• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

International Men's Day is apparently controversial

Because all men are on more than women?

You have just shown another example of ignorance of men's issues

On more than women? :confused:

Both of you are being pedantically ludicrous.

Excuse me for not adding the PC caveat that I was only talking about men who were paid more than women in the same circumstances. :rolleyes:
 
On more than women? :confused:

Both of you are being pedantically ludicrous.

Excuse me for not adding the PC caveat that I was only talking about men who were paid more than women in the same circumstances. :rolleyes:

It depends on how you compare the jobs

PR people people are paid massive and that industry has a feminine bias
 
I'm not following you, specifically how your post relates to mine that you quoted.

I'm suggesting that the factors you mention that were accounted for - such as experience - and that generate the higher income for men, are considered by some to be, themselves, subject to bias. Under that rubric, accounting for such things as experience to explain wage disparity is simply shifting the objection to the structure of how we determine which factors should have input into the equation. There is just as much choice in deciding that time-in-grade should justify a higher wage as any other attribute. If we artificially select attributes which women do not share in equal proportion with men, then we get the same result we might get with flagrant discrimination.

There's a parallel argument being made against including an arrest record as a bar to employment. Blacks are arrested more often (per capita) than whites. Using what appears to be a racially-neutral attribute (arrest record) then has the effect of limiting opportunities for blacks. So too might other, gender-neutral qualifications adversely impact wage rates for women.

This framing makes the original "wage gap" relevant again, because saying, "if we factor in these things reduces the wage gap" is a tautology - in effect, saying, "If we remove these factors which unfairly reduce wages for women, wages are not reduced as much for women." A tautology instead of an explanation.
 
Last edited:
I'm all for a men's equality day. Rather than protesting I'd be pointing out that equality for men means they should all take a pay cut, among other things. Those 200 letter signatories missed a great moment to call attention to a problem.

But that's exactly what they did: they brought it back to being about women. This once again is just another example of how feminists pay lip service to being about equality but they CAN'T talk about anything but women. It always has to be turned around. They need to be called out for their hypocrisy until they start admitting more openly that they're only interested in women's issues instead of spouting the same claim that "feminism = equality for everyone"
 
I'm suggesting that the factors you mention that were accounted for - such as experience - and that generate the higher income for men, are considered by some to be, themselves, subject to bias. Under that rubric, accounting for such things as experience to explain wage disparity is simply shifting the objection to the structure of how we determine which factors should have input into the equation. There is just as much choice in deciding that time-in-grade should justify a higher wage as any other attribute. If we artificially select attributes which women do not share in equal proportion with men, then we get the same result we might get with flagrant discrimination.

There's a parallel argument being made against including an arrest record as a bar to employment. Blacks are arrested more often (per capita) than whites. Using what appears to be a racially-neutral attribute (arrest record) then has the effect of limiting opportunities for blacks. So too might other, gender-neutral qualifications adversely impact wage rates for women.

This framing makes the original "wage gap" relevant again, because saying, "if we factor in these things reduces the wage gap" is a tautology - in effect, saying, "If we remove these factors which unfairly reduce wages for women, wages are not reduced as much for women." A tautology instead of an explanation.

And, in the case presented in this thread of female teachers earning more because they have seniority, is experience still an attribute which women fare worse than men?
 
:confused:

They have seniority and you make less, what's the problem?

If you make the same as women with the same seniority/experience then obviously it wouldn't apply to you. :rolleyes:

Interesting that women earning more than him is OK, but him earning more than a woman becomes a problem. It's almost like there is a double standard at play.
 
It depends on how you compare the jobs

PR people people are paid massive and that industry has a feminine bias
The point people, the point! Good grief!

If you think equality for men day is a bad thing, don't protest the day. Use it to point out that equality for men means they need to come down a notch.
 
But that's exactly what they did: they brought it back to being about women. This once again is just another example of how feminists pay lip service to being about equality but they CAN'T talk about anything but women. It always has to be turned around. They need to be called out for their hypocrisy until they start admitting more openly that they're only interested in women's issues instead of spouting the same claim that "feminism = equality for everyone"
Are men oppressed? What, they want more women to spring for dinner?

Was it a day for fathers' not getting custody of their kids? Fine. What else?
 
Interesting that women earning more than him is OK, but him earning more than a woman becomes a problem. It's almost like there is a double standard at play.
Did you miss the part about the women earning more because they had seniority? Of course that's all right.

Don't confuse me with all the feminists you have issues with. I spent half my career in the underpaid under-recognized profession of nursing. I earned my right to complain about women being underpaid compared to men.
 
Are men oppressed? What, they want more women to spring for dinner?

Was it a day for fathers' not getting custody of their kids? Fine. What else?

I don't like to use the word "oppressed" in first-world scenarios. I don't think it applies to men or women because it's a very harsh word. Disadvantaged? Sure. Both men and women are disadvantaged in different ways.

Examples? If you read the thread you would have seen many.
 
I don't like to use the word "oppressed" in first-world scenarios. I don't think it applies to men or women because it's a very harsh word. Disadvantaged? Sure. Both men and women are disadvantaged in different ways.

Examples? If you read the thread you would have seen many.
Why don't you list them for me. Given I'm outnumbered in this thread and in the forum, I don't always pay attention to all you whiney men. ;)

I agree with the child custody issue.
 
These days they do try to make it apples-to-apples by comparing people with the same level of experience/education in the same job, from what I can tell.

One other issue is maternity leave. Ive seen the effects of that, from both sides. Businesses are less inclined to invest in someone who may disappear at any moment, and may decide not to come back at all.
 
This is why we can't have nice things. If Marcia gets attention, Jan whines about it. If Jan gets attention, Cindy whines about it. If Cindy gets attention, Alice whines about it. If Alice ever got attention she'd be less crazy, but nobody's ever going to pay attention to Alice until she makes a statement from the witness box during her trial for axing a whole family to death. And I for one don't blame her one little bit!
 
Did you miss the part about the women earning more because they had seniority? Of course that's all right.

Don't confuse me with all the feminists you have issues with. I spent half my career in the underpaid under-recognized profession of nursing. I earned my right to complain about women being underpaid compared to men.

Did you miss the part where I said I thought wage disparities disappeared when seniority and hours worked were accounted for?
 
Id be extremely interested in examples where men were doing the same role/hours at the same seniority, and were getting paid significantly more than women.

I did hear that there's an issue when salaries are fully deregulated (in private businesses), as men seem to negotiate harder than women. Im not sure whether that leads to a significant (5%) gap though.
 
Why don't you list them for me. Given I'm outnumbered in this thread and in the forum, I don't always pay attention to all you whiney men. ;)

I agree with the child custody issue.
Here's some random things from memory. Some of these are mentioned earlier in the thread

-suicide rates
-prison sentences (for the same crimes) compared to women
-job satisfaction
-minority position in a variety of jobs (such as nursing) - personally I don't see this as a problem but it's worth bringing up whenever someone says there "aren't enough women in position X" to see if they agree
-the whole circumcision thing
-off the top of my head I bet there are almost zero non-athletic scholarships geared toward solely men for a field in which they are a minority (again I don't see this as a problem on it's own but it's a double standard)
 
One other issue is maternity leave. Ive seen the effects of that, from both sides. Businesses are less inclined to invest in someone who may disappear at any moment, and may decide not to come back at all.

Think this is a massive part of it. The have to train someone to fill in and then retrain the original when they get back if there are changes.

And then they will probably drop another sprog in a year and it happens all again
 
And, in the case presented in this thread of female teachers earning more because they have seniority, is experience still an attribute which women fare worse than men?

In that case, the situation is reversed.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom