. This is confirmed by the fact that Mr. Lumumba, like Mr. Guede, is a man of colour, hence the indication of the first one would be safe in the event that the latter could have been seen by someone while entering or exiting the apartment.


And moreover, the staging of a theft in Romanelli’s room, which she is accused of, is also a relevant point within an incriminating picture, considering the elements of strong suspicion (location of glass shards – apparently resulting from the breaking of a glass window pane caused by the throwing of a rock from the outside – on top of, but also under clothes and furniture), a staging, which can be linked to someone who – as an author of the murder and a flatmate [titolare] with a formal [“qualified”] connection to the dwelling – had an interest to steer suspicion away from himself/herself, while a third murderer in contrast would be motivated by a very different urge after the killing, that is to leave the apartment as quickly as possible. But also this element is substantially ambiguous, especially if we consider the fact that when the postal police arrived – they arrived in Via della Pergola for another reason: to search for Ms. Romanelli, the owner of the telephone SIM card found inside one of the phones retrieved in via Sperandio – the current appellants themselves, Sollecito specifically, were the ones who pointed out the anomalous situation to the officers, as nothing appeared to be stolen from Ms. Romanelli’s room.

Elements of strong suspicion are also in the inconsistencies and lies which the suspect woman committed over the statements she released on various occasions, especially in the places where her narrative was contradicted by the telephone records showing different incoming SMS messages;


9. An umpteenth element of suspicion is the basic failure of the alibi linked to other, claimed human interactions in the computer of his belongings, albeit if we can’t talk about false alibi, since it’s more appropriate to speak about unsuccessful alibi. Finally, no certainty could be reached [was acquired] about the attribution to Mr. Sollecito of the footprints found in the via della Pergola house, about which the technical reports carried out have not gone beyond a judgement of “probable identity”, and not of certainty (p. 260/1). 9.4.2 (RS)


"9.4.1 Given this, we now note, with respect to Amanda Knox, that her presence inside the house, the location of the murder, is a proven fact in the trial,..."

Vixen, why do you think the words "...in the trial,..." follow on from "...is a proven fact..."?

Do you think it could be because the courts are bound by "factual" findings of the lower courts,.....perhaps? If it was a fact in the pure sense do you think "...in the trial,..." is necessary?
 
In the case of Stasi, in which the appellant relied heavily on the Knox-Sollecito case law, as set as precedent by Marasca, we see a good illustration of how a bad verdict - Marasca-Bruno - is demonstrated to be bad. Illogical, unworkable, confusing and undermining.

You are allowed your opinion I guess. However, there have been two, if not three newspieces posted here in the last few days from Italy which see it differently.

They see the M/B acquittals as representing the rule of law, with the Stasi conviction being a return to roulette wheel justice.

More to the point you have not provided anything other than your own opinion. You have not provided anything from Italy to sustain your belief that M/B was, "a bad verdict.... Illogical, unworkable, confusing and undermining." There it sits.
 
Your spoiler section follows this:

9.1 The intrinsically contradictory ensemble of the body of evidence, whose
objective uncertainty is already emphasised by the previously highlighted wavering
progress of the proceedings, does not therefore allow [us] to be satisfied to the
standard of [beyond a] reasonable doubt, whose establishment is an achievement of
legal culture that must, always and in any case, be upheld since it is the expression
of fundamental constitutional values, centered around the key role of the human
being in the judicial system, whose protection in the context of a trial is also
exercised by the principle of presumption of innocence until the definitive decision
[verdict], as per Article 27, section 2 of the Constitution.
9.2 The aspects of the objectively contradictory nature [of evidence] can be, as
shown below, illustrated for each defendant, in a synoptic presentation of the
elements favourable to the hypothesis of guilt and of the elements against it, as
they are shown, of course, by the text of the challenged ruling and of the previous ones.

So how do you assess this introduction to your favorite sections? It seems clear they are saying here's what the two sides contended. Then they look at some of the PG contentions and say even if true it isn't enough to prove guilt.

So for example they say that even if one accepts that Amanda was there when Meredith was killed it doesn't prove she was part of the murder. While I agree this is strange, it is what they say and most likely because of the byzantine nature of the Italian system's requirements of judicial truths.

ETA -Can you tell us what this means they are shown, of course, by the text of the challenged ruling and of the previous
ones.

