A plan to defeat ISIS

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China at least has not done any intervening in the middle-east, yet they took a national prisoner, put him up for sale, and then executed him when the ranom wasn't paid.

Are Chinese nationals not allowed in the middle-east?

As far as projecting their power abroad, I doubt they have any large scale plans for offensives like that.

But they'll happily kill kafir nationals when they get the chance.
 
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I agree. I mean, if I lived in Lebanon or Syria or Iraq then I would want to fight ISIS.

:confused:

Lebanon and Hezbollah joined the fight on Syria's behalf, which you agreed you would do.

Beirut gets suicide bombers in revenge.

But anyways:

BEIRUT // Hizbollah has declared war on ISIL after the extremists launched an offensive on its positions inside Lebanon this week.

http://www.thenational.ae/world/middle-east/hizbollah-declares-war-on-isil
 
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I got a solution: we leave them alone. And they leave us alone.
Could you please tell that to the Yazidis in Iraq.

I'm sure that they would be enthralled to hear such wisdom seeing as they never attacked ISIL but they themselves were not only over-run, but subjected to the most horrific violations. I'm sure the families of the children who died from exposure on Mt Sinjar would happily listen.

Perhaps you'd like to tell this to Yazidis women who have been kidnapped by ISIL and sold in slave markets. Perhaps you'd like to tell the girls who've been sold and gang raped that if only they had left ISIL alone then ISIL would have left them alone.

You could always get to Sinjar, which has just been liberated by YPG and the Peshmerga and perhaps preach to the rotting bodies found in mass graves who turned out to be old women that ISIL had no "use" for.

Honestly, I've read some absolute drivel on this forum regarding ISIL and Syria (it's full of misinformed opinion), but this post is without doubt the most naive.

Try educating yourself about ISIL.
 
Could you please tell that to the Yazidis in Iraq.

I'm sure that they would be enthralled to hear such wisdom seeing as they never attacked ISIL but they themselves were not only over-run, but subjected to the most horrific violations. I'm sure the families of the children who died from exposure on Mt Sinjar would happily listen.

Perhaps you'd like to tell this to Yazidis women who have been kidnapped by ISIL and sold in slave markets. Perhaps you'd like to tell the girls who've been sold and gang raped that if only they had left ISIL alone then ISIL would have left them alone.

You could always get to Sinjar, which has just been liberated by YPG and the Peshmerga and perhaps preach to the rotting bodies found in mass graves who turned out to be old women that ISIL had no "use" for.

Honestly, I've read some absolute drivel on this forum regarding ISIL and Syria (it's full of misinformed opinion), but this post is without doubt the most naive.

Try educating yourself about ISIL.

Yeah...and the next thing ya' know ISIS will be forming an army in Kansas and take over Topeka! Right...I just can't indulge in those Fairy Stories like you do.

What next, someone going to blame ISIS for Herpes, Global Warming and the Kennedy Assasination?
 
I got a solution: we leave them alone. And they leave us alone.

This may come as a total surprise and shock but people and organizations are capable of being murderous terrorists regardless of how they are treated by any outside entity. "And they leave us alone." is not going to happen, no matter what we choose to do or not to do.
 
Why is it so neccessary for some people to defeat ISIS? If you leave these people alone, then they will probably leave you alone. Otherwise, for countries who persist in attacking ISIS when they've "got no dog in the fight", then let it be said that I have little sympathy for them when the Blowback hits: they were playing with fire and they should have known better.

That's great for isolationists, but that's awful if you're a Yezidi woman being held as a sex slave, being sold (and raped) back and forth among ISIS fighters.

You have anything to say to them?
 
Yeah...and the next thing ya' know ISIS will be forming an army in Kansas and take over Topeka! Right...I just can't indulge in those Fairy Stories like you do.

What next, someone going to blame ISIS for Herpes, Global Warming and the Kennedy Assasination?
Ludicrous strawmanning. You have no reply to the fact that a populous that had no fight with ISIL were brutally subjugated showing that your mantra of "if we leave them alone, they'll leave us alone" is false. If you had any understanding of ISIL and their objectives then you wouldn't have written such a flippant reply.

If I posted what I thought of you and your reply I'd be violating the membership agreement.

You may look at things from an isolationist and safe point of view, separated from the situation by vast oceans, but I'll remind you that the US (along with my country) have operated foreign policies in the region that have inadvertently aided the rise of ISIL.

US air support in Syria and Iraq prevented ISIL over-running the Kurds in northern Syria and helped the Iraqi government stem their advance. You are already involved. The US has been crucial in pushing ISIL back and the YPG now has a solid baseline from which to defend their areas in Syria. Ditto other forces in Iraq.

The US helped break it, the US has a responsibility to help stabilise the situation, which is ultimately in the interests of the US too.
 
This may come as a total surprise and shock but people and organizations are capable of being murderous terrorists regardless of how they are treated by any outside entity. "And they leave us alone." is not going to happen, no matter what we choose to do or not to do.

