• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Continuation Part 19: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

Status
Not open for further replies.
Vixen said:
Actually, Amanda herself chillingly writes in her Prison Diary she carried a kitchen knife in her bag from Germany.

So you reckon it was Rudy Amanda shared a shower with? After all, Mez' blood mixed 50-50 with both hers and Mez' DNA was there on the cotton buds box.

Another forensic error?

Mixed blood? Wrong! Lessee, that's the 7th time in these continuations that factoid has been trotted out. Once again, not in Massei.....

And the kitchen knife..... you're tettering on suggesting that Massei is incompetent for not mentioning the factoid, above, in his motivations report. Whose side are you on?
 
What on earth are you talking about?

Do you really, seriously believe that the only way in which that print - which was, by the way, made from a very dilute mixture of blood and water (and that's a pretty big clue, in fact) - was made was as the culmination of a series of other prints leading from Kercher's bedroom? If so, then you're as ignorant and blinkered as the prosecution and the Massei court. But fortunately the Supreme Court - and most commentators with a modicum of scientific understanding and objective analysis - does not share that stupidity and/or bias.

In fact, the most likely way in which that print was deposited (and, as promised, I come back here to the ginormous clue that the print was made in a very dilute mixture of blood and water) is that the person who made the print (Guede, almost certainly) had blood on his clothes (but not on the soles of his shoes at this point) after having murdered Kercher. The person went to the small bathroom, and used either the shower or the bidet (IMO it was the shower) to wash the copious blood off his trouser leg. In order to step into either the shower or the bidet, the person removed his shoe and placed his foot directly onto the bowl of the bidet or the floor of the shower.

With me so far, Vixen?

So we have the person washing blood off his trousers, while standing barefoot as the diluted blood/water mixture pools around his foot. The person then removes his foot from the shower or bidet - quite possibly forgetting that it had dilute blood on its sole - and stepped onto the mat. Thereby depositing the print onto the mat. And thereby explaining easily how there were no other bloody footprints between Kercher's bedroom and the small bathroom.

See - it really doesn't take any sort of "Professor Brainiac" to figure this sort of stuff out, Vixen. All it takes is a reasonable intellect, a reasonably scientific mind, an ability to analyse in a rational and objective manner, and a genuine desire to seek the truth without any preconception, bias or vengeance. I guess that if one doesn't possess many (or any) of these traits, it must seem like this is all "Brainiac" stuff. But it really isn't, you know.


So how come no Rudy DNA or blood or fibres were found in the small bathroom, but Amanda's blood was on the tap/faucet?

As more of a scientist/mathematician type myself, I find the actual scientific measurements by experienced forensic footprint analysts more compelling than a hypothetical "what-if" scenario by detractors. The scientists measured the print - the idea "it's just a blob and cannot be measured" sounds like a defence excuse, as of course it can be measured. "Anything up to size 49," indeed as if anyone seriously considers a 6'9" person could be the culprit.

I went for a foot orthotic as I have a tendency to overpronate (low arch, which causes foot to roll inward) and the poditrician took a quick 3-D laser image of my foot, and now I have an arch support insole unique to me!

Of course footprints are measurable. We know it's a porous cotton bathmat so we adjust for it. The fact it is diluted blood is neither here nor there. The footprint of one person in such conditions will be measureably different from another. In addition, it is nothing to do with, "what it looks like".

We can measure, angles, focal points, pressure areas, width, space between toes. Raff has a distinct hammer toe, which is apparent here, and is one of the reasons Drs Rinaldi and Boemia identified the print as his.

The fact you assert, "It is Rudy's footprint" when you have just said it could be anybody's tells me that deep in your heart you know your protagonists are not innocent, because otherwise the correct question would be, "Who are the other two perpetrators, if they are not Amanda and Raff", or at least, "The other one"?

What is it to you it is identified as Raff's foot? Do you have a special affinity for towards these people that you've decided to defend them even in the face of a clear footrpint in Mez' blood that is extremely compatible with Raff, and incompatible with either Rudy or Amanda?
 
