International Men's Day is apparently controversial

[Corsair 115]

A video on the thread's topic that gives a point of view not frequently stated.

International Men's Day 2015 - The Fiamengo File Episode 15.

 

[cullennz]

I was at the shop this morning and a bloke ignored me to serve two hot twenty somethings.

No such thing as male sexism eh

I felt cheapened

 

[devnull]

Equal pay.

I dunno, Im not yet convinced about this one.

While it's true that, on average, men are paid more than women, I think there is evidence that this is due to women generally choosing careers that pay less (teachers, nurses etc) instead of better paying careers (doctors, IT, engineering etc)

I think the issue is more why girls arent choosing technical careers, rather than "men are paid more than women".

I did a computing science degree, we had 2 girls in first year, who had disappeared by second year, for example.

 

[Darat]

What suicide prevention messages would you give to men but not to women?

If there turns out to be statistically significant differences between blacks, latinos, and non-hispanic whites, would you advocate separating those groups as well?

...snip....

It's a very well known practice so I'd say the question is answered with a "yes". Most social awareness campaigns will focus on the segment of the population that they need to reach and will tailor their message to best reach that segment. Are you not aware of this?

 

[Arisia]

I dunno, Im not yet convinced about this one.

While it's true that, on average, men are paid more than women, I think there is evidence that this is due to women generally choosing careers that pay less (teachers, nurses etc) instead of better paying careers (doctors, IT, engineering etc)

I think the issue is more why girls arent choosing technical careers, rather than "men are paid more than women".

I did a computing science degree, we had 2 girls in first year, who had disappeared by second year, for example.

These days they do try to make it apples-to-apples by comparing people with the same level of experience/education in the same job, from what I can tell.

 

[wareyin]

These days they do try to make it apples-to-apples by comparing people with the same level of experience/education in the same job, from what I can tell.

I thought that when those factors were accounted for, the gap disappeared.

 

[pharphis]

These days they do try to make it apples-to-apples by comparing people with the same level of experience/education in the same job, from what I can tell.

Yes and the gap is ~5% iirc. Of course, it's an argument from ignorance to assume that the remaining disparity is strictly due to sexism and not some less-quantifiable factors. Same goes for all disparities

 

[Mumbles]

So...same ****, different group, then?

 

[Meadmaker]

deleted. (Misunderstood the post I was replying to.)

 

[Arisia]

Yes and the gap is ~5% iirc. Of course, it's an argument from ignorance to assume that the remaining disparity is strictly due to sexism and not some less-quantifiable factors. Same goes for all disparities

I think a portion of it has been found to have something to do with most women not self-advocating for raises like men are more likely to do. I think that difference will fade as employers seem to be switching to standardized employee evaluation/raise determination systems.

 

[marplots]

I thought that when those factors were accounted for, the gap disappeared.

Yes and the gap is ~5% iirc. Of course, it's an argument from ignorance to assume that the remaining disparity is strictly due to sexism and not some less-quantifiable factors. Same goes for all disparities

But isn't the counter-argument that the deficiencies are structural, as well as specific? In other words, the system itself, the one generating the evaluation metrics, is biased.

For example, I'd be hard dealt if managerial resumes got a significant boost when they mentioned, "Had a baby" and took that as relevant, even exemplary, experience.

 

[pharphis]

So...same ****, different group, then?

What are you referring to?

 

[pharphis]

Figured that out, eh? The raging clue would be the "but" in that sentence. The point is that "Dear Muslima" had a point, a very valid point. The pedants and nitpickers changed the focus, though, to avoid the discussion.




I'm not sure where you're going with this argument. The fact is,... we are barely concerned with any genocides, anyway. We only get involved when one makes it up the charts, so to speak. I post in a lot of discussions on the Rohingya. Those posts are not on these forums. I cannot recall ever seeing anyone even mention the issue, unless some of them wind up in Australian territorial waters and it becomes an Aussie political issue and not a human rights problem.

(ETA sorry for the crossover from "we, general, e.g. "the west" " to "we, specific, e.g. "the forum" ". )

Agreed. The point (imo) was to point out that being politely asked for sex (if you take that interpretation) in an elevator at a conference is barely even a first world problem, let alone being a problem. Certainly nothing to scream "oppression!" about.

I only mean to point out the hypocrisy of people who apparently care about equality, but will shout it down when it comes to men's issues. It's not like these people are only talking about the genocides or sex trafficking the bulk of the time. They're mostly talking about how women make less money than men in the developed world and are judged on their looks or have certain expectations placed on them by society. . . and I can get behind some of these things to some extent. Of course, men have their own expectations through culture and are judged by different criteria, and their own issues and loads of disparities just like women do... so why is one side silencing the conversation about the other sex? I only see this coming from one side (which is a red flag to me, as well as hypocritical).

Sorry if that's wordy

 

[Fudbucker]

We should have a day to remember men's long and ongoing struggle for suffrage and franchise.

Or maybe a day to remember all the soldiers (99.9% men) who died in service to their country?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

All 'Days' are bollocks.

Unless you own stock in Hallmark Cards.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm all for a men's equality day. Rather than protesting I'd be pointing out that equality for men means they should all take a pay cut, among other things. Those 200 letter signatories missed a great moment to call attention to a problem.

 

[wareyin]

But isn't the counter-argument that the deficiencies are structural, as well as specific? In other words, the system itself, the one generating the evaluation metrics, is biased.

For example, I'd be hard dealt if managerial resumes got a significant boost when they mentioned, "Had a baby" and took that as relevant, even exemplary, experience.

I'm not following you, specifically how your post relates to mine that you quoted.

 

[Fudbucker]

I'm all for a men's equality day. Rather than protesting I'd be pointing out that equality for men means they should all take a pay cut, among other things. Those 200 letter signatories missed a great moment to call attention to a problem.

I'm a teacher. I make less than most of my female co-workers (who have more seniority than me).

Should I take a pay-cut?

 

[cullennz]

I'm all for a men's equality day. Rather than protesting I'd be pointing out that equality for men means they should all take a pay cut, among other things. Those 200 letter signatories missed a great moment to call attention to a problem.

Because all men are on more than women?

You have just shown another example of ignorance of men's issues

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm a teacher. I make less than most of my female co-workers (who have more seniority than me).

Should I take a pay-cut?

They have seniority and you make less, what's the problem?

If you make the same as women with the same seniority/experience then obviously it wouldn't apply to you.