I think you've been watching too much Network News where they feature the crazed Killer who explodes for supposedly no reason. They like you to believe such things happen regularly because it scares/confuses you and keeps you coming back for more - it undercuts your confidence and makes you doubt your ability to make judgements. It makes you passive and helpless.

Keep watching and believing if you feel so compelled - just don't foist your fears on me.
 
I think you've been watching too much Network News where they feature the crazed Killer who explodes for supposedly no reason. They like you to believe such things happen regularly because it scares/confuses you and keeps you coming back for more - it undercuts your confidence and makes you doubt your ability to make judgements. It makes you passive and helpless.

Keep watching and believing if you feel so compelled - just don't foist your fears on me.

Actually, it pays to watch the unedited footage of what ISIS is actually doing in Syria and Iraq, and the footage from the Syrians and Iraqis and Kurds who are resisting them.
 
The US helped break it, the US has a responsibility to help stabilise the situation, which is ultimately in the interests of the US too.

Well, if the US broke it, then maybe the US should realize that they don't know what the hell they are doing and leave it alone.

The US "Broke it" over 10 years ago and the more they try to "Fix It", the worse it gets. As a result, it has become apparrent that the US military effort is run by a bunch of morons who couldn't be trusted to fix a clock - much less fix something as complicated as a society.
 
I think you've been watching too much Network News where they feature the crazed Killer who explodes for supposedly no reason. They like you to believe such things happen regularly because it scares/confuses you and keeps you coming back for more - it undercuts your confidence and makes you doubt your ability to make judgements. It makes you passive and helpless.

Keep watching and believing if you feel so compelled - just don't foist your fears on me.

They have reasons, they are not exactly shy about talking about them, and anyone who resists them in any fashion earns what they get clearly. If only those rape slaves had properly looked for ISIS members to marry first they would never have been rape slaves. Totally their fault for fighting them by not marrying them.
 
Well, if the US broke it, then maybe the US should realize that they don't know what the hell they are doing and leave it alone.

The US "Broke it" over 10 years ago and the more they try to "Fix It", the worse it gets. As a result, it has become apparrent that the US military effort is run by a bunch of morons who couldn't be trusted to fix a clock - much less fix something as complicated as a society.
Not really. Without US support then ISIL would have captured far more territory and subjected those populations to their brutal rule.

If ISIL had fully captured Kobani then thy would have gained a significant town on the border with Turkey and consolidated their grip on Tal Abyad. With no threat to their flank ISIL would then have been free to strike much harder at Ras al-Ayn as well as surrounding the important town of Hasakah and push toward Qamishli thus fully controlling the border with Turkey along with all the oil-fields within. It's taken a year to force ISIL back from this objective in Syria.

Such an advance would have had serious consequences for not only Iraq, but also Turkey which is a member of NATO as well as other nations in the region.

You'll note that I did not say "fix it", because military action alone cannot do so. I used the word stabilise for a specific reason, because it allows other diplomatic processes to enter into the equation. That will be a matter for the populations in the region.

Leaving it alone is not an option for the US because to do so would allow ISIL to spread and therefore threaten US allies in the region, specifically the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (KSA).

ISIL have already carried out a number of attacks primarily through suicide bombing in KSA in order to try to inflame sectarian tensions between Shi'ites and Sunnis so as to foster their cause. I'd like to see the House of Saud dethroned and worse, but a spill over of the "Arab Spring" and the chaos it has brought about into a major oil producing nation would require international intervention anyway. There's only one nation that could provide the heavy lifting for such a scenario and that is the world's remaining superpower.

There is no simply solution and not one that can be expressed in an 8 second sound-bite.

Pick a "solution" and then follow it to its logical conclusion. None are deemed acceptable to politicians in the west. This is why it's FUBAR.
 
Could you please tell that to the Yazidis in Iraq.

I'm sure that they would be enthralled to hear such wisdom seeing as they never attacked ISIL but they themselves were not only over-run, but subjected to the most horrific violations. I'm sure the families of the children who died from exposure on Mt Sinjar would happily listen.

Perhaps you'd like to tell this to Yazidis women who have been kidnapped by ISIL and sold in slave markets. Perhaps you'd like to tell the girls who've been sold and gang raped that if only they had left ISIL alone then ISIL would have left them alone.

You could always get to Sinjar, which has just been liberated by YPG and the Peshmerga and perhaps preach to the rotting bodies found in mass graves who turned out to be old women that ISIL had no "use" for.

Honestly, I've read some absolute drivel on this forum regarding ISIL and Syria (it's full of misinformed opinion), but this post is without doubt the most naive.

Try educating yourself about ISIL.
Is that why we're going to bomb them? Because of the Yezidis? Is that what we do in such cases, when peoples are subjected to genocide? Recall Blair and his WMD reason for going to war. Saddam had massacred various populations without incurring a Western invasion, and we were told it was on account of Saddam's WMD that we were invading. Explicitly we were told it was not to effect regime change, even though his regime was cruel and violent in the highest degree.

