Veganism and the Search for a Cure Diet

[Magrat]

I have a number of chronic health conditions including PCOS (polycystic ovarian syndrome), which often causes diabetes. In my case, I am able to reduce carbs to control the symptoms and hopefully will never have full blown diabetes (my mom is insulin resistant so this is a real threat).

An acquaintance of mine is a raw food "ambassador" for a living (selling tools, literature, and supplements)and told me by following a vegan, raw foods diet I could not only prevent diabetes but also cure the PCOS and other disorders (all of which are genetic). She is also a recovering anorexic who spent several months inpatient at a treatment facility.

My question then is two-fold: Where does this belief that diet can cure all ills come from, and has a particular diet been proven (by actual scientists doing science) to be beneficial to health for most people?

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Where does this belief that diet can cure all ills come from,

It is as old as mankind.

and has a particular diet been proven (by actual scientists doing science) to be beneficial to health for most people?

No.

 

[Brian-M]

and has a particular diet been proven (by actual scientists doing science) to be beneficial to health for most people?

Without supplements, it'll probably leave with a severe vitamin B12 deficiency.

 

[casebro]

Ever heard of Nutrigenomics? Basically, matching diet to what your particular genes code for. It's like how people with Gout build up oxalic acid crystals in their joints, so stay away from Rhubarb. Or people with the enzyme problem known as PKU stay away from diet soda.

ALL health is genetic. And we are each unique genetically, what with 40,000,000 'genes', and all of their possible combinations.

So is the raw food good for you? Maybe. Probably not. But for about 15% of the population, fermented foods are bad- look up <Tyramine diet> as a sample. So perchance raw food might help them.

 

[Pup]

ALL health is genetic.

The common cold? AIDS? Cholera? I suppose genes could give a person a bit more or less resistance if exposed, but I'd think there are things where non-diet behavior overwhelms any genetic or dietary risk.

 

[WhatRoughBeast]

The common cold? AIDS? Cholera?

An estimated 1% of northern Europeans are immune to AIDS.
High resistance to cholera is found in some Indian populations.
Since the common cold is not life-threatening, there is no reason to expect much pressure towards resistance.
So yes, genetics matters.

I suppose genes could give a person a bit more or less resistance if exposed, but I'd think there are things where non-diet behavior overwhelms any genetic or dietary risk.

Smoking and lung cancer is the classic example.

That said, I believe it's pretty well established that diet matters. Not living on MacDonalds will do wonders for your colon cancer chances and your heart attack rates.

 

[Magrat]

Ever heard of Nutrigenomics? Basically, matching diet to what your particular genes code for. It's like how people with Gout build up oxalic acid crystals in their joints, so stay away from Rhubarb. Or people with the enzyme problem known as PKU stay away from diet soda.

ALL health is genetic. And we are each unique genetically, what with 40,000,000 'genes', and all of their possible combinations.

So is the raw food good for you? Maybe. Probably not. But for about 15% of the population, fermented foods are bad- look up <Tyramine diet> as a sample. So perchance raw food might help them.

I haven't. I'll look it up.

 

[dropzone]

An acquaintance of mine is a raw food "ambassador" for a living (selling tools, literature, and supplements)and told me by following a vegan, raw foods diet I could not only prevent diabetes but also cure the PCOS and other disorders (all of which are genetic).

Then she is lying to you, is stupid, or she is crazy.

She is also a recovering anorexic who spent several months inpatient at a treatment facility.

Take it as you may, but speaking as a person who spent a week in a psych ward, we are not the most reliable reporters.

...has a particular diet been proven (by actual scientists doing science) to be beneficial to health for most people?

I've heard a lot of good things about eating a balanced diet*, cutting out the crap**, and getting off your duff some**. The classic Diabetic Diet, with more carbs because you are not diabetic and may not become diabetic, is a perfectly reasonable way to eat. But cook stuff that is normally cooked because it makes the nutrients more accessible for your body.


* - Meaning not all one thing, like meat or grapefruit--there was a grapefruit diet when I was young.

** - My doctor wants me to see a bariatrician to help me lose weight. As if I don't know how to diet. No, honey, I just don't feel like dieting. I'll live longer? Do you remember the week I was confined because I was suicidal? Oh, you didn't read my chart. Maybe I'll lose some weight to make her happy because she's cute. I wouldn't have lived this long if I selected male doctors.

 

[shriram]

I have a number of chronic health conditions including PCOS (polycystic ovarian syndrome), which often causes diabetes. In my case, I am able to reduce carbs to control the symptoms and hopefully will never have full blown diabetes (my mom is insulin resistant so this is a real threat).