If I am reading them right, the guilter-translation of 9.2/9.3 says essentially the same thing as the earlier translation. (As you have outlined).

More to the point, the original Italian version has been available since the end of September. Italians didn't need to wait for a "proper" English translation. The reaction to Marasca/Bruno in Italy is as noted.

It's only in the few English-language guilter sites that it's anything other. There it sits - with even their own translation setting up the synoptic-hypothetical to come.
 
No, it is the PIP who have personalised it and tried to turn the defendants into celebrities.

How is the anti-semitic remark relevant? In looking at character and what motivates a person, it is a mistake to assume you know what they meant or were thinking, based on one's own view and reactions to the world. This is why police and prosecution are trained to give testimony as straightforwardly and objectively as possible, and avoiding attributing motive, intention or emotion to the person spoken of.

This is because it is for the judge to do the inferring, when he or she comes to assessing the verdict after hearing all of the evidence in front of him or her.

How can we infer whether antisemitism is a motive for murder? We can objectively note that alleged perp was heard to say (objectively) "My people killed your people".

Together with other salient objectively observed actions and statements, a judge is able to make an inference.

Amanda did make the aforementioned comment. However, this "Matthew" chap did not bring this testimony to court, so we can disregard it as hearsay by journalist Charles Mudede, who reported it.

I am not sure Amanda's My Space page was part of the background evidence or not, but she did, indeed, write a caption under a controversial photograph of herself, which could be simply irony in bad taste, "the Nazi within".

She did describe her boss Patrick to police as, "the African ragazza" and accuse him of rape and murder.

So why wouldn't the judge infer Amanda was not a very nice person? It is relevant in deciding whether it is likely the person in front of them was the perp, together with a thousand and one other factors.

Mez, being of Anglo-Indian descent, could have been seen by a racist as someone worthy of degrading teatment, so I wouldn't say it is irrelevant to note Amanda's comments about being a Nazi.

Vixen still fails to understand the point I was making.
 
Bill Williams said:
Why is that? Italians themselves seem more interested in shining a spotlight on Mignini's peer censure, than the English-guilters still trying to divert onto Knox.

They are simply reporting the latest news.

I agree. Since March 2015, the "latest news" has been that M/B acquitted. Then Mignini got censured. Also that Sollecito is touring the country with his new book.

The "latest news" at any one period of time has not included anything to sustain your point of view.
 
I agree. Since March 2015, the "latest news" has been that M/B acquitted. Then Mignini got censured. Also that Sollecito is touring the country with his new book.

The "latest news" at any one period of time has not included anything to sustain your point of view.

I love how Vixen, sitting in her little basement in the UK believes she knows that in Italy that it's all going to turn around. Not even Andrea Vogt believes this and she's been Mignini's pipeline to the English speaking press. Vogt is very clear that this is over. She's even distancing herself from the crazies.
 
Bill Williams said:
I agree. Since March 2015, the "latest news" has been that M/B acquitted. Then Mignini got censured. Also that Sollecito is touring the country with his new book.

The "latest news" at any one period of time has not included anything to sustain your point of view.

I love how Vixen, sitting in her little basement in the UK believes she knows that in Italy that it's all going to turn around. Not even Andrea Vogt believes this and she's been Mignini's pipeline to the English speaking press. Vogt is very clear that this is over. She's even distancing herself from the crazies.

Apologies - there's one I forgot. It's from the newspiece that Grinder ferreted out. This is the "latest" of the latest news......

The judgment on the crime of Perugia, the last, the one that finally acquitted Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito of the charge of murdering Meredith Kercher, had established a number of principles. The scientific findings should be done with rigor , the investigations follow at least a decent minimum of logic, you must indicate the motive with a certain likelihood. Maybe not indulging in morbid reconstructions and moralistic (the orgetta attempted with the British student) who make accusations game, because the winks to unconventional sexuality always cast a bad light on the defendants.

Like it or not, in the dispute between colpevolisti and innocentisti that accompanies every great fact of crime (always), were the principles of legal culture finally to modern and civilized country. Applying them, it would also avoid the indecent spectacle of inquiries and above cumbersome processes coaster, flying up and down by the courts of appeal to the Supreme Court.

The confirmation of the sentence Stasi is a step backwards.​

This Italian newsservice is of the opinion that Marasca/Bruno set a new - and fair - standard. The only reason for saying this in a piece about Stasi, is to cite the Stasi-conviction as a "step backward" with what Marasca/Bruno had established.

