Corbyn did win, what's next?

Socialism as practised in Eastern Europe (a holiday destination for Corbyn and his girlfriend) and the Soviet Union would be a big one.

So what? Visiting a country means you have to endorse their economic policy? That's one of the most bizarre "guilt by association" memes it's possible to imagine!

All of this "socialism = misplaced idealism" / "capitalism = pragmatism" mantra is just simplistic nonsense. It's like you hate Corbyn because he doesn't conform to your own ideological purity - which includes shunning any contact, even cultural, with parts of the world seen (in a highly selective way) as anathema.

If you're so ready to judge a politician by arbitrary links to particular states, why don't you have anything to say about our current governments connections with Saudi Arabia? Or is it that visiting somewhere on holiday is suspect, but selling them weapons means nothing?
 
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So what? Visiting a country means you have to endorse their economic policy? That's one of the most bizarre "guilt by association" memes it's possible to imagine!

All of this "socialism = misplaced idealism" / "capitalism = pragmatism" mantra is just simplistic nonsense. It's like you hate Corbyn because he doesn't conform to your own ideological purity - which includes shunning any contact, even cultural, with parts of the world seen (in a highly selective way) as anathema.

If you're so ready to judge a politician by arbitrary links to particular states, why don't you have anything to say about our current governments connections with Saudi Arabia? Or is it that visiting somewhere on holiday is suspect, but selling them weapons means nothing?

This comment might have some validity if socialism was shown to work. Corbyn is beholden to a moribund ideology. Which is why he will fail. Comprehensibly.
 
So what? Visiting a country means you have to endorse their economic policy? That's one of the most bizarre "guilt by association" memes it's possible to imagine!

All of this "socialism = misplaced idealism" / "capitalism = pragmatism" mantra is just simplistic nonsense. It's like you hate Corbyn because he doesn't conform to your own ideological purity - which includes shunning any contact, even cultural, with parts of the world seen (in a highly selective way) as anathema.

Visiting East Germany in the 1970s and not noticing the stark economic contrast of East (socialism) with West Germany (capitalism), or the state control and repression in East Germany (Stasi), is fair grounds for criticism.

In 1983 Labour produced a manifesto full of socialist ideals which got called by its own side "the longest suicide note in history". At that time the Soviet Union was still a superpower and there was fair grounds for arguing the merits of socialism vs capitalism based on the apparent success of the Soviet Union. Since the economic collapse of the Soviet Union there are few grounds for arguing that socialism is better. However Corbyn believes that the 1983 manifesto is still an appropriate approach, while the rest of the world has moved on.

It is easy to see what Corbyn is against, but is harder to say what he is in favour of, as he couches much of it in 'asking for a debate'. However in his own words he is certainly in favour of nationalising utilities (electricity water and presumably gas), railways, and banks, although in terms which leave it unclear where he would limit the boundaries of nationalisation.

He is in favour of unilateral nuclear disarmament and winding up NATO, but has never made it clear how he thinks security would be guaranteed afterwards.
 
........At that time the Soviet Union was still a superpower and there was fair grounds for arguing the merits of socialism vs capitalism based on the apparent success of the Soviet Union.......

I'm on your side of this discussion, but this is a dodgy argument. It is very hard to make the case that the Soviet Union was socialist, when it was in fact communist.
 
I'm on your side of this discussion, but this is a dodgy argument. It is very hard to make the case that the Soviet Union was socialist, when it was in fact communist.

I don't think anybody would refer to the USSR as "communist". "State monopoly capitalist" was more like it.
 
I'm on your side of this discussion, but this is a dodgy argument. It is very hard to make the case that the Soviet Union was socialist, when it was in fact communist.

IIRC they claimed that they were on the road to full communism, but never actually achieved it.:)

"State monopoly capitalist" was more like it.

According to Lenin:

imperialism was a specific stage of development of capitalism; a stage he referred to as state monopoly capitalism.

Unfortunately (or not) you have to be a certain age to split these hairs.
 
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Indeed. North Korea is an example of the society at least some of Corbyn's acolytes aspire to.