We already know of Rudy's guilt. It is a logical fallacy to claim, "As Rudy is guilty, therefore the kids are innocent".
You have been told by four courts, including Marasca of the Supreme Court, there was more than one perpetrator.

Not really since there is no credible evidence linking Rudy to Raffaele and/or Amanda. At best you can say is that Rudy had "met" Amanda and that is all. There is no proof of any kind that he had ever met Raffaele. EVER Rudy was seen by CCTV cameras twice outside the cottage that night and neither Amanda were recorded by any CCTV camera that evening. And finally there were no phone calls, texts or emails ever between Rudy and Raff or Amanda. Rudy Skypes Giacomo and says Amanda wasn't there. Frankly, I find all this very convincing.

You can speculate that there was more between Rudy and Amanda or Raffaele, but you don't have a shred of evidence to back it up.
 
So you reckon it was Rudy Amanda shared a shower with? After all, Mez' blood mixed 50-50 with both hers and Mez' DNA was there on the cotton buds box.

Another forensic error?

Are you saying that Amanda's DNA was in her bathroom? Shocking! Shocking I tell you.

Btw, do you usually dry off after a shower with Q-tips?
 
So how come no Rudy DNA or blood or fibres were found in the small bathroom,


Because Guede rinsed out the shower well once he'd stepped out of it (and Knox showered in the same shower the next morning, further removing any possible vestige of Guede), and there were no other places where he might potentially have shed his DNA anyhow. Next.


but Amanda's blood was on the tap/faucet?


Because Knox used that small bathroom every day for her ablutions, and because Knox had bled from her earlier badly-performed ear piercings. And the droplet/smear of Knox's blood on the tap was easy to miss, especially in a small, low-lit bathroom (after all, if Knox really had participated in the murder and had deposited the blood at that time, it's rather compelling to think that she would have sought to "clean up" that blood too, dontcha think? And exactly the same reasons why she might have missed it in any hypothetical post-murder clean up are the very same reasons why she might have missed it when her ear dropped some blood after the piercings). Next.


As more of a scientist/mathematician type myself,


You're not demonstrating much evidence of this within this thread, unfortunately. Next.

I find the actual scientific measurements by experienced forensic footprint analysts more compelling than a hypothetical "what-if" scenario by detractors. The scientists measured the print - the idea "it's just a blob and cannot be measured" sounds like a defence excuse, as of course it can be measured. "Anything up to size 49," indeed as if anyone seriously considers a 6'9" person could be the culprit.


That's because you don't understand the actual PROPER science behind this matter. The proper science tells us that you simply cannot measure the dimensions of a print made in a saturated medium on a thickly-tufted bathmat whose fibres and textures wick and distort the imprint in all sorts of ways, with absolutely no knowledge of how much weight was or was not placed onto that foot at the time of the deposit, then compare those measurements with reference prints made on a flat, hard paper surface using printer's ink and a standard weight-bearing footfall. Get it now? Next.



I went for a foot orthotic as I have a tendency to overpronate (low arch, which causes foot to roll inward) and the poditrician took a quick 3-D laser image of my foot, and now I have an arch support insole unique to me!


This anecdote is both utterly irrelevant and totally non-applicable to the matter under discussion. Astonishing that you felt its inclusion might possibly have added anything to the debate. Next.


Of course footprints are measurable. We know it's a porous cotton bathmat so we adjust for it. The fact it is diluted blood is neither here nor there. The footprint of one person in such conditions will be measureably different from another. In addition, it is nothing to do with, "what it looks like".


So just how did "we adjust for it", Vixen? I'd be fascinated to know exactly how these (mythical) adjustments were made. What "adjustments" did Rinaldi, Boemia, SomeAlibi or you make to take account of the texture, material, movable tufting, saturation spread and footfall characteristics which all will have played a significant role in shaping the partial print on the bathmat? What's that you say? NO ADJUSTMENTS??! Really?! Next.


We can measure, angles, focal points, pressure areas, width, space between toes. Raff has a distinct hammer toe, which is apparent here, and is one of the reasons Drs Rinaldi and Boemia identified the print as his.