Ok, now's it's someone else's turn to find something from Italy which is contrary to this.

No!? Is that because there is no contrary opinion in Italy?
 
Well Bill apparently the second calunnia trial against AK continues. TJMK has a report up including tweets from Mach from the Sept 7th hearing. There was another session the 7th of Dec.

The tweets:

16. Zugarini was present throughout the interrogation and described when #amandaknox started to cry, remembered her peculiar hand-ear gestures.

15. Napoleoni testified #amandaknox was brought a chamomille when she started crying at 01:45, the interrogation was immediately stopped.

14. Napoleoni and Zugarini said they “cuddled” Knox because she was a 20-year old girl.

13. Both Mignini and Zugarini described having had impression that #amandaknox was feeling “relieved of a burden” after accusing Lumumba.

12. Mignini said Knox was not clearly a suspect to him by the 05:45 interrogation.

11. Witnesses had inaccurate memory on some details, but were convergent on some peculiar details.

10. Napoleoni said she did not enter interrogation room, she called Rita Ficarra out to talk to her.

9. Zugarini said, as for her knowledge, Knox was not told that Sollecito withdrew her alibi.

8. Zugarini said called interpreter only to ask #amandaknox more precise questions about people in her phone contact list.

7. Zugarini said #amandaknox was able to explain herself in Italian. They called an interpreter to translate what police had to say.

6. Testimony of Mignini was descriptive and framed thing in law. Mostly talked at length explaining alone, prosecutor listened.

5. In today’s hearing, Mignini talked 2 hours, confirmed arrived at 3am, police interview was over, he asked no questions of AK.

4. Napoleoni was precise and synthetic. Zugarini longer and IMO more interesting on many details.

3. Mignini and Judge Boninsegna appeared irritated by Dalla Vedova’s remarks.

2. Long hearing of Mignini at trial against Amanda Knox for calunnia. Napoleoni & Gubbiotti followed, then Zugarini

1. Testimony of some of the investigators accused by Knox and the lead prosecutor Dr Mignini [image above] is being taken in court.

[Reporting from the Florence court sometimes requires a wait to get to a place where mobile phones can connect to the outside.]


Number 9 is interesting and continues to demonstrate the inconsistencies in this case.

So what about the PG meme that Amanda made up the Patrick story when she was told Raf had pulled the alibi?

When did Amanda first write about the alibi? How did she find out?
 
So I've reviewed the Memoriale #1 of Nov. 6th. She knows at this point that Raf has undermined her alibi. How could she possibly know this if the police didn't tell her during the interrogation?
 
"9.4.1 Given this, we now note, with respect to Amanda Knox, that her presence inside the house, the location of the murder, is a proven fact in the trial,..."

Vixen, why do you think the words "...in the trial,..." follow on from "...is a proven fact..."?

Do you think it could be because the courts are bound by "factual" findings of the lower courts,.....perhaps? If it was a fact in the pure sense do you think "...in the trial,..." is necessary?

The guilters always miss the qualifying and modifying words. For example, Vixen always forgets that they were acquitted.
 
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Well Bill apparently the second calunnia trial against AK continues. TJMK has a report up including tweets from Mach from the Sept 7th hearing. There was another session the 7th of Dec.

The tweets:

....
12. Mignini said Knox was not clearly a suspect to him by the 05:45 interrogation.

....
9. Zugarini said, as for her knowledge, Knox was not told that Sollecito withdrew her alibi.

8. Zugarini said called interpreter only to ask #amandaknox more precise questions about people in her phone contact list.

7. Zugarini said #amandaknox was able to explain herself in Italian. They called an interpreter to translate what police had to say.

....
5. In today’s hearing, Mignini talked 2 hours, confirmed arrived at 3am, police interview was over, he asked no questions of AK.


....


Number 9 is interesting and continues to demonstrate the inconsistencies in this case.

So what about the PG meme that Amanda made up the Patrick story when she was told Raf had pulled the alibi?

When did Amanda first write about the alibi? How did she find out?

So I've reviewed the Memoriale #1 of Nov. 6th. She knows at this point that Raf has undermined her alibi. How could she possibly know this if the police didn't tell her during the interrogation?

Thanks for posting this information. Here are some questions for consideration; some may not have easily available answers.

Does anyone know of any explanation that the police or prosecutor gave for requesting that Raffaele Sollecito come to the police station for questioning on that evening of Nov. 5, 2007?