:jaw-dropp

This is such a ludicrous claim that it doesn't really require a reply. It says more about the level of the anti-Corbyn comment than it does about Corbyn, or his supporters.
 
Visiting East Germany in the 1970s and not noticing the stark economic contrast of East (socialism) with West Germany (capitalism), or the state control and repression in East Germany (Stasi), is fair grounds for criticism.

Your basis for saying "he didn't notice them" being ... what, exactly?
In 1983 Labour produced a manifesto full of socialist ideals which got called by its own side "the longest suicide note in history".

This was a term coined by Gerald Kaufman. There were Labour MPs out of step with the bulk of the party, then as now.
At that time the Soviet Union was still a superpower and there was fair grounds for arguing the merits of socialism vs capitalism based on the apparent success of the Soviet Union. Since the economic collapse of the Soviet Union there are few grounds for arguing that socialism is better. However Corbyn believes that the 1983 manifesto is still an appropriate approach, while the rest of the world has moved on.

Not "the rest of the world". Only those eager to make cheap subjective points instead of addressing actual details of policy on their merits. Not, for instance, this writer:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/jun/10/labour.margaretthatcher

- who makes a cogent case that the 1983 Labour manifesto was correct for the economics of the time. You don't have to agree with him, of course, but it's a far more measured and mature outlook than quoting Gerald Kaufman's soundbite.

Oh, by the way, here's an entertaining (in hindsight) footnote on the catchiness of the "longest suicide note" phrase (dated April 2015):

http://www.economist.com/news/brita...es-not-strong-arm-labour-fact-it-condemns-snp

Humble pie, much?

In reality, of course, had it not been for the Falklands invasion - or had the conflict not ended in Britain's favour - and being able to cash in on the patriotic euphoria of the time, Thatcher would almost certainly have lost the election in 1983 (or 1984 as it would have been). Prior to the Falklands campaign, she was the most unpopular PM we had ever had. It's a regrettable comment on democracy, that there is no vote-winner like a (successful) war.

The way things worked out, no Labour leader would have won in 1983 - not even Tony Blair and New Labour. Conversely, even Michael Foot (had he not been 14 years older than in 1983) would have won in 1997, as the Tories by then were completely washed-up. Labour's failure in 1983, as was their success in 1997, was a result of factors outside their control.
It is easy to see what Corbyn is against, but is harder to say what he is in favour of, as he couches much of it in 'asking for a debate'.

So why do you claim to speak for him, declaring that he has not changed his views since the 1980s?
However in his own words he is certainly in favour of nationalising utilities (electricity water and presumably gas), railways, and banks, although in terms which leave it unclear where he would limit the boundaries of nationalisation.

He is in favour of unilateral nuclear disarmament and winding up NATO, but has never made it clear how he thinks security would be guaranteed afterwards.

What is there to make clear? The pro-nuclear side never make it clear how nuclear weapons contribute to our "security" in the first place. The "deterrence" argument is more ideology than rational military strategy.

As for NATO, I actually agree that it has contributed to security in Europe over the time of its existence - but not for the reasons it claims. If you look at history, all the major wars of Europe involved nations that are currently in NATO (and the EU): England, France, Spain, Germany, Netherlands. If we're not at each others throats now, it isn't because of nuclear weapons and in as much as it's NATO - well, you tell me.
 
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........This was a term coined by Gerald Kaufman. There were Labour MPs out of step with the bulk of the party, then as now.........

You neatly overlook the fact that Kaufman was absolutely right, and that Michael Foot didn't come within a country mile of winning power with his silly load of socialist nonsense.
 
You neatly overlook the fact that Kaufman was absolutely right, and that Michael Foot didn't come within a country mile of winning power with his silly load of socialist nonsense.

"Fact" was it? That's an interesting use of the word.

In any case, it ignores the rest of my post. Labour lost in 1983 because of the Falklands factor, not because of their manifesto programme.
 
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I don't know why Jeremy Corbyn and Tony Benn were so keen on comprehensive schools. I supose it was to make sure that grammar school boys never reached the business, or political elite. I went to a Direct Grant grammar school but I never attained fame and fortune. Many of my Secondary Modern acquaintances became quite wealthy.

