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The day you are saved - from religion

I'm trying to work out whether AIDS is a step up or a step down from syphilis.

I do feel it's worth noting, however, that Leumas has been unable to provide even one example of someone being persuaded that their religion is wrong due to an approach like his. So far in this thread the evidence suggests that the most effective method is reasoned debate, although I'll concede that the evidence actually in this thread is slight. This is why it would take little effort on Leumas' part to provide ample counter-evidence.
 

It's interesting to read Nancy Reagan's comments on the issue

Nancy later wrote, "Very few people can understand what it's like to have your husband shot at and almost die, and then have him exposed all the time to enormous crowds, tens of thousands of people, any one of whom might be a lunatic with a gun.... I was doing everything I could think of to protect my husband and keep him alive."[2]

Of the entire incident, Nancy Reagan said, "Nobody was hurt by it—except, possibly, me


Woo though it may be I think the only real issue of debate here would be her spending tax payers money to PAY for this woman.

However I think the general attitude of her actions was "She was desperate and she did something stupid out of desperation. She probably felt it was giving her a sense of control in the middle of the whole thing. It was a comfort to her."

I kind of feel the same way about religion. Now case in point, to address sylavn's question more specifically, Anytime I've seen a congressman or someone like that stand up in the middle of Congress and start invoking GOD that is something that would flip me out.

First of all they know damn well they are not supposed to do that. They probably do it because they get brownie points from voters. But the BIBLE especially should not be being mentioned at ALL in the middle of government places of business.

On that end I can appreciate and even value the fervor of the Angry Atheist but I very rarely see energy directed there.

But I've slammed my head against the wall in frustration watching the people "debate" Creationism with Evolution.

The alternative to Evolution is NOT CREATIONISM. When you drag on and on in the debate you actually VALIDATE it as an "alternative theory"

Why?

Do we sit down and argue with the origin stories of Ancient Greece? Do we have a public platform where Bill Nye sits across from a person who thinks ALIENS created life on earth by seeding the planet ala Prometheus?


Why not? Doing so gives legitimacy to their beliefs. We need to treat woo beliefs the same and leave them to their "fanaticism" and carry on focusing on developing our country as one that separates church and state.

Watching all this you marvel at how amazing the founding fathers were in setting up our country. We can see how easily it would be to slip into a theocracy today.
 
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An analogy which would have much more significance had Kim Davis ever reached the point where she had actually committed a crime. Unfortunate there were no statutes in existence which raised her intransigence to that level.

Throw that bone to a dog. If one thing differentiates anglosaxon law from codified law is that there's no need of a statute to action when a criminal act is involved. There's no such thing as the state depriving citizens of their rights and the officials involved not being prosecuted (unless you live in Venezuela or Russia). You may argue a lot about an effective penalization that might get, but that's not excuse for no taking action nor to consider actions not taken to be business as usual.

Indeed, this is more telling. You, quadraginta, seem to be a very good merchant, and as any merchant you are skilful twisting things, hiding defects and exaggerating virtues, to finally enjoy when the product is sold, like a hunter that caught game. You enjoy so much the process of selling that you will continue to reply with nonsensical bits. However, this bit about the Davis freak makes difficult to avoid noticing that you seem to find more offence in people believing than in people actually harming non-believers in the real society. What is exactly my point. Anti-theists are a large group with many different manifestations and a common impairing defect.
 
That is a truly weird way of trying to avoid admitting you had made a mistake.

And we have made clear by your own admission that you didn't inadvertently misspeak the first time. You were (and apparently remain) utterly clueless about the facts surrounding your anecdote. The ones which make it implausible.

How about trying to respond with actual content.

Which major Protestant denominations in the U.S. practice a prohibition against eating meat on Fridays?

If you can answer that question (which should be interesting) you may follow up by demonstrating that the influence of those Protestant denominations is so strong in Boston that not only would the cafeterias refuse to serve any meat on Fridays, but that "the public" would view anyone who wanted meat with overt hostility.

These are the claims you have made, and doubled down on.

Try offering some real evidence instead of pithing all over everything.

Your problem is you make conceptual salads and you continue to demand others to eat them. Have your facts straighten about this matter -as you have decided to play stupid selectively and you might decide to stop doing that- and this branch of the conversation will continue.
 
