Continuation Part 19: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vixen]

I have a bloody bath mat gag gift

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/EXHWag8.jpg[/qimg]

And using differential geometry and Common Core I was able to rule out Raffaele. If he didn't leave this print it's common sense he didn't leave the one in the cottage.

I am glad you find it amusing Raff left his calling card footprint in Mez' blood.

 

[Grinder]

I am glad you find it amusing Raff left his calling card footprint in Mez' blood.

If anything is amusing, it is that you and PGP bring out this watery foot print on a cotton harry rag and even though it isn't called a match by anyone claim it is. The worst analysis for Raf that anyone can make is that it looks more like his than Rudi. Most of us don't agree but no one says it is a match. The wide big toe most likely was caused by the dripping liquid.

 

[Bill Williams]

While many here thought that the second trial in the Italian system was one of their better features, having a second trial de novo. What seems to be missing in their system is an appeal level where evidence allowed in the trial by the trial judge can be challenged. I won't be surprised if I don't have that exactly right but except for the ISC ruling that Amanda's spontaneous statements from 1:45 and 5:45 inadmissible, I don't remember any evidence being declared inadmissible. Hellmann said the footprint (who uses foottrack? Maybe a Canadian ) wasn't a match but he didn't throw it out. I'm not sure about the DNA but I think they left it in but not reliable. The bits of DNA of kids would not have been admitted in most countries because of the lab, the gathering and handling and before the test results would even be analyzed.

Italians, at least the ones who do serious forensics....

From Massei:

It must first be noted that Professor Vinci disagrees with the some of the
terminological choices of the consultants of the prosecution. In the opinion of this
technical consultant, one should not speak of "print" but of a "track"[orma], as the
term "print" should be reserved uniquely for prints containing "ridges", not for foot
outlines.​

Sometimes Grinder is not very Grinder-like. Must be he holidays.

 

[Bill Williams]

More Italian news coverage of the growing judicial scandal surrounding Marasca's and Bruno's illegal and unconstitutional acquittals Mignini's censure at the hand of peers - for denying a suspect/arrestee rights.

http://www.cronacaedossier.it/meredith-kercher-laltra-verita-pm-sanzionato/

 

[Vixen]

Seriously? You trot the bath mat print out here? It is not a conclusive match to anyone. Not Raffaele, not even Rudy.and not to the billions of men who did not provide their feet as possible comparison.

It's a fuzzy blob on a very poor substrate. For all the measuremen's taken it ignores certain specific problems with the analysis. It is unlikely that blood was evenly applied to the bottom of the killers foot. There is no way to determine if the killer was applying uneven pressure which would have distorted the print on the bathmat. Lastly it was a FUZZY BATHMAT!

I've asked lots of people to blindly choose which sample print matches the bathmat. Most pick Rudy's but it's not conclusive. No one felt sure it was a match. No one.

Did you? I asked the neighbourhood cats which ones they'd choose and 40% of them put their paw on the Rudy picture, too. 20% refused to be herded, 20% hissed and spat and 20% sniffed at Raff's picture, 10% of whom stuck their nose in the air and stalked off majestically.

 

[LondonJohn]

Did you? I asked the neighbourhood cats which ones they'd choose and 40% of them put their paw on the Rudy picture, too. 20% refused to be herded, 20% hissed and spat and 20% sniffed at Raff's picture, 10% of whom stuck their nose in the air and stalked off majestically.

Then the cats did substantially better than you at applying objective, well-reasoned and non-vindictive analysis of the bathmat partial print. Imagine that!

 

[LondonJohn]

I am glad you find it amusing Raff left his calling card footprint in Mez' blood.

You do know that it wasn't Sollecito who made that partial print on the bath mat, don't you?

(Oh God, maybe you really DON'T know that. Maybe it's worse than I could even imagine....)

 

[Vixen]

If anything is amusing, it is that you and PGP bring out this watery foot print on a cotton harry rag and even though it isn't called a match by anyone claim it is. The worst analysis for Raf that anyone can make is that it looks more like his than Rudi. Most of us don't agree but no one says it is a match. The wide big toe most likely was caused by the dripping liquid.

It is nothing to do with a subjective opinion of "what it looks like". It was scientifically measured by forensic footprint experts with a serious job to do.

 

[LondonJohn]

It is nothing to do with a subjective opinion of "what it looks like". It was scientifically measured by forensic footprint experts with a serious job to do.

YESSSSS! It's SomeAlibi's world-infamous "millimetre precision" comparative analysis! Get in!

Always good to have a laugh at such risibly poor and unscientific "analysis" in the run up to Christmas, dontcha think?