This is entirely bogus pseudoscience on the one hand, and a really dreadfully improper case of suspect-centric analysis on the other hand. What Rinaldi and Boemia claim to be there in terms of Sollecito's toe characteristic simply is NOT THERE. It's a simple case of people seeing what they want (need?) to see.

And I'll say again, if the bathmat print really DID show Sollecito's unusual toe shape (from his reference print) with sufficient reliability and accuracy as to enable a positive match, then Sollecito (and probably also Knox) would have been convicted. And I (and many others) would switch to a belief in their guilt. But the reason they are ACQUITTED - and why I and many others contend that there's zero reliable, credible evidence of their participation and that they almost certainly played no role in Kercher's murder - is that in fact it's impossible to match any aspect of the bathmat partial print to Sollecito's reference print. Next.


The fact you assert, "It is Rudy's footprint" when you have just said it could be anybody's tells me that deep in your heart you know your protagonists are not innocent, because otherwise the correct question would be, "Who are the other two perpetrators, if they are not Amanda and Raff", or at least, "The other one"?


Where do I assert "the footprint is a positive match to Guede"? Because you appear to be still tragically unable to understand the distinction (and the cause/effect correlation). What I ACTUALLY assert is this: 1) It's impossible to positively match the print to Sollecito OR Guede; 2) It's impossible to exclude the print from Sollecito or Guede; 3) all the other evidence points towards (and is totally compatible with) Guede as sole perpetrator, and not one single credible, reliable piece of evidence points towards Sollecito's participation; 4) therefore, IMO it's reasonable to suggest that the footprint belongs to Guede.

So, in other words, I'm not asserting that the print is Guede's because the print can be positively matched to Guede - but rather I'm asserting that since Guede cannot be excluded as the source of the print, and since all the other evidence points strongly to Guede as sole perpetrator, it's therefore reasonable to posit that the print belongs to Guede. Can you see how the logic - applied properly - works here? Next.


What is it to you it is identified as Raff's foot? Do you have a special affinity for towards these people that you've decided to defend them even in the face of a clear footrpint in Mez' blood that is extremely compatible with Raff, and incompatible with either Rudy or Amanda?


A more pertinent question is why you (and many others) seem to have some weird need to believe that most/all pro-acquittal/pro-innocence commentators actually believe Knox and Sollecito to be guilty, but that we choose for some reason to promote an argument for their acquittal/innocence despite that belief. Oh, and the print is not incompatible with Guede. That's rather important in the circumstances. Next. Oh... there is no next. For now.
 
We already know of Rudy's guilt. It is a logical fallacy to claim, "As Rudy is guilty, therefore the kids are innocent".

You have been told by four courts, including Marasca of the Supreme Court, there was more than one perpetrator.


You still have no grasp of the machinations and constraints of the Supreme Court in this case, do you? Probably because you're gulping down the KoolAid from certain other strident (and ignorant/vindictive) pro-guilt commentators.

And in addition, you also appear to have no grasp of the utterly improper paradox that presented itself in Guede's trial process (where this incorrect idea of multiple perps got nailed down as judicial "fact"), where both the prosecution and defence had a strong vested interest in the courts ruling that there were multiple people present at the murder.

And on top of that, you appear to have either ignored or failed to understand the testimony of the many pathologists and medical experts, who testified - virtually unanimously - that everything (types of injuries, pattern of injuries, crime scene, etc) made it impossible to conclude whether one or more assailants was involved.
 
You've converted me - in a blinding road to Damascus moment - that of course it's Rudy's print. Staggered by your perspicacity and grasp of scientific concepts, I am a total believer!

Just one question: did Rudy make an Olympic record leap from Mez' room to land square on the bathmat without leaving any footprints in between? Did he sort of come back later, after all the disco dancing, to clean up all his surrounding footprints, making sure to leave a trail of his own blood-caked one-legged prints?

We are all gathered around our PC's holding our collective breath for Professor Brainiac's next astonishing scientific insights.

