Continuation Part 19: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vixen]

Here's what us PIP actually believe: Rudy was invited in through the front door by Meredith. He then attacked her with two knives, one being a giant kitchen knife exactly the same as the one Raffaele had. Since his foot was now bloodied he needed to go wash off, but he didn't want to get any blood in the hallway because his dispute was with Meredith and it would be unfair to mess up stuff for the other girls. So using his basketball skills he one hopped it to the bathroom on one foot, like a euro step layup to the hoop, but never switching to the other foot. Then he cleaned up in there but saw he had left his footprint in blood on the bathmat. So he dribbled some extra blood near the toe knowing what Raffaele's foot was measured so it would match him, not to frame him for the murder, but so Amanda the next day would just think Raff had taken a shower there earlier and someone forgot to clean the bottom of the shower of a personal hygiene issue. Then he staged a break-in to make it look like a burglar did it since everyone knew he and Meredith were going steady as the kids call it. Then he went back into Meredith's room to put the blanket over her to mess up the body heat time of death since everyone in town knew the date was at 9:00. But He accidentally stepped in blood again and was too lazy to clean it off this time, and he walked straight out the room pulling and locking the door shut behind him with a string contraption he rigged up so he wouldn't have to waste valuable time turning around to face the door, which explains why his footprints head straight out.

ROFL very droll...oh wait...the PIP's actually believe this stuff. Blimey.

 

[Vixen]

[qimg]http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t189/zed0101/PerugiaFeet_zps67048ed7.jpg[/qimg]

I just don't see the match but I do see which one is most like the mat print and it isn't Raf's.

Oh right, the Italian forensic experts should have just asked Grinder.

 

[Vixen]

I'm so glad you posted this Grinder. It's been a couple of years since I looked at it. I can't remember which footprint belonged to Raffaele and which belonged to Rudy. I still can't say it is or isn't a match to either.

The so called scientific table of measurements that Vixen presented is a crock of poop. BTW, why is poop and crap acceptable and the "s" word is verboten?

Because poop is a namby-pamby euphemism and crap is derived from lavatory supremo Crapper, whereas **** is a good in-your-face true Anglo Saxon four letter word.

 

[Vixen]

I always thought the bathmat track was the worst piece of physical evidence used in the trial...but then you start thinking about it and it's really impossible to decide since it is all pretty bad.

Sorry to ask you the poop question. I thought you were an expert.

Raff must be sighing a breath of relief to have his team of great scientists successfully fending off Italian forensic expert results which depend on the precision of mathematical engineers, when all that's needed is a knowledge of fingerpainting.

 

[Vixen]

If we are revisiting the footprint...

Dan. O once did a forum poll to see how people unfamiliar with the prints would interpret them.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189522

Andreajo, bearing in mind the judges are legal bods and not scientists (despite Bruno's Gallileo yearnings), nonetheless, they were able to assess the evidence in front of them, holistically . It was not just the testimony of scientists and the police, but also people who actually knew Mez, for example her father and sister, Stephanie, who testified there was no way Mez would not feistily fight back if attacked. She was a person of drive and determination and it was these qualities that got her to Italy in the first place.

The judges looking at the case were able to ascertain she was held by the wrists with her arms wrenched behind her back (her shoulder was rendered paralysed). In addition, there were three different types of knife wounds, including knife flicks on her hands which Raff tried to preclude by saying he'd flicked her hand with a knife whilst cooking.

Bearing in mind the court came to the opinion Rudy left immediately after the assault, in his shoes, which he never removed and he never returned (he did say the hallway was covered with blood) and that the hallway and bathroom floor had been cleaned, and together with Rinaldi's & Boemia's expert analysis of the print on the bathmat, the merits courts did decree the print was remarkably compatible with Raff's foot and incompatible with either Rudy's or Amanda's.

From themurderofmeredithkerchercom--------quote

Not only are some of the individual measurements of Rudy’s imprint as much as 30% too small, but the relative proportions of length and breadth measurements are entirely wrong as well, both undershooting and overshooting by a large margin (70% to 150%).
In Judge Massei's court, Professor Vinci, Sollecito’s expert witness attempted to argue that the footprint was actually that of Guede, but this was rejected by the judges on the basis of the measurements shown above.[4] In addition, the court discounted the idea that Guede had ever been in his bare feet that evening. The visible shoe prints clearly showed that he had walked directly from Meredith’s room, down the hallway, and out of the door.[5]
The severity of the impact on the defense is such that there was even a distorted photoshopped version circulated by online supporters of Raffaele and Amanda until they were caught out early on in coverage.[6] But it is hopeless, because these are objective measurements, presented in court and recorded, in detail, in the judges' report.
-------ends
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/The_Bathmat_Footprint

 

[Bill Williams]

We are being asked to make a leap of faith and suspend credulity that LondonJohn sitting in his armchair on ISF knows better than experienced police forensic footprint analysts who have studied thousands of cases.