 

[LondonJohn]

BTW Vixen: you do realise, do you not (probably not, actually) that if the SC had accepted any ruling that this print was positively identifiable as Sollecito's, then almost without doubt it would have convicted Sollecito - and very probably also Knox - on that piece of evidence alone?

After all, there can be no possible reason why an innocent Sollecito could or would have left his bare partial print in the victim's blood on that bath mat. Sollecito said he was never in the house without footwear on at any time after the night of the murder - so it would be fundamentally incompatible with Sollecito's defence to identify that print as his.

But as the rational-thinking world knows very well - and, fortunately, as the Italian Supreme Court found exceedingly easy to figure out - that print can in no way be matched to Sollecito. Nor, for that matter, can it be excluded as Guede's. You have been told that the conditions of the creation of that bath mat print (the dilute, soaking medium, the tufted, raise, uneven pile of the bathmat, the wicking effect of the pile upon the spread of the liquid, the lack of knowledge about the nature of the footfall which created the print) makes it IMPOSSIBLE to conduct anything but the very broadest measurement analysis to that print for identification purposes. And as you have been told, the best that any honest and competent forensic technician can say is that it's compatible with an adult with a pretty normal-shaped foot, with a shoe size of around 42-45. It can therefore be used to exclude, e.g. females with a size 36 foot, or males with a size 49 foot. But beyond any doubt it cannot exclude (or positively identify) either of Sollecito, Guede or any other individual with a foot size of 42-45.

It's Guede's print.

 

[Vixen]

<snip>

I mean, when Massei invented out of whole cloth the scenario that Amanda must have carried that knife "for protection" was he neding over backwards for the kids? No. He was surmising something that no one had ever testified to, that Amanda carried large kitchen knives in Perugia for protection. Massei just invented it.
Why? Because Massei saw the crime as unpremeditated, and that Amanda had not carried the knife to the cottage with intent to inflict harm.


<snip>

Actually, Amanda herself chillingly writes in her Prison Diary she carried a kitchen knife in her bag from Germany.

Both Amanda and Raff had a known fascination with violence. Amanda wrote detailed fantasies of rape and murder. In prison, she wrote about a woman at a party with with her top torn off and lying dead, for which she won a prize, possibly as being the only literate prisoner there. Raff was obsessed with violent manga porn, leading Mignini to comment about the remarkable similarity of the crime scene with the "blood on walls and floor" of his graphical books. Raff posted a creepy pic of himself dressed up as a mad scientist wielding meat cleaver and pink potion in beaker. Amanda posted pics of her in front of the cannon in the war museum laughing manically. She wrote a caption on 'My Space: 'the Nazi within'; told a Jewish work colleague, "My people killed your people"; she took part in a sordid video with H.O.T., featuring the same butcherlike figure holding rotten apples crawling with maggots and spooky Mez-ike figures in nooses, their heads covered and their limbs tied to a chair, looking out of the window all in black with an umbrella, to turn around showing a face causing horror in the regardee. We have Amanda running down some stairs exactly in imitation of Mez' own musical video, pursued by three sinister hooded figures.

Charming, I'm sure!

 

[Vixen]

BTW Vixen: you do realise, do you not (probably not, actually) that if the SC had accepted any ruling that this print was positively identifiable as Sollecito's, then almost without doubt it would have convicted Sollecito - and very probably also Knox - on that piece of evidence alone?

After all, there can be no possible reason why an innocent Sollecito could or would have left his bare partial print in the victim's blood on that bath mat. Sollecito said he was never in the house without footwear on at any time after the night of the murder - so it would be fundamentally incompatible with Sollecito's defence to identify that print as his.

But as the rational-thinking world knows very well - and, fortunately, as the Italian Supreme Court found exceedingly easy to figure out - that print can in no way be matched to Sollecito. Nor, for that matter, can it be excluded as Guede's. You have been told that the conditions of the creation of that bath mat print (the dilute, soaking medium, the tufted, raise, uneven pile of the bathmat, the wicking effect of the pile upon the spread of the liquid, the lack of knowledge about the nature of the footfall which created the print) makes it IMPOSSIBLE to conduct anything but the very broadest measurement analysis to that print for identification purposes. And as you have been told, the best that any honest and competent forensic technician can say is that it's compatible with an adult with a pretty normal-shaped foot, with a shoe size of around 42-45. It can therefore be used to exclude, e.g. females with a size 36 foot, or males with a size 49 foot. But beyond any doubt it cannot exclude (or positively identify) either of Sollecito, Guede or any other individual with a foot size of 42-45.

