Axxman300
Philosopher
Oh, oh! I have an unevidenced ghost story, Can get a free bear?
You just have to tell it well. Everybody loves a good ghost story.
Oh, oh! I have an unevidenced ghost story, Can get a free bear?
My understanding is that it's essentially all down to the fact that, whilst false positives and false negatives are both mistakes, false positives are less potentially dangerous mistakes than false negatives. Mistaking a shadow for a bear may cause you to spend the night in the open rather than in a warm dry cave, but mistaking a bear for a shadow gets you eaten. We're all descended from those who survived long enough to produce offspring, ie those whose mistakes were more likely to be false positives than false negatives. So our brains have evolved cognitive biases which make them more likely to see patterns in the noise, even when there is in fact only noise, than miss a real pattern. In order to be sure the pattern we think we see is really there we need to compensate for those biases, which is why we invented the scientific method.
ETA: For example there are noises going on around us all the time, our brains are constantly filtering most of them out as noise and picking out just a few to bring to the attention of our conscious awareness. The OP's brain picked out what sounded like footsteps and alerted his consciousness to them; the question is whether it was correct to do so, ie whether this was a true positive or a false positive.
Likewise we dream all the time, we often dream about people we know/have known, and occasionally something we dream is bound to correspond with something that later happens (especially when our memories are sufficiently malleable to retrospectively alter the dream to match the event). When someone attributes significance to one such correspondence are they doing so correctly, or is it a false positive? The only reliable way to find out whether dreams can genuinely be precognitive is to collect thousands of such dreams, accurately estimate the expected chance hit rate, and measure the actual hit rate for comparison. ie to use the scientific method to compensate for our propensity to see patterns that aren't actually there.
Regardless of the motivation, one should consider the idea on it's own merit.
The question of whether the dream occurred or didn't occur doesn't really have any relevance regarding the idea...
Einstein started out with thought experiments and it was many years later before any evidence for his theories could be established.
You make your own assumptions regarding my motivations therefore I feel free to do the same.
There is no way to test my idea at this point. I'm sure nothing about my idea is original so it's only a matter of time before more research will evolve, whether I'm right or wrong remains to be seen.
Not necessarily, why would physicists be consulted on consciousness?
This is one of those topics that would require a convergence of multiple branches of science before we could ever obtain any evidence, assuming we ever could.
I do criticize you, and a few others, because you haven't demonstrated to me that you understand the scientific method...
It's obvious that you didn't. Tegmark only said that quantum states would become decoherent before they could reach the temporal level but he did find evidence for quantum processes related to transport of energy.
It depends on how capable you are of synthesizing multiple research conclusions from various branches of science. You might not be familiar with everything to be able to discount what I'm suggesting. It seems you aren't based on what you've posted so far.
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I have issues with mediocrity posing as superiority. I've been asked specifically to demonstrate my understanding of different concepts, no one else here has returned the favor.
http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/history-validates-initial-skepticism/But here is where I find there is often a disconnect between scientists and the public, exacerbated by pseudoscientists: when scientists encounter an anomaly, what does that mean and how do they proceed? I often find that pseudoscientists encounter an anomaly and simply declare the anomaly as evidence for (or even proof of) the phenomenon for which they are looking. “You see that electromagnetic field? That’s a ghost.”
The idea that speculation ahead of any evidence is the way science, and therefore increasing our knowledge of the world, is and should work is soundly refuted.
And this is more evidence for the gaming hypothesis, but I will follow JayUtah's lead and leave motivation out, at least for the moment.
Of everyone actively involved in this discussion JayUtah (to whom you are responding) is the one who has demonstrated absolutely the best understanding, so either you have not read his posts, have read them and not understood them, or understood them but are pretending.
After JayUtah come a few others, myself included, who have shown a good layman's grasp.
After that group, going strictly by the posts in this thread, is you. Your links contradict each other and your claim. You repeatedly talk about the math and how it supports you and/or you can use it as a launching pad, but everything you say indicates you haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about.
That's where we are. I've read your posts and watched all but one of your videos. You haven't read our posts -- or at least show no indication of understanding them -- and haven't watched the one video Cosmic Yak put out there for you.
You are where you were long ago, i.e., tossing your desired outcome around as if it is supported by something. It's not, even despite your attempts to compare your musings to those of Einstein. It was not his thought experiments that were proven later; it was the math that he had used the thought experiments to illustrate.
Indirect self-comparisons to real geniuses do you no credit.
YOU thought his description of the scientific method was accurate? That is just sad.
I don't compare myself to Einstein, I'm comparing the hypotheses that some of these scientists that I've cited to Einstein.
The math involved remains to be verified...
You have been asked to demonstrate that what you claim is true. You have failed to do so. In the meantime, others here have demonstrated a grasp of the relevant concepts yet you pretend they have not.
If you wish to drop your dream claim that's fine, except now you need something else to indicate what the idea is. If it is that the consciousness of a deceased person not only survives but can communicate via dreams events still in the future to a living person, then you still have the same burden of proof. If that is not the idea, then you need to elucidate it.
No. The reason to question its authenticity is that you have not demonstrated that it is, in fact, authentic.
You are actually pretty good at this gaming. The derails are all yours, Jodie.