Ofc it was "low level". The entire reason I used it was to see if we could share a common ground on something which I know is frequently misunderstood but it really rather simple.

Ya, holding a position does not make one closed to changing it. What kind of backwards world do you live in where if you hold a position on anything you're can't possibly be open to changing your mind? You keep saying I'm closed minded without good justification.
I've given REASONS for my position. I've given you and others the opportunity to poke holes in my reasoning but instead of doing so, I am met with accusations of being closed minded.

Your analogy doesn't work. Here's a summary from my point of view, with some things skipped/combined for clarity.

Me: I think it is worth applying skepticism to religious claims on a case by case basis

Others: Why do you think you're so RIGHT about religious beliefs? Don't you realize you're as militant as the fundies?

Me: I'm advocating for a method to better reach the truth for reasons X, Y, Z

Others: Exactly, you think your position is right and that makes you "religious" (antitheist). It also probably stems from how your deconversion and now all you can think to do is convert people to the NEW truth.

Me: I was never deconverted. Of course I think I'm right. I gave you reasons for why I think I'm right that my methodology is worth spreading, and not to put religion on a pedestal in this respect. What is wrong with my reasoning? I don't claim to hold the truth on any specific position (such as "does god exist") only that what we should believe is best filtered through scientific skepticism, and that most people have never even seriously evaluated their religious beliefs (thanks to indoctrination).

Others: See! you have religious fervor and think that you couldn't possibly be wrong!

Me: Where am I wrong?

Others: You're closed minded!!!
. . .
. . .
. . .
Alec: You're closed minded because you have a belief!

Me: Under that logic all beliefs are impossible to change because all beliefs are enclosed in a closed mind

It's clear "you are the book", you are "your own bible". Speaking of methodology and for the sake of scepticism, you should learn to detect when you're thinking "everything I do is coherent and one of the best things to do". The more you explain yourself the more closeminded you seem to me, like you only can give the same answer, changing only the circumstances and justification.

If you think I am not taking what you are giving, you are completely right. There's no use in reading what seems different but comes from an unchanged point of view. Openmindedness comes from wearing other people's shoes, not by developing yours into jewelled slippers saying "look how flexible and rich I am".
 
Explained as




All I saw in that post you so psychically interpreted is more anti-atheism claptrap telling us that "non-theist freaks" want to brainwash people into atheism.

But your explanation is interesting too... so what he is saying is that atheists should not be allowed to be jurors because they are fanatical freaks incapable of thinking rationally and thus can never render a just verdict.

Well...well!!!

Your obsession is unhealthy and it doesn't even do any good to your "cause".

I don't need megabytes of text like you. You simply are saying that religion is the monster and others who say you are exaggerating, you are wrong or you are a joke happen to be monsters too. And that's pretty much it.

You repeat it, repeat it, repeat it, this way, that way, that other way, just like a ritual showing in essence how religiously invested you and your pals are, what was my whole point all along the thread.

I don't need to tell it many times because you confirm it with your posting spree.
 
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It's clear "you are the book", you are "your own bible". Speaking of methodology and for the sake of scepticism, you should learn to detect when you're thinking "everything I do is coherent and one of the best things to do". The more you explain yourself the more closeminded you seem to me, like you only can give the same answer, changing only the circumstances and justification.

If you think I am not taking what you are giving, you are completely right. There's no use in reading what seems different but comes from an unchanged point of view. Openmindedness comes from wearing other people's shoes, not by developing yours into jewelled slippers saying "look how flexible and rich I am".

How do you detect what he's thinking? There's a million dollars in it if you can do it regularly.

Your whole approach is to project thoughts upon others then lambaste them for what you have projected.
 
It's clear "you are the book", you are "your own bible". Speaking of methodology and for the sake of scepticism, you should learn to detect when you're thinking "everything I do is coherent and one of the best things to do". The more you explain yourself the more closeminded you seem to me, like you only can give the same answer, changing only the circumstances and justification.

If you think I am not taking what you are giving, you are completely right. There's no use in reading what seems different but comes from an unchanged point of view. Openmindedness comes from wearing other people's shoes, not by developing yours into jewelled slippers saying "look how flexible and rich I am".
I can only give the same answer if the same question is asked and no one or thing challenges my understanding between each question.