Here's what us PIP actually believe: Rudy was invited in through the front door by Meredith. He then attacked her with two knives, one being a giant kitchen knife exactly the same as the one Raffaele had. Since his foot was now bloodied he needed to go wash off, but he didn't want to get any blood in the hallway because his dispute was with Meredith and it would be unfair to mess up stuff for the other girls. So using his basketball skills he one hopped it to the bathroom on one foot, like a euro step layup to the hoop, but never switching to the other foot. Then he cleaned up in there but saw he had left his footprint in blood on the bathmat. So he dribbled some extra blood near the toe knowing what Raffaele's foot was measured so it would match him, not to frame him for the murder, but so Amanda the next day would just think Raff had taken a shower there earlier and someone forgot to clean the bottom of the shower of a personal hygiene issue. Then he staged a break-in to make it look like a burglar did it since everyone knew he and Meredith were going steady as the kids call it. Then he went back into Meredith's room to put the blanket over her to mess up the body heat time of death since everyone in town knew the date was at 9:00. But He accidentally stepped in blood again and was too lazy to clean it off this time, and he walked straight out the room pulling and locking the door shut behind him with a string contraption he rigged up so he wouldn't have to waste valuable time turning around to face the door, which explains why his footprints head straight out.
 
Here's what us PIP actually believe: Rudy was invited in through the front door by Meredith. He then attacked her with two knives, one being a giant kitchen knife exactly the same as the one Raffaele had. Since his foot was now bloodied he needed to go wash off, but he didn't want to get any blood in the hallway because his dispute was with Meredith and it would be unfair to mess up stuff for the other girls. So using his basketball skills he one hopped it to the bathroom on one foot, like a euro step layup to the hoop, but never switching to the other foot. Then he cleaned up in there but saw he had left his footprint in blood on the bathmat. So he dribbled some extra blood near the toe knowing what Raffaele's foot was measured so it would match him, not to frame him for the murder, but so Amanda the next day would just think Raff had taken a shower there earlier and someone forgot to clean the bottom of the shower of a personal hygiene issue. Then he staged a break-in to make it look like a burglar did it since everyone knew he and Meredith were going steady as the kids call it. Then he went back into Meredith's room to put the blanket over her to mess up the body heat time of death since everyone in town knew the date was at 9:00. But He accidentally stepped in blood again and was too lazy to clean it off this time, and he walked straight out the room pulling and locking the door shut behind him with a string contraption he rigged up so he wouldn't have to waste valuable time turning around to face the door, which explains why his footprints head straight out.


:D:thumbsup:
 
PerugiaFeet_zps67048ed7.jpg


I just don't see the match but I do see which one is most like the mat print and it isn't Raf's.
 
[qimg]http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t189/zed0101/PerugiaFeet_zps67048ed7.jpg[/qimg]

I just don't see the match but I do see which one is most like the mat print and it isn't Raf's.


You mean you can't see the millimetre-accurate match between the bathmat print and Sollecito's reference print???!!!! It's right there in front of you, for God's sake! Can't you SEE it?!

And while you're at it, don't tell me you can't also see the clear and obvious imprint of Sollecito's mildly-unusual toes in the bathmat print? Whaddaya mean you can't see it? Have you got eyes in your head?! It's right there! THERE!! LOOK!!! RIGHT THERE!!!!!!

;)
 
You mean you can't see the millimetre-accurate match between the bathmat print and Sollecito's reference print???!!!! It's right there in front of you, for God's sake! Can't you SEE it?!

And while you're at it, don't tell me you can't also see the clear and obvious imprint of Sollecito's mildly-unusual toes in the bathmat print? Whaddaya mean you can't see it? Have you got eyes in your head?! It's right there! THERE!! LOOK!!! RIGHT THERE!!!!!!

;)

It seems obvious to me.

The footprint on the mat is a right foot.

Raff has a right foot.

Therefore..........................
 
[qimg]http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t189/zed0101/PerugiaFeet_zps67048ed7.jpg[/qimg]

I just don't see the match but I do see which one is most like the mat print and it isn't Raf's.