The kids of one of my brothers went to the local comprehensive school and they all went to university. One of my sisters deliberately had her kids privately educated in order to avoid going to comprehensive school.

The thing that annoys me a bit is politicians are full of empty waffle about comprehensives but when it comes to their own kids they either have them privately educated, or sent to grammar schools. Diane Abbot had her kid privately educated, and it sounds as though Harriet Harman is sending her kid to grammar school. Attlee's kids were privately educated, of course.

In my own area the local comprehensive is in special measures and there is no grammar school for the kids to go. I suppose that's good news for the private schools.
 
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The Education Secretary, Nicky Morgan, seems keen on new Grammars, to the extent of twisting the law? : "New selective state school would be unlawful, but education secretary may consider new site for ‘annexe’ of Weald of Kent girls’ grammar" This "annexe" would be in another town 9 miles away.

The Guardian
 
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.........In any case, it ignores the rest of my post. Labour lost in 1983 because of the Falklands factor, not because of their manifesto programme.

You carry on telling yourself that. When Corbyn's agenda sends Labour even further backwards in 4+ years time, you'll find another excuse for that. You'll carry on doing what the left has carried on doing for just about ever: deluding themselves that the British public is eager for left wing economics. If the left could understand that social justice and equality of opportunity are the side of their agenda that most Brits will accept, and that tax-and-spend, public ownership, excess borrowing, trade union influence, and so on is something the public will never support, then they could eventually put together a programme that might win an election.............except that would be too much like New Labour, wouldn't it, and therefore completely taboo.
 
You carry on telling yourself that. When Corbyn's agenda sends Labour even further backwards in 4+ years time, you'll find another excuse for that. You'll carry on doing what the left has carried on doing for just about ever: deluding themselves that the British public is eager for left wing economics.

You're talking as though the 2020 election has already happened. Get back to me when it has. Actually, get back to me when there's been a bye-election, and the local government elections.

You see, I'm not the one making predictions. I am well aware that Corbyn's Labour faces a mountain to climb to get to power, and the big obstacle will be (as it always has been) a virulently hostile press. However, they have a hostile press regardless of who the leader is, and (in my judgement) they have a better chance with the distinctive choice that Corbyn has to offer, rather than a re-run of the 2015 election with one of the 3 cardboard cutouts as the alternative leader.
If the left could understand that social justice and equality of opportunity are the side of their agenda that most Brits will accept, and that tax-and-spend, public ownership, excess borrowing, trade union influence, and so on is something the public will never support,

This is just more claiming to be an authority on what the public wants - while at the same time, again, speaking for the "left" as though knowing what they're going to do. It's impossible to have a discussion with a true believer.
then they could eventually put together a programme that might win an election.............except that would be too much like New Labour, wouldn't it, and therefore completely taboo.

New Labour is dead - damaged goods, contaminated with the Iraq war, not trusted, lost the last 2 elections and only won the elections they did because the Tory opposition was in disarray. Get used to it.
 
I hope that's a joke.

No, quit serious. Bases in Northern Ireland weren't needed any more than bases on the west coast of Scotland or NE England. They don't give any advantage over any other location in the Irish Sea. Northern Ireland has no coast on to The Atlantic.
 
If the left could understand that social justice and equality of opportunity are the side of their agenda that most Brits will accept...

What if Brits see what the Tories are doing in those fields and decide that almost anything is better than Osborne's savage working credit cuts and Cameron's total failure to curb megacorp tax evasion? Not to mention rampant money-laundering using the UK as a haven, and pandering to the Chinese and Saudis? And the NHS facing staggering deficits ...

I note that enough losers in the tax credit field live in Tory marginals to *theoretically* lead to the loss of all those seats (of course, some were Labour voters anyway, so it isn't that simple). The point is that elections often hang on a limited number of policies and perceptions, not the broad sweep. In this case the "limited number" are massively important to a lot of voters.

We're only a few months into this government and already it's creaking at the seams, and folks are speculating that Cameron wishes he'd resigned sooner. They're displaying all the signs of megalomania. And would The Daily Mail have published the pig-shagging allegations unless they were seriously going off Cameron?
 

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