An acquaintance of mine is a raw food "ambassador" for a living (selling tools, literature, and supplements)and told me by following a vegan, raw foods diet I could not only prevent diabetes but also cure the PCOS and other disorders (all of which are genetic). She is also a recovering anorexic who spent several months inpatient at a treatment facility.

My question then is two-fold: Where does this belief that diet can cure all ills come from, and has a particular diet been proven (by actual scientists doing science) to be beneficial to health for most people?

I come from a family which is traditionally 100% vegetarian. Many of my relatives are so fanatically vegetarian that they switch TV channel when commercials for egg or meat products are aired. And most of them have salads at dinner time. One in every three of my relatives beyond age of 40 are diabetic.

 

[marplots]

The OP answers the question asked already. Someone who has a family propensity for insulin resistance has a reason to alter their diet. I do not have that reason. Therefore, a diet appropriate for one person would not be appropriate for another.

I can confidently tell you not to eat arsenic, because all of us share the metabolic pathway which arsenic interferes with (ATP synthesis). But as we get into more nuance, individual variation starts to ruin the analysis.

Conclusion? No universally "good" diet. The diet recommended by a friend because it worked for her is a good reason not to use it yourself. Why? Because the chances that you share her problems, and match them in a specific way, are minuscule. You are gambling that the benefits she got will cross over and help you as well - but that's exactly the same reason you would give for any diet whatsoever that someone, somewhere, touted as beneficial.

Plainly, you wouldn't start injecting yourself with insulin because someone told you it was essential for them. So why do we think diets escape this problem? They don't.

 

[bigred]

An acquaintance of mine is a raw food "ambassador" for a living

She is also a recovering anorexic

And so you're paying attention to her about health matters because......?

ALL health is genetic.

Utter BS.

So is the raw food good for you? Maybe. Probably not.

Utter (in fact laughable) BS.

I believe it's pretty well established that diet matters.

It's also pretty well established that water is wet.

Geez people, seriously?

 

[McHrozni]

Raw food diet usually (eventually?) involves 80-90% of your calorie intake consisting of carbohydrates, most of it in simple carbohydrates, aka sugar. If the fruit consumed is also made into smoothies, as again is common, those sugars are also readily available for absorption. As such it's marginally better for your body than a diet consisting of Coca-Cola and dietary supplements.
Raw food diet is probably a fairly good diet choice if you want to get type II diabetes. Stay away from it if you don't.

McHrozni

 

[Red Baron Farms]

An acquaintance of mine is a raw food "ambassador" for a living (selling tools, literature, and supplements)and told me by following a vegan, raw foods diet I could not only prevent diabetes but also cure the PCOS and other disorders (all of which are genetic). She is also a recovering anorexic who spent several months inpatient at a treatment facility.

I am guessing from the way you posted these two sentences side by side, you understand she is full of woo and actually harming herself.

My question then is two-fold: Where does this belief that diet can cure all ills come from, and has a particular diet been proven (by actual scientists doing science) to be beneficial to health for most people?

Start off with where it comes from, Natural hygiene

Orthopathy (from the Greek ortho- right- + pathos suffering,) or Natural Hygiene (NH) is a set of alternative medical beliefs and practices originating from the Nature Cure movement. Proponents claim that fasting, dieting, and other lifestyle measures are all that is necessary to prevent and treat disease.

Keeping in mind this doesn't mean "ALL" disease, but merely improves your overall health allowing you to fight off most diseases. Any you can't still require medical intervention. Where you place the "all" makes a big difference in understanding NH.

Lastly you asked about the best diet for most people. The answer historically was pescetarian (vegetarian + fish). However, considering how polluted our lakes stream rivers and oceans have become, not even sure that holds true anymore. Some fish has mercury warnings for example. The actual mortality study numbers are (lower is better in mortality studies):

"Mortality in vegetarians and non-vegetarians: detailed findings from a collaborative analysis of 5 prospective studies"

.82 pescetarian (fish eating semi vegetarian)
.84 ovo lacto vegetarians
.84 occasional (~one serving of meat a week)
1.00 Vegan
1.00 Standard balanced healthy diet

of course once you go to woo land and start talking about unhealthy diets like the fruitarian 100% raw diet your anorexic friend advocates, those numbers are not even on a chart like this for obvious reasons..........

 

[casebro]

"Mortality in vegetarians and non-vegetarians: detailed findings from a collaborative analysis of 5 prospective studies"

.82 pescetarian (fish eating semi vegetarian)
.84 ovo lacto vegetarians
.84 occasional (~one serving of meat a week)
1.00 Vegan
1.00 Standard balanced healthy diet

You know, those studies were 30-50 years old? And the only area of improvements was cardio/vascular disease. And there were no corrections for trans fats consumption (which we didn;'t know about at that time) between omnivores and others. And they admitted subjects as young as 16 yo? And it is not a PCDB study, so selection bias is involved. I'm thinking people might crave meat due to a deficiency, still not get enough of what they are deficient of, and die of that deficiency anyhow. I';m thinking enzymes, provitamins, RBF's Omegas,... At those times we didn't even know about the importance of Folate.

And gosh darn it, another batch of studies that had a big enough batch of people that died to give us a meaningful "difference in life span", and did not. That is all we want to know- how much longer can I live if I skip the cheeseburgers?

 

[fagin]

Is a steady diet of fish and chips pescetarian?

 

[Red Baron Farms]

You know, those studies were 30-50 years old? And the only area of improvements was cardio/vascular disease. And there were no corrections for trans fats consumption (which we didn;'t know about at that time) between omnivores and others. And they admitted subjects as young as 16 yo? And it is not a PCDB study, so selection bias is involved. I'm thinking people might crave meat due to a deficiency, still not get enough of what they are deficient of, and die of that deficiency anyhow. I';m thinking enzymes, provitamins, RBF's Omegas,... At those times we didn't even know about the importance of Folate.

And gosh darn it, another batch of studies that had a big enough batch of people that died to give us a meaningful "difference in life span", and did not. That is all we want to know- how much longer can I live if I skip the cheeseburgers?

A study needs to be 30-50 years old to be a long term population study. What good is a 5 year study to find out long term health effects of diet for a human species that doesn't even reach adulthood for 20 years??? Either way, those numbers will probably change as the nutritional quality of modern meat has deteriorated significantly over time, particularly beef but also many other animal husbandry products due to changes in production methods over that same 30-50 years. I said probably because although the nutritional qualities are robustly determined, the long term effects on health are not robustly linked as of yet. That will probably take another 30-50 years! Because the long term negative effects of modern production methods first must be determined robustly (happening now with a few studies already pointing out possible problems with modern beef) and then the long term comparison between grassfed and grainfed determined. By that time the damage done to the environment by grainfed beef and the rest of the industrial agricultural production models will probably make the point moot. Either we will have widespread biome collapse and an end to modern civilization, or we will change the production model to something sane and regenerative.

Is a steady diet of fish and chips pescetarian?

Not really in context to the study. Too much fried food and not enough healthy veggies, but I bet it sure tastes good and there are worse ways to go!

 

[GlennB]

Is a steady diet of fish and chips pescetarian?

It was good enough for Alf Tupper^WP and he broke the world record for the mile on a few occasions!

 

[Magrat]

Well this certainly inspired more debate than I thought it would. I may have underestimated the audience

I hadn't thought about the glycemic load of fruit smoothies and you are absolutely correct McH,that would be bad news.

Alright, so along the lines of diet is/isnt genetically based, I considered the gluten free trend. I have celiac disease. Obviously, a gluten free diet keeps me from being dead. However, for the average person there is little to no benefit from it. (Particularly considering that gluten free foods made to replicate regular food,like bread or pasta, uses rice flour which is more calorie dense than wheat flour, so if you try to eat a normal American diet with gluten free replacements you will almost certainly gain weight)

Currently, I am eating a gluten free, lactose free, low sodium, diabetic friendly diet. (All of those for specific medical conditions, not for a presumed benefit). I can see where this would not necessarily be healthy for everyone, absolutely.

 

[casebro]

Well this certainly inspired more debate than I thought it would. I may have underestimated the audience
...

Alright, so along the lines of diet is/isnt genetically based, I considered the gluten free trend. I have celiac disease. Obviously, a gluten free diet keeps me from being dead. However, for the average person there is little to no benefit from it.....

I guess you did not look up the <low tyramine/low fermented wheat> diet. I believe that many if those people who see a benefit from 'gluten free' are actually going 'low tyramine'. It worked for me to prevent <"tyramine induced hypertension crises">. No, it's not Celiacs, it is not an allergy, it is dose dependent. Blood pressure spike severity depends how how much I eat. A snack of peanut butter on cracker, not too bad. Beer and pizza with hard cheese and preserved meats, 250/170.

 

[dropzone]

...so if you try to eat a normal American diet with gluten free replacements you will almost certainly gain weight

Don't you mean "gain even more weight?" *rimshot*

Sorry, but it was just hanging there, taunting me to make a stupid joke before somebody else did.