How am I expected to change my mind throughout a conversation if I'm not given any REASON to? If someone tells you that they think astrology is great and you say "you're closed minded" over and over, you're not going to change their mind at all. You're literally giving them no REASON to.

But my guess is that this conversation is over, because you're not doing your part after accusing me of closed mindedness by demonstrating it. If anything, like I said, you're demonstrating a lack of understanding of what closed mindedness IS. That, or you just like to frustrate other posters by making accusations and then pretending that anything they say afterwards is proof you are correct, regardless of reason. Hey, that sounds a lot like closed mindedness, actually.
 
Thus, Christian politics has as its primary intent the conquest of the land – of men, families, institutions, bureaucracies, courts, and governments for the Kingdom of Christ. It is to reinstitute the authority of God’s Word as supreme over all judgments, over all legislation, over all declarations, constitutions, and confederations."
So will we ultimately see them in a head-to-head (pun intended) battle with ISIS, which has declared essentially the same goal, as I understand it? Where, then, are the minions of Astrologists going to be in this battle?
 
Finally had time to watch this through and I'm immediately a fan. :thumbsup:

Loved the video, but why oh why does his character look like a flying person doing crunches all the frigging time? Even when sitting in a chair he had his feet in the air.

Personally, I stopped going to church back in 2008, and the rest of my family still struggles with that. Two of my sons were in a serious discussion the other night about the importance of being saved by Jesus, and the consequences of not believing.

I finally turned around and said they could both stop worrying if they dropped the magic ring into Mount Doom. I was immediately criticized by one son for my comment, but their discussion came to a screeching halt. I wasn't making fun of their religious discussion, I only used sarcasm to point out how one work of fiction can be compared to another.

I guess that was horribly evil of me. :D

RayG
 
Loved the video, but why oh why does his character look like a flying person doing crunches all the frigging time? Even when sitting in a chair he had his feet in the air.

Personally, I stopped going to church back in 2008, and the rest of my family still struggles with that. Two of my sons were in a serious discussion the other night about the importance of being saved by Jesus, and the consequences of not believing.

I finally turned around and said they could both stop worrying if they dropped the magic ring into Mount Doom. I was immediately criticized by one son for my comment, but their discussion came to a screeching halt. I wasn't making fun of their religious discussion, I only used sarcasm to point out how one work of fiction can be compared to another.

I guess that was horribly evil of me. :D

RayG

Jesus saves you from what his dad* condemned you to.

*he


Nice soul you got there.
 
<snip... piles of claptrap sophistry in defense of religion betraying a deep anti-atheism and anger towards atheists with illogical fallacies by the heaps of ad hominems, personal puerile insults, bare assertions of falsities and straw manning>


I provide a plethora of evidence for the pernicious nature of religions from contemporary affairs and from history with ample citations and facts that can be verified by anyone who knows how to reason and to honestly search for facts.

You retort with puerile personal abuses and illogical fallacies and bare assertions without any substance and you even go as far as labeling the presentation of evidence a laughable unhealthy obsession... all in an ardent display of an angry hateful disdain for atheism and utter love of religion... well now we have MORE EVIDENCE for where you stand in regards to reality and the honest pursuit of facts.

Thanks for proving me right yet again.
 
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One middle aged woman who tried to have the whispers in her husband's ear be heard over the many others he was beholden to is not much in comparison the the antics of an entire political party intent on ingratiating themselves to Christian fundamentalists who want nothing more than to see all secular law relegated to second place behind their twisted interpretations of a book full of mistranslated mythology and an ideology based on fear and bigotry.

You and TT have tried to compare the two as if they were equal influences. They weren't.

And what little (if any) influence Mrs. Reagan's sad belief in such claptrap might have had ended with her husband's term of office.

I wish we could say that about the hypocritical toadies in the Republican party who have hitched their wagon to the fundies for decades.
 
One middle aged woman who tried to have the whispers in her husband's ear be heard over the many others he was beholden to is not much in comparison the the antics of an entire political party intent on ingratiating themselves to Christian fundamentalists who want nothing more than to see all secular law relegated to second place behind their twisted interpretations of a book full of mistranslated mythology and an ideology based on fear and bigotry.

You and TT have tried to compare the two as if they were equal influences. They weren't.

