You are wrong. Pistorius is a murderer. Your opinion changes nothing.
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Oscar Pistorius shoots girlfriend - Part 2
- Thread starter Skwinty
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You are wrong. Pistorius is a murderer. Your opinion changes nothing.
Desert Fox
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Just curious, how big was the bathroom if anybody knows?
Has there been any recreations done?
Edit:
He was given bail
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-35034292
Has there been any recreations done?
Edit:
He was given bail
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-35034292
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No one I meet agrees with me, to be fair to your point of view, and I would probably agree with you if he lobbed in a hand grenade he was a murderer. The issue here is I think he considered them as plausibly warning shots, and killing was not front and center in his mind. He was a gun nut.
There are quite a few pictures in this link, the conclusion may well be drawn that he imagined an intruder standing in a position where the 4 bullets would not strike. They were uni directional.
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=o...l2.9943j0j8&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8
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My arse they were. And the toilet was small enough that *any* shot could be expected to hit anybody within. Plus the bullets were not generic bullets.
newyorkguy
Penultimate Amazing
To make it clearer, below is a cutaway diagram of the Pistorius apartment. The step-by-step is based on Oscar Pistorius' account.
Metullus
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Where do you think an intruder could have been hiding? Look at the pictures and tell us where an intruder could have been hiding and not be in the line of fire.
Metullus
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The WC in the drawing looks somewhat larger than what is shown in the photos I linked to above. Looking at the photos I really have a hard time seeing how he could have missed hitting someone who was in the WC.
Okay, if he was firing "warning" shots, wouldn't he have preceded them with a verbal warning, along the lines of "Who's there? I have a gun!" Might he also have done something like take cover, and order the intruder to come out slowly? Might he also have aimed his "warning" shots toward the ceiling? But he himself never made such claims. His own story is "Intruder, noise, shoot." Does that make much sense?
I also must confess my worldly inexperience in that I have never slept in a bed so large that I wouldn't notice whether or not someone was in it with me, especially if I was worried about her safety. That doesn't make much sense either. My first thought would be to get her out of danger, starting with waking her up ("Honey, there's somebody in the bathroom. Call for help while I keep him trapped."). By now Pistorius probably believes his own story. But it's not supported by logic or reason.
LondonJohn
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Yep - that cutaway diagram provided by newyorkguy is inaccurate and misrepresentative in almost every way - quite impressively so, really!
Here is the actual layout of the bathroom and bedroom area:
That's from the floor plan presented in the court.
You can see that in fact, the toilet room is a good deal smaller than in nyg's cutaway. In addition, the toilet itself is at right angles to the door (rather than facing the door as per nyg's cutaway), and the door is on the right of the room as seen from outside the door (nyg's cutaway has the door on the left hand side).
On top of all that, the nyg cutaway also gets completely wrong the relationship between the bedroom and the various sub-rooms of the bathroom, the position and orientation of the bed, and the position and orientation of the balcony and balcony doors. In fact, just about the ONLY thing the nyg cutaway has managed to place accurately is the corner bath*!
*ETA: nope, that's in the wrong position too (though in the right position relative to the toilet room and shower cubicle)
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LondonJohn
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And, by the way, the proper floor plans, together with photos of the toilet room, show that if someone was standing in that room behind the closed door, then there really is only a matter of a few square feet in which that person could be standing (i.e. the small area of floor in front of the toilet). And that small area is directly behind the door to that toilet room, from the perspective of someone standing outside the toilet room.
Therefore, anyone who knew the layout of that room (i.e. Pistorius) would also know that unless the person behind the door was actually sitting on the toilet (or standing on the toilet?), the person would have to be situated right behind the door.
It's my belief that Steenkamp ran away from Pistorius with her phone in hand, and locked herself in the toilet room. I think Pistorius pursued her (he would have been slower, since he was on his stumps, so by the time he arrived outside the door, she would already have locked herself in). I think there was probably a short continuation of the argument (which had started and escalated in the bedroom), at which point Steenkamp informed Pistorius that she was going to phone for help - either from family/friend or from the police. I think that this is what enraged Pistorius to fire his gun. And I think that Pistorius was 100% aware that Steenkamp must have been standing directly behind the door (from his perspective). I think he aimed and shot deliberately to hit Steenkamp.
Therefore, anyone who knew the layout of that room (i.e. Pistorius) would also know that unless the person behind the door was actually sitting on the toilet (or standing on the toilet?), the person would have to be situated right behind the door.
