Bush Texas Air National Guard Memos are Forgeries

[Dr. Keith]

I don't quite understand your analogies, but I suspect they're not justified.

Yes, the damsel will be won shortly.

 

[Giordano]

I personally am not holding the criticisms of Kerry's military record against him. I disliked Kerry long before I even knew about the criticism, and I don't really care about somebody's 30 year old military record anyway, at least with respect to being President. In other words, I'm agnostic. Many of Kerry's supporters, on the other hand, are not agnostic. They, without much evidence to speak of, are claiming that the Swift Boat Veterans are disgusting liars. They are so confident of this fact that they equate claims to the contrary with Holocaust denial and flat-Eartherness (flattery?).

Did you look up my citation to look at the evidence?
Military awards are typically not given to lower rank officers without a lot of evidence. And there are people who were there on the boat at the time who support his version of events. Why wouldn't his supporters be confident, given this evidence? Isn't this comparable to the people who support a spherical Earth also based on evidence versus lack of same for their opposition?

I also find your claim of being agnostic highly questionable. If you truly had no opinion you would hardly have introduced this accusation nor persisted in discussing it here.

 

[sunmaster14]

So someone would support a lie, McCann's support of Kerry, even if they weren't being paid to do so?

It's McCain by the way, and denouncing people for saying something is not the same thing as lying. He doesn't think people should question a veteran's military service. It seems to be an article of faith with him. There are other people who think you shouldn't question the sincerity of Mother Theresa or the Pope. Tomato, tomahto.

In any case, I never claimed that it was impossible to lie without the prospect of a financial reward. I just said that in this case there wasn't one, and given that there wasn't, the burden is on those