There are various places where local indigenes are being wiped out. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples Are you suggesting that we go to war with the states, or bomb the areas occupied by the armed groups involved? Is that what you're saying? If it is, very good. I might agree. See what support you get from Cameron. If not, your argument falls. It reveals itself as special pleading to justify an attack conducted for other reasons, such as was resorted to by Blair after the failure to find any WMD.

ETA I've just seen this. We can expect more of the same. You accuse opponents of the bombing of being indifferent to the fate of the Yezidis. Cameron is smart enough not to use that argument; I think for the reasons I give above. So he's using the same tactic, but a different atrocity. Not the Yezidis. This is from the Guardian website.

Cameron accuses Corbyn of being 'terrorist sympathiser'
Prime minister urges Tory MPs not to vote with Labour leader and ‘a bunch of terrorist sympathisers’ against Syria airstrikes.​

So, doesn't care about the Yezidis - sympathises with the Paris murderers - and there's more to come, folks. When things get serious the propaganda machines start churning out their usual stuff.

ETA 2 Here's more terrorist sympathisers and rape enablers.

David Cameron’s plans to launch airstrikes in Syria are already facing a rebellion of around 20% of his party membership, but now the powerful Foreign Affairs Select Committee has voted against the proposed airstrikes.

The Foreign Affairs Select Committee is chaired by Conservative MP Crispin Blunt, and has a majority of Conservative members – yet this evening, the powerful committee has defied the government and expressed their opposition to the planned strikes. A Conservative member of the committee, John Baron MP, has written a piece for The Guardian outlining the reasons for the no vote.​
 
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A lack of a pope or central authority doesn't preclude reformation. Basically scholars "figured out" everything the Quran and Hadith was about, and discouraged widespread interpretation through the practice of taqlid, or the "closing of the gate of ijtihad". The difference between taqlid and ijtihad is that one means to reason independently, and one means to follow.

The problem is that this was in the 10th century, and there's been a whole lot of goings on in the world since then.

There are groups, such as the Sisters in Islam, and scholars like Ustaz Mahmoud Mohammed Taha, who believe there are valid, modern interpretations of the Quran (the revelations from Mecca specifically) which don't stand in opposition to secularism or democracy at all, and that the relevations from Medina should only be viewed and interpreted in a historical context. However, Sisters in Islam is a minority in a minority, and Taha was executed for apostasy, but the idea is there, and at the very least should be nurtured in opposition to hardline, archaic groups like ISIS.

However, even if the likes of Taha took root in the Muslim wolrd and became the norm, there would be nothing preventing future abrogations which allowed a reverting back to more literal interpretations.


I was pointing out to the guy that there is no door to pin your principles on. Many "OMG Scharia is coming to Kansas" type of people think that you can find Sharia on page xyz of the Quran were is written "Thou shalt not steal if you don't want my minions to chop your hand off." ;)

On that we agree, but I don't even know which 10th century "scholary" decision you're refering to and who considers them as authoritative, and would disagree that only a minority of a minority have an understanding of Islam that is compatible with secular democracy. After all, the largest Muslim country in the world Indonesia is a secular democracy, and you can look at other places outside the Middle East, Bosnia just as one example where the Muslim women don't even care to wear a headscarf.

Anyway, back to topic, your view that the Wahhabi/Salafi slime ISIS crawled out of is "reformist" already is interesting and likely true in some limited senses.
 
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Is that why we're going to bomb them? Because of the Yezidis?

No, not just because of the Yazidis. You are missing the point in reference to the Yazidis.

The Yazidi's left ISIS alone, and in exchange were brutally massacred and driven into the mountains by ISIS.

The Yazidi's should be viewed as part of a larger picture.
 
Not much. The advance of Empire of the Rising Sun was headed in your direction. It was stopped and turned back at Guadalcanal, and eventually driven off it's stepping stone at Truk.

NZ would have been a juicy morsel.

I would say Coral Sea rather then Guadalcanal, and would give the Aussies some credit for stopping the Japanese in the Kokoda Trail campaign.but basic point taken.
And the Kiwis were glad as hell when US troops begun arriving in the Summer of 1942......
 
Is that why we're going to bomb them? Because of the Yezidis? Is that what we do in such cases, when peoples are subjected to genocide?
No. You are missing the context of the exchange between me and Jules Galen.

He stated:

I got a solution: we leave them alone. And they leave us alone.
And I gave reference to peoples who have not attacked ISIL, but whom have been attacked themselves, thus showing his statement to be false.

You've got the wrong end of the stick.

As an addition: The area that the Yazidis occupied in Iraq was in Sinjar. Sinjar has recently been liberated from ISIL with the US providing air support. There are plenty of references to such action by the US. e.g:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/12/world/middleeast/isis-iraq-syria.html
 
If one really wants a simple plan to defeat ISIS, then the best way to proceed would be to make George Bush, Jr. and Dick Cheney their President and Vice-President.

After all, it only took a few years for these two stupid, idiotic, liars to nearly the most powerful country in the world, therefore they should be able to destroy ISIS from within in no time at all.
 

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