And what little (if any) influence Mrs. Reagan's sad belief in such claptrap might have had ended with her husband's term of office.

I wish we could say that about the hypocritical toadies in the Republican party who have hitched their wagon to the fundies for decades.

I am not able to quantify the degree of her influence.
It was there in addition to the influence(s) referred to in your last paragraph.

That is the worrying part.
 
I'm not really an agnostic atheist. I'm angry at God because I didn't get a pony that one time, so I'm pretending to not believe in Him. So there!
 
I'm not really an agnostic atheist. I'm angry at God because I didn't get a pony that one time, so I'm pretending to not believe in Him. So there!

Me too, I shoveled out that whole room and all I got was a chick tract.
 
Throw that bone to a dog. If one thing differentiates anglosaxon law from codified law is that there's no need of a statute to action when a criminal act is involved.


Interesting assertion. Go ahead and back it up.


There's no such thing as the state depriving citizens of their rights and the officials involved not being prosecuted (unless you live in Venezuela or Russia). You may argue a lot about an effective penalization that might get, but that's not excuse for no taking action nor to consider actions not taken to be business as usual.


All very interesting (to someone, I suppose) but not particularly germane to the particular incident under discussion, since action quite obviously was taken in that case. And quite quickly too, compared to the way those things ususually go.

Indeed, this is more telling. You, quadraginta, seem to be a very good merchant, and as any merchant you are skilful twisting things, hiding defects and exaggerating virtues, to finally enjoy when the product is sold, like a hunter that caught game. You enjoy so much the process of selling that you will continue to reply with nonsensical bits.


Can't help yourself, can you. Unable to provide a rational response you resort to insult.

However, this bit about the Davis freak makes difficult to avoid noticing that you seem to find more offence in people believing than in people actually harming non-believers in the real society.


What a remarkably strange claim to make. Are you suggesting that because I find fault with the harm done by believers to society in general and not specifically and solely that which is done to non-believers that somehow I am less offended by the latter.

My concern is with the harm done to anyone. Even that by believers which is done to other believers. Or by non-believers to believers (although their definition of "harm" and my own frequently diverge.)

I have no reason to single out specific groups for any reason at all.

Whatever gave you such a peculiar idea?

What is exactly my point. Anti-theists are a large group with many different manifestations


Is this your attempt at an excuse for painting everyone who doesn't agree with you in every regard with the same tired brush?

I do not initiate conversations concerning religious faith or spirituality with anyone. I haven't since I was a pre-teen, since it was obvious to me even then that such conversations were either echo chambers or solution free.

I could not care less if someone chooses to worship Jehovah, Mohamed, Krishna, TFSM, Santa Claus, Jack Frost, or their pet gerbil.

I don't challenge anyone on their beliefs, and I don't bother trying to 'talk them out of it'. I just don't bring the subject up

I wish I could say the same for all of them. The persistence and intensity of their efforts is the only factor which would affect my own. I am, quite simply, bored by the subject.

However, when organizations (not infrequently churches or the representatives of religions) try to make their own particular beliefs into obligations for society in general then I speak out. Why should I not?

That's the question you need to answer. It can only be called "anti-theist" by a zealot, because I don't give a damn about their theology. All I care about is overt efforts to mandate the strictures of their theology on people who disagree with them.


and a common impairing defect.


Go ahead. Tell us all what that is.

See if you can manage to be specific.

For a change.
 
Your problem is you make conceptual salads and you continue to demand others to eat them. Have your facts straighten about this matter -as you have decided to play stupid selectively and you might decide to stop doing that- and this branch of the conversation will continue.


What a strange argument for you to make.

Look. You made a mistake. At first I assumed it was a typo, and gave you the opportunity to correct it.

Instead you chose to double down, and as seems to be your normal pattern, lacking any adequate response you resort to insult and obfuscation.

Your claim. Your evidence.

Name a major Protestant denomination in the U.S. which prohibits the consumption of meat on Friday.

If you can do it then do it. You seem so convinced of your facts that it shouldn't be hard to manage.

For bonus points you can provide evidence that this denomination is so dominant in Boston that it controls cafeterias and mandates public approbation and disapproval.

If you can't then at least have the strength of character to concede that you might have been in error. No one will think less of you for it.
 

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