Is there any information that contradicts Raffaele's assertion that the point of the questioning was to have him disavow that Amanda Knox had been within him for the entire night when Meredith was murdered? That is, the intent of the police - who, in accordance with Italian procedural law, conduct investigations under the direction of the prosecutor - was to break what the Italian authorities would regard as her alibi.

Considering that the prosecutor is in charge of directing the police in an investigation in Italy, the contradiction between Mignini's reported statement (#12) and Giobbi's testimony, in the trial by the Massei court, that Knox and Sollecito were suspected and therefore ordered in for questioning on Nov. 5 is interesting. If Giobbi was truthful, is there a reason for Mignini to be lying in this statement?

Zugarini's reported statements (#8 and #7) would seem to contradict the testimony of the interpreter (and self-styled mediator) given in the Massei court trial. What would be the motivation for this contradiction?

If Mignini arrived a 3 am, and asked no questions of Amanda Knox, why did she provide a "spontaneous" statement to him at 5:45 am, and why was it called a "spontaneous statement"? Where and when did Amanda learn this Italian legal terminology, which, applied to a truly voluntary statement, gives the statement a special credibility in an Italian trial?
 
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Well Bill apparently the second calunnia trial against AK continues. TJMK has a report up including tweets from Mach from the Sept 7th hearing. There was another session the 7th of Dec.

The tweets:

16. Zugarini was present throughout the interrogation and described when #amandaknox started to cry, remembered her peculiar hand-ear gestures.

15. Napoleoni testified #amandaknox was brought a chamomille when she started crying at 01:45, the interrogation was immediately stopped.

14. Napoleoni and Zugarini said they “cuddled” Knox because she was a 20-year old girl.

13. Both Mignini and Zugarini described having had impression that #amandaknox was feeling “relieved of a burden” after accusing Lumumba.

12. Mignini said Knox was not clearly a suspect to him by the 05:45 interrogation.

11. Witnesses had inaccurate memory on some details, but were convergent on some peculiar details.

10. Napoleoni said she did not enter interrogation room, she called Rita Ficarra out to talk to her.

9. Zugarini said, as for her knowledge, Knox was not told that Sollecito withdrew her alibi.

8. Zugarini said called interpreter only to ask #amandaknox more precise questions about people in her phone contact list.

7. Zugarini said #amandaknox was able to explain herself in Italian. They called an interpreter to translate what police had to say.

6. Testimony of Mignini was descriptive and framed thing in law. Mostly talked at length explaining alone, prosecutor listened.

5. In today’s hearing, Mignini talked 2 hours, confirmed arrived at 3am, police interview was over, he asked no questions of AK.

4. Napoleoni was precise and synthetic. Zugarini longer and IMO more interesting on many details.

3. Mignini and Judge Boninsegna appeared irritated by Dalla Vedova’s remarks.

2. Long hearing of Mignini at trial against Amanda Knox for calunnia. Napoleoni & Gubbiotti followed, then Zugarini

1. Testimony of some of the investigators accused by Knox and the lead prosecutor Dr Mignini [image above] is being taken in court.

[Reporting from the Florence court sometimes requires a wait to get to a place where mobile phones can connect to the outside.]


Number 9 is interesting and continues to demonstrate the inconsistencies in this case.

So what about the PG meme that Amanda made up the Patrick story when she was told Raf had pulled the alibi?

When did Amanda first write about the alibi? How did she find out?

#16 "remembered her peculiar hand-ear gestures" And?

#15 The first statement of Nov 6 was signed at 01:45. The exact time that Amanda started crying and the interview stopped?

#10 & #14 Did Napoleoni enter the room when she cuddled Amanda?

#13 Pure speculation

#12 Really? After what was written in the 01:45 statement?

#9 & #10 "Witness: Detective Lorena Zugarini
Lorena Zugarini:
Yes, there was Monica Napoleoni who every so often came there to see how it was going, and then told us that Raffaele Sollecito was not longer giving the big alibi as far as Amanda Knox was concerned."(from translation of witness statements at http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/the-interrogation/)

#7 & #8 Obviously Amanda wasn't fluent enough in Italian to conduct a police interview.

#5 & #6 If Mignini arrived at 03:00, what pearls of wisdom has he to offer about what happened during the interrogation that led to the signing of the 01:45 statement?
 
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