It's my belief that Steenkamp ran away from Pistorius with her phone in hand, and locked herself in the toilet room. I think Pistorius pursued her (he would have been slower, since he was on his stumps, so by the time he arrived outside the door, she would already have locked herself in). I think there was probably a short continuation of the argument (which had started and escalated in the bedroom), at which point Steenkamp informed Pistorius that she was going to phone for help - either from family/friend or from the police. I think that this is what enraged Pistorius to fire his gun. And I think that Pistorius was 100% aware that Steenkamp must have been standing directly behind the door (from his perspective). I think he aimed and shot deliberately to hit Steenkamp.
This theory excludes an account that realistically explains the empty bladder, if we believe the autopsy.
newyorkguy
Penultimate Amazing
In a court of law the fact of Steenkamp's "empty bladder" would only prove she had apparently urinated very soon before she was shot. How soon and the circumstances are not known. Although I guess I agree that during a heated confrontation she'd probably be unlikely to urinate there are many other explanations that seem just as plausible. Example: Following an angry encounter Steenkamp retreats to the bathroom and locks herself in. Pistorius follows her to the door and demands she exit the bathroom. She refuses. He warns her, "I can't take this anymore! Are you coming out or not?" She refuses. He completely loses it and goes to get his handgun. After she hears him walk away she mistakenly concludes the fight is over and she...
But moments later she hears him re-approaching.
Also, South Africa's high crime rate has been cited to support the idea Pistorius had good reason to be concerned about a home invasion. But South Africa's high rate of domestic abuse supports the idea Steenkamp had good reason to fear Oscar Pistorius.
But moments later she hears him re-approaching.
Also, South Africa's high crime rate has been cited to support the idea Pistorius had good reason to be concerned about a home invasion. But South Africa's high rate of domestic abuse supports the idea Steenkamp had good reason to fear Oscar Pistorius.
I completely agree with this scenario.
katy_did
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There's also no evidence to positively support it, aside from incredulity that he couldn't not have noticed Reeva in bed, which is why it's such a dead end when it comes to discussion!
I could say that Pistorius always had a plan to kill Reeva that night, so he got up after she fell asleep, hid in the shower cubicle with his gun, and when she got up to go to the toilet, he shot her through the door. At least that explains her empty bladder, and why security didn't notice any activity in the house when they went past at 2 a.m. - Reeva was asleep, Pistorius was of course hiding in the shower cubicle in the dark.
Possible, but more likely is the scenario that they had an argument, Reeva went to the toilet and was killed in a violent rage. The problem with your scenario is that Reeva somehow didn't notice Oscar's absence from the bed when she went to the toilet.
Of course this is the heart of the matter, yet all wrongful crime narratives are confounded by outlying data points. In this case the empty bladder gets me 90% to accepting that Oscar is telling the whole truth. The blackout curtains get me to 99%. Everything else is explained by a gun nut embracing his big moment. I reckon the adrenaline surge as the first shot went accounts for the next three. Remember it was bang......bang bang bang. In one of the great confusions in crime history this was repeated with the cricket bat. Look forward to a post modern interpretation.
katy_did
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Why does it matter whether Reeva noticed Oscar's absence from the bed or not?
Another possibility is that Reeva threw Oscar's legs out the bathroom window and this is what sparked his murderous rage, and neatly explains why he was on his stumps when he shot her. He must have gone outside to retrieve them post-shooting but prior to calling for help.
newyorkguy
Penultimate Amazing
The only facts that are truly known are that Pistorius fired four shots into the bathroom or water closet and killed Reeva Steenkamp. To say that Steenkamp urinating shortly before being shot to death rules out the possibility that Pistorius is guilty of willful murder seems to be a stretch. Cited are the many wrongful convictions we all know about or at least suspect. But the reverse is true as well; sometimes the person turns out to be rightfully convicted. People do lie under oath.
I always think of the Dan White case in the U.S. White killed two political rivals in San Francisco's City Hall in an incident many years ago. White maintained it wasn't premeditated that he had just snapped. Many people believed him and argued passionately in his defense. Others insisted White was lying, that he had planned the whole thing. A jury accepted his story and he was convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to seven years in prison. After he served his sentence -- and was protected from being tried again -- White admitted the killings had been completely premeditated.
I always think of the Dan White case in the U.S. White killed two political rivals in San Francisco's City Hall in an incident many years ago. White maintained it wasn't premeditated that he had just snapped. Many people believed him and argued passionately in his defense. Others insisted White was lying, that he had planned the whole thing. A jury accepted his story and he was convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to seven years in prison. After he served his sentence -- and was protected from being tried again -- White admitted the killings had been completely premeditated.