We are being asked - nay, ordered! - to believe not only are Italian police all corrupt through and through, especially Napoleoni, the prosecutors, especially Mignini, judges (except the ignominously annulled Hellmann) and forensic guys, especially Stefanoni, but police scientists Drs Rinaldi and Boemia, too.

According to LondonJohn, Boemia and Rinaldi faked the footprint analyses because they had a soft spot for Rudy and were out to "get the kids".

<fx Brummie accent*> Yes, mate!

*For our American friends, a Brummie accent is renowned in England for conveying the full range of scepticism in its tone, from scorn and derision to amusement and jeer.

Ask to believe because of LondonJohn?

Why not because of what Marasca/Bruno wrote in Section 4? They described a flawed investigation and amnesiac judicial reckoning. No use in picking on LondonJohn, every news outlet in Italy which has commented sides with the stuff LJ is saying.

Tell you what - point to **one** Italian source which agrees with you? Mignini and Stefanoni don't count. Massei and Nencini have been annuled.

 

[Bill Williams]

Andreajo, bearing in mind the judges are legal bods and not scientists (despite Bruno's Gallileo yearnings), nonetheless, they were able to assess the evidence in front of them, holistically . It was not just the testimony of scientists and the police, but also people who actually knew Mez, for example her father and sister, Stephanie, who testified there was no way Mez would not feistily fight back if attack. She was a person of drive and determination and it was these qualities that got her to Italy in the first place.

The judges looking at the case were able to ascertain she was held by the wrists with her arms wrenched behind her back (her shoulder was rendered paralysed). In addition there were three different types of knife woulds, including knife flicks on her hands which Raff tried to preclude by saying he'd flicked her hand with a knife whilst cooking.

Bearing in mind the court came to the opinion Rudy left immediately after the assault, in his shoes, which he never removed and he never returned (he did say the hallway was covered with blood) and that the hallway and bathroom floor had been cleaned, and together with Rinaldi & Boemia's expert analysis of the print on the bathmat, the merits courts did decree the print was remarkably compatible with Raff's foot and incompatible with either Rudy's or Amanda's.

From themurderofmeredithkerchercom--------quote

Not only are some of the individual measurements of Rudy’s imprint as much as 30% too small, but the relative proportions of length and breadth measurements are entirely wrong as well, both undershooting and overshooting by a large margin (70% to 150%).
In Judge Massei's court, Professor Vinci, Sollecito’s expert witness attempted to argue that the footprint was actually that of Guede, but this was rejected by the judges on the basis of the measurements shown above.[4] In addition, the court discounted the idea that Guede had ever been in his bare feet that evening. The visible shoe prints clearly showed that he had walked directly from Meredith’s room, down the hallway, and out of the door.[5]
The severity of the impact on the defense is such that there was even a distorted photoshopped version circulated by online supporters of Raffaele and Amanda until they were caught out early on in coverage.[6] But it is hopeless, because these are objective measurements, presented in court and recorded, in detail, in the judges' report.
-------ends
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/The_Bathmat_Footprint

Rudy never removed his shoes? And you know this..... how? Have you read the M/B report which calls the investigation fundamentally flawed?

The really strange thing is that none of the fake-Wiki's factoids are sustained even by the convicting judges.

 

[acbytesla]

Oh right, the Italian forensic experts should have just asked Grinder.

They should have. Grinder is an exacting pain in the ass. (Sorry Grinder, but even you know this is true) The Italian forensic experts that worked for the police were sloppy dishonest lying fools. But in the end the Italian Courts made the right decision on this case.

 

[acbytesla]

Ask to believe because of LondonJohn?

Why not because of what Marasca/Bruno wrote in Section 4? They described a flawed investigation and amnesiac judicial reckoning. No use in picking on LondonJohn, every news outlet in Italy which has commented sides with the stuff LJ is saying.

Tell you what - point to **one** Italian source which agrees with you? Mignini and Stefanoni don't count. Massei and Nencini have been annuled.

Oh c'mon Bill, she'll be able to find one...probably a few. Machiavelli, SomeAlibi, Commodi,

 

[Vixen]

I am reading Burial Rites by Hannah Kent. It is a fictionalized account of the time between Agnes Magnúsdóttir's murder conviction and her execution by beheading (Iceland, 1830). The way Kent writes the varied reactions of others to the murderess and the way that she writes Agnes' internal monologue frequently bring Amanda's case to mind. I know this isn't a book club, but I thought that those who are particularly interested in the human interactions in Amanda's case might find it an interesting read.

I'll have a look.

However, it may be a mistake to imagine a sociopathic killer has the same range of emotions and empathy as a normal person.

Albert Camus' L'étranger (The Outsider), deals with the philosophical issue of a man accused of killing an Arab on the beach, is suspected of being guilty because he didn't cry when his mother died.

Also, The Fall a barrister who in his own words tells of how he coldbloodedly watched a person drown. It could be where Phil Collins got his idea of 'In the Air Tonight' about how he watches a rival drown, as a moment he has been "waiting for all my life".