Let's cut to the chase then and prevent all derails:
1. Regardless if it actually occurred to you or not, your hypothesis is that the consciousness of a deceased person (a) survives the person's death, (b) can invade the dream of a living person, and (c) convey accurate prophetic information via that dream
2. In support of your hypothesis you offer:
a. A general reference to the work of Song, but the general reference does not in fact support the hypothesis
b. A video by Bryanton on the 5th Dimension, but the video -- besides being quite silly -- says nothing that supports any part of your hypothesis
c. A general reference to Christof Koch, but Koch's work very clearly runs counter to your hypothesis
d. A general reference to Tegmark, but Tegmark's work very clearly runs counter to your hypothesis
e. A claim that the math supports your hypothesis but a refusal to indicate whose math where
Please let's not derail. We are in the meat of it now so now is your chance.
Where is the math that supports your hypothesis?
What exactly in Tegmark and Koch support your hypothesis and in what fashion?
That does appear to be the problem. The person with the claim is demonstrating a superficial understanding.
But I could be wrong, seriously. It only needs demonstrating.
I've seen no evidence that any of you understand the concepts.
How would one demonstrate that a dream was authentic? That's pure nonsense.
Not really, [Tegmark] didn't find what he was looking for but did find evidence that suggested that quantum processes are involved in energy transference.
Any of the physicists I listed have there own equations to support what they are saying.
Equations that express Calabi -Yau Manifolds that describe 10 extra dimensions.
Of course there are people that have a better understanding of these concepts than I do. All I'm saying is that the loudest critics here probably aren't those people.
Explain in exactly what way it is sad.
Nonsense. Your claims were rejected as specious. You cited Einstein's thought experiments in direct response to my post about your speculation, and asked if we should also reject Einstein's thought experiments as well. Your argument makes no sense unless you were comparing yourself to Einstein. Comparing those other people to Einstein neither helps nor hinders your argument.
The math involves remains to be presented. You suggested that your claim has a mathematical basis, but we have yet to see a single iota of math from you. You suggested further that the mathematics involved were to be found in your various citations, but when pressed you conceded you were departing from (and thus contradicting) those robust presentations.
Your claim is evidently in no way based upon mathematics.
Now take what Song and Tegmark say about quantum processes and apply that to the research Koch has done. If you can't replicate a human neural network to express consciousness, then it isn't strictly a matter of A+B+C do this...
Yep, just keep poisoning that well, Jodie.
No more nonsensical than your demand that we explain it. The difference is that our demand for you to substantiate the reality of it arises from, and is subservient to, your demand for an explanation. But for your challenge to your critics to explain the dream, such a demand for substantiation would never have arisen.
"Energy transference" is not consciousness or ghosts. If you believe differently, you prove it. Tegmark doesn't.
But it is your contention (sometimes) that the equations support what you're saying. You haven't shown that your suppositions follow necessarily from what they say. In fact you conted (at other times) that you depart from them and therefore necessarily at those times contradict them. You can't therefore rely upon their mathematics if they support a contradictory argument.
From your critics' perspective, you have suggested you have a mathematical basis for your beliefs, but you simply handwave toward someone else's mathematical elaboration. You are being asked to supply your own now.
Not the same dimensions as in your speculation. I explored the idea of conceptual dimensionality at some length. I find it disappointing that you now write as if that exploration doesn't exist.
But you can't explain how or why. You have simply, from Day One, insisted that your critics are beneath you.
A recent post from NeuroLogica seems relevant at this point.
The gist is that speculation leads to jumping to the wrong conclusions. whereas skepticism, being a more cautious approach, is generally borne out. The idea that speculation ahead of any evidence is the way science, and therefore increasing our knowledge of the world, is and should work is soundly refuted.
http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/history-validates-initial-skepticism/
I commented previously on why you were incorrect. If he doesn't understand the reason then that is sad.
It is your opinion that my argument is specious, what evidence do you have for that?
My claim is based on the premise that other dimensions do exist based on the mathematics that indicates their presence. Why would anything that exists here be limited to just 4 dimensions whether it was human consciousness or a rock?
I would agree if I had stated my idea was fact but I haven't. There has to be some speculation involved based on what is known.
Because you have done nothing to explain why you think the premise is wrong. What exploration of dimensional reality did you do? I must have missed it.
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what quantum mechanics is. The inability to produce an automaton consisting of some particular vocabulary, that replicates quantum behavior, is not proof that such behavior must lie outside the ordinary expression of the physical world. The nature of quantum-governed systems is exactly that the progressive outcomes transcend the purview of A+B+C-do-this, yet conforms entirely to statistically knowable states of the system. Replace addition with Hamiltonians in your model and you have Tegmark's principal product, which he argues satisfies his definition of consciousness.
Then what does it prove?
We should be able to replicate it and we can't.
Not an answer, Please try again.
Asked and answered at length. In any case the point at hand is you comparing yourself to Einstein.
Either you did so and must confront the hubris of that argument, or you did not and your argument is moot. Which is it?
Your argument is that your vague mashup of physics and speculation constitute a scientific rationale for believing your mother actually appeared to you in the guise of a dream figure and portended the future. This is a thread about ghost stories in which you have proffered a ghost story. Do not suddenly pretend it is now just a coffeehouse physics discussion.
None of what you've presented proves the ghost of your mother predicted the future.
Get an appropriate degree and find out.
No. As I said, the vocabulary of automata and the vocabulary of quantum dynamics have only a slight intersection.
You told me once that you doubted my expertise in artificial intelligence. I listed my qualifications and asked for yours. I never heard back from you. The expectation you express above requires some degree of expertise. Therefore I will repeat my question.
What are your academic and/or professional qualifications in the field of artificial intelligence?