It's Guede's print.

You've converted me - in a blinding road to Damascus moment - that of course it's Rudy's print. Staggered by your perspicacity and grasp of scientific concepts, I am a total believer!

Just one question: did Rudy make an Olympic record leap from Mez' room to land square on the bathmat without leaving any footprints in between? Did he sort of come back later, after all the disco dancing, to clean up all his surrounding footprints, making sure to leave a trail of his own blood-caked one-legged prints?

We are all gathered around our PC's holding our collective breath for Professor Brainiac's next astonishing scientific insights.

 

[Vixen]

If anything is amusing, it is that you and PGP bring out this watery foot print on a cotton harry rag and even though it isn't called a match by anyone claim it is. The worst analysis for Raf that anyone can make is that it looks more like his than Rudi. Most of us don't agree but no one says it is a match. The wide big toe most likely was caused by the dripping liquid.

That's rather hypocritical, for if Drs Rinaldi and Beomia had assessed on probability it was Rudy's print, we can be sure you and the PIP's* would be incessantly repeating the soundbite, "Rudy's footprints were all over the bathroom".

*Hit the midnight train to Georgia, PIP's!

 

[LondonJohn]

You've converted me - in a blinding road to Damascus moment - that of course it's Rudy's print. Staggered by your perspicacity and grasp of scientific concepts, I am a total believer!

Just one question: did Rudy make an Olympic record leap from Mez' room to land square on the bathmat without leaving any footprints in between? Did he sort of come back later, after all the disco dancing, to clean up all his surrounding footprints, making sure to leave a trail of his own blood-caked one-legged prints?

We are all gathered around our PC's holding our collective breath for Professor Brainiac's next astonishing scientific insights.

What on earth are you talking about?

Do you really, seriously believe that the only way in which that print - which was, by the way, made from a very dilute mixture of blood and water (and that's a pretty big clue, in fact) - was made was as the culmination of a series of other prints leading from Kercher's bedroom? If so, then you're as ignorant and blinkered as the prosecution and the Massei court. But fortunately the Supreme Court - and most commentators with a modicum of scientific understanding and objective analysis - does not share that stupidity and/or bias.

In fact, the most likely way in which that print was deposited (and, as promised, I come back here to the ginormous clue that the print was made in a very dilute mixture of blood and water) is that the person who made the print (Guede, almost certainly) had blood on his clothes (but not on the soles of his shoes at this point) after having murdered Kercher. The person went to the small bathroom, and used either the shower or the bidet (IMO it was the shower) to wash the copious blood off his trouser leg. In order to step into either the shower or the bidet, the person removed his shoe and placed his foot directly onto the bowl of the bidet or the floor of the shower.

With me so far, Vixen?

So we have the person washing blood off his trousers, while standing barefoot as the diluted blood/water mixture pools around his foot. The person then removes his foot from the shower or bidet - quite possibly forgetting that it had dilute blood on its sole - and stepped onto the mat. Thereby depositing the print onto the mat. And thereby explaining easily how there were no other bloody footprints between Kercher's bedroom and the small bathroom.

See - it really doesn't take any sort of "Professor Brainiac" to figure this sort of stuff out, Vixen. All it takes is a reasonable intellect, a reasonably scientific mind, an ability to analyse in a rational and objective manner, and a genuine desire to seek the truth without any preconception, bias or vengeance. I guess that if one doesn't possess many (or any) of these traits, it must seem like this is all "Brainiac" stuff. But it really isn't, you know.

 

[LondonJohn]

That's rather hypocritical, for if Drs Rinaldi and Beomia had assessed on probability it was Rudy's print, we can be sure you and the PIP's* would be incessantly repeating the soundbite, "Rudy's footprints were all over the bathroom".

*Hit the midnight train to Georgia, PIP's!

That you believe that so many pro-innocence commentators would have reacted in such a way to the same type of junk pseudoscience simply because it (falsely) pointed to Guede as a positive match says rather enormous amounts about the tainted, biassed and hopelessly unscientific and irrational way you are approaching this case.

I can tell you with 100% certainly that if Rinaldi and/or Boemia had announced that the bathmat partial print was a positive match to Guede, I would have rubbished their conclusion in exactly the same way. Fortunately, there is unimpeachable evidence against Guede in the form of his positively-matched handprint in Kercher's blood in her bedroom, his DNA (in quantities which far exceed the low-template and ultra-low-template amounts that were at issue for Knox and Sollecito) in Kercher's vagina, many of his shoe prints in Kercher's blood, and his proven appearance at a number of Perugia clubs within a few hours of the murder (especially when set against his story of having been traumatised and threatened) and subsequent flight to Germany.

 

[Bill Williams]

I mean, when Massei invented out of whole cloth the scenario that Amanda must have carried that knife "for protection" was he neding over backwards for the kids? No. He was surmising something that no one had ever testified to, that Amanda carried large kitchen knives in Perugia for protection. Massei just invented it.

Why? Because Massei saw the crime as unpremeditated, and that Amanda had not carried the knife to the cottage with intent to inflict harm.

Actually, Amanda herself chillingly writes in her Prison Diary she carried a kitchen knife in her bag from Germany.

Both Amanda and Raff had a known fascination with violence. Amanda wrote detailed fantasies of rape and murder. In prison, she wrote about a woman at a party with with her top torn off and lying dead, for which she won a prize, possibly as being the only literate prisoner there. Raff was obsessed with violent manga porn, leading Mignini to comment about the remarkable similarity of the crime scene with the "blood on walls and floor" of his graphical books. Raff posted a creepy pic of himself dressed up as a mad scientist wielding meat cleaver and pink potion in beaker. Amanda posted pics of her in front of the cannon in the war museum laughing manically. She wrote a caption on 'My Space: 'the Nazi within'; told a Jewish work colleague, "My people killed your people"; she took part in a sordid video with H.O.T., featuring the same butcherlike figure holding rotten apples crawling with maggots and spooky Mez-ike figures in nooses, their heads covered and their limbs tied to a chair, looking out of the window all in black with an umbrella, to turn around showing a face causing horror in the regardee. We have Amanda running down some stairs exactly in imitation of Mez' own musical video, pursued by three sinister hooded figures.

Charming, I'm sure!

And all this relates to Massei's invention....... how?

So much so that he made no mention of most of this stuff in his 2010 motivations report - but he left it to you, 5 1/2 years later to dig out all these factoids!?

Hoots!

 

[Grinder]

That's rather hypocritical, for if Drs Rinaldi and Beomia had assessed on probability it was Rudy's print, we can be sure you and the PIP's* would be incessantly repeating the soundbite, "Rudy's footprints were all over the bathroom".

*Hit the midnight train to Georgia, PIP's!

In that his bloody shoe prints, his bloody palm print, and his DNA were found, yes had the experts noticed that the footprint looked compatible with Rudi it would add to the case against him.

Most people think that he had blood on his pants as he stated and he went to the bathroom to wash off which included taking the bloody shoe off or perhaps both shoes and after using the bidet or shower stepped on the mat with the watered down blood. No need to fly into the bathroom.

 

[Vixen]

In that his bloody shoe prints, his bloody palm print, and his DNA were found, yes had the experts noticed that the footprint looked compatible with Rudi it would add to the case against him.

Most people think that he had blood on his pants as he stated and he went to the bathroom to wash off which included taking the bloody shoe off or perhaps both shoes and after using the bidet or shower stepped on the mat with the watered down blood. No need to fly into the bathroom.

So you reckon it was Rudy Amanda shared a shower with? After all, Mez' blood mixed 50-50 with both hers and Mez' DNA was there on the cotton buds box.

Another forensic error?

 

[Vixen]

And all this relates to Massei's invention....... how?

So much so that he made no mention of most of this stuff in his 2010 motivations report - but he left it to you, 5 1/2 years later to dig out all these factoids!?

Hoots!

Not factoids; in the case evidence files.

 

[Vixen]

That you believe that so many pro-innocence commentators would have reacted in such a way to the same type of junk pseudoscience simply because it (falsely) pointed to Guede as a positive match says rather enormous amounts about the tainted, biassed and hopelessly unscientific and irrational way you are approaching this case.

I can tell you with 100% certainly that if Rinaldi and/or Boemia had announced that the bathmat partial print was a positive match to Guede, I would have rubbished their conclusion in exactly the same way. Fortunately, there is unimpeachable evidence against Guede in the form of his positively-matched handprint in Kercher's blood in her bedroom, his DNA (in quantities which far exceed the low-template and ultra-low-template amounts that were at issue for Knox and Sollecito) in Kercher's vagina, many of his shoe prints in Kercher's blood, and his proven appearance at a number of Perugia clubs within a few hours of the murder (especially when set against his story of having been traumatised and threatened) and subsequent flight to Germany.

We already know of Rudy's guilt. It is a logical fallacy to claim, "As Rudy is guilty, therefore the kids are innocent".

You have been told by four courts, including Marasca of the Supreme Court, there was more than one perpetrator.