Yes, fiction can help inform what makes incomprehensible acts rational.

 

[Bill Williams]

Looks like what's to come is a guilter PR-effort to advertise the fake-Wiki. And then the ad hominems will restart.

 

[acbytesla]

Because poop is a namby-pamby euphemism and crap is derived from lavatory supremo Crapper, whereas **** is a good in-your-face true Anglo Saxon four letter word.

This anomaly is much more interesting than the **** ...I mean poop or crap that you post about the case. It's like you're marching through the myths one by one.

 

[Vixen]

What I heard when I joined it is because Randi is a bit of a prude and wanted a loftier tone on a board with his name on it. That's why we could call Judge Massei a poopyhead but not a **** for brains--obviously, it's far more intellectually advanced and appropriate at a church lemonade social. Now that we are out from under his puritanical thumb you'd think a freer, more relaxed air would sweep through the board, but no, not yet.

I don't like profanities either, but I do prefer pithy in your face anglo saxon words.

But yes, no, no swearing, please.

 

[Vixen]

This anomaly is much more interesting than the **** ...I mean poop or crap that you post about the case. It's like you're marching through the myths one by one.

You silver-tongued charmer.

 

[Vixen]

Can you, in your inimitable way, explain the issue of Rudi's missing footprints or shoe-prints in relationship to the harry rag bathmat?

For me it is a simple explanation. He had blood on one shoe and left those prints and later after the blood had worn off he went to the bathroom and washed his leg off and then stepped on the mat.

Any theory as to why the bathmat was found facing the wrong way from the sink.

Please don't begin your answer, "As Rudy was cleaning up after himself..."

 

[Vixen]

The following quote is from a Lockerbie thread,from a seasoned observer of what drives the various "sides" in these debates:

​

There are many corollaries to this. One corollary which can be fashioned surrounds the claim above, which seems to be dismissing the reality of the bathmat-foottrack being found on the soft-cloth of the mat-material.

It's a simple dismissmal, that claims to explain so much: "Of course footprints are measurable. We know it's a porous cotton bathmat so we adjust for it. The fact it is diluted blood is neither here nor there. "

Adjust for it? Adjusting for it is like Cinderella's step-sisters trying to cram their feet into the glass-slipper! All the while, with a rather wide margin-of -error introduced by the porous cotton, that the commentator dismisses with the way of a hand.

The important thing, is what it proves: not how one arrives at the proof.

Corollary #1.

So you concede: "velly difficult, clam big foot in little shoe". Progress.

 

[Vixen]

Yes, it is a lot of comments in a short period of time, but what she is doing is energetically defending her arguments.

Deleted.

 

[Grinder]

They should have. Grinder is an exacting pain in the ass. (Sorry Grinder, but even you know this is true) The Italian forensic experts that worked for the police were sloppy dishonest lying fools. But in the end the Italian Courts made the right decision on this case.

Tesla thanks Yes I would have been able to tell the court that precise measurements on the Harry Rag mat are impossible. The chart that the great scientist "Some Alibi" put together implies not states that no spread occurred because the measurements just come to Raf's size. That would mean that when the dripping wet foot hit the mat the liquid wouldn't have spread at all.

This whole analysis by all the PGP is the classic missing the forest for the trees. Look at the two feet and it is easy to see whose foot more closely matches, Rudi's.

 

[Grinder]

I'll have a look.

However, it may be a mistake to imagine a sociopathic killer has the same range of emotions and empathy as a normal person.

Albert Camus' L'étranger (The Outsider), deals with the philosophical issue of a man accused of killing an Arab on the beach, is suspected of being guilty because he didn't cry when his mother died.

Also, The Fall a barrister who in his own words tells of how he coldbloodedly watched a person drown. It could be where Phil Collins got his idea of 'In the Air Tonight' about how he watches a rival drown, as a moment he has been "waiting for all my life".

Yes, fiction can help inform what makes incomprehensible acts rational.

More that he was convicted for not crying but he only acted in self defense.

Camus wrote: "I summarized The Stranger a long time ago, with a remark I admit was highly paradoxical: 'In our society any man who does not weep at his mother's funeral runs the risk of being sentenced to death.' I only meant that the hero of my book is condemned because he does not play the game."

From what I remember Massei was the judge and Mignini the prosecutor.

 

[Vixen]

Tesla thanks Yes I would have been able to tell the court that precise measurements on the Harry Rag mat are impossible. The chart that the great scientist "Some Alibi" put together implies not states that no spread occurred because the measurements just come to Raf's size. That would mean that when the dripping wet foot hit the mat the liquid wouldn't have spread at all.

This whole analysis by all the PGP is the classic missing the forest for the trees. Look at the two feet and it is easy to see whose foot more closely matches, Rudi's.

Bit rich Tesla calling you a PITA. However, blood does have certain interesting properties. As it dries, it does indeed leave a characteristic outline, due to its protein content. So, even if diluted with blood, it doesn't expand on porous material, unlike water which does spread outwards.