I'm so glad you posted this Grinder. It's been a couple of years since I looked at it. I can't remember which footprint belonged to Raffaele and which belonged to Rudy. I still can't say it is or isn't a match to either.

The so called scientific table of measurements that Vixen presented is a crock of poop. BTW, why is poop and crap acceptable and the "s" word is verboten?
 
Last edited:
You mean you can't see the millimetre-accurate match between the bathmat print and Sollecito's reference print???!!!! It's right there in front of you, for God's sake! Can't you SEE it?!

And while you're at it, don't tell me you can't also see the clear and obvious imprint of Sollecito's mildly-unusual toes in the bathmat print? Whaddaya mean you can't see it? Have you got eyes in your head?! It's right there! THERE!! LOOK!!! RIGHT THERE!!!!!!

;)

Well John as you know I have a hard time keeping up. To me the only noticeable part is at the front of the foot next to the big toe on the right. The notch looks more like the foot on the right.

And yes just looking at the images can tell somebody something.
 
I'm so glad you posted this Grinder. It's been a couple of years since I looked at it. I can't remember which footprint belonged to Raffaele and which belonged to Rudy. I still can't say it is or isn't a match to either.

The so called scientific table of measurements that Vixen presented is a crock of poop. BTW, why is poop and crap acceptable and the "s" word is verboten?

Ess if I know?

The foot on the right must be Rudi's as the one on the left has the wide big toe. The blotch of the big toe print is what they focused on instead of the notch next to it. Since the foot was wet with bloody water, if the foot was put down toe first, blood would have dripped off it onto the harry rag mat exaggerating the size. Regardless as a stand alone piece of evidence it means nothing. Did they take a reference print from Koko?

If something like this is used, they should have a line-up of 10 similar feet prints and see if the witness could id the perp's feet without having knowledge, a blind test which the Italians should be naturals at. :p
 
Last edited:
Ess if I know?

The foot on the right must be Rudi's as the one on the left has the wide big toe. The blotch of the big toe print is what they focused on instead of the notch next to it. Since the foot was wet with bloody water, if the foot was put down toe first, blood would have dripped off it onto the harry rag mat exaggerating the size. Regardless as a stand alone piece of evidence it means nothing. Did they take a reference print from Koko?

If something like this is used, they should have a line-up of 10 similar feet prints and see if the witness could id the perp's feet without having knowledge, a blind test which the Italians should be naturals at. :p

Exactly. It's a track not a print. Take a lineup of a dozen similar size feet and ask people to pick the one that matches. That would prove definitively how absurd using this as proof is.
 
Exactly. It's a track not a print. Take a lineup of a dozen similar size feet and ask people to pick the one that matches. That would prove definitively how absurd using this as proof is.

Even better would be to have the ten feet leave their prints on a harry rag mat using very watery blood. Of course they should also do the same for the "footprints" in the house that are compatible with most of the women that lived there.
 
Even better would be to have the ten feet leave their prints on a harry rag mat using very watery blood. Of course they should also do the same for the "footprints" in the house that are compatible with most of the women that lived there.

I always thought the bathmat track was the worst piece of physical evidence used in the trial...but then you start thinking about it and it's really impossible to decide since it is all pretty bad.

Sorry to ask you the poop question. I thought you were an expert. :p
 
I am reading Burial Rites by Hannah Kent. It is a fictionalized account of the time between Agnes Magnúsdóttir's murder conviction and her execution by beheading (Iceland, 1830). The way Kent writes the varied reactions of others to the murderess and the way that she writes Agnes' internal monologue frequently bring Amanda's case to mind. I know this isn't a book club, but I thought that those who are particularly interested in the human interactions in Amanda's case might find it an interesting read.
 
BTW, why is poop and crap acceptable and the "s" word is verboten?
What I heard when I joined it is because Randi is a bit of a prude and wanted a loftier tone on a board with his name on it. That's why we could call Judge Massei a poopyhead but not a **** for brains--obviously, it's far more intellectually advanced and appropriate at a church lemonade social. Now that we are out from under his puritanical thumb you'd think a freer, more relaxed air would sweep through the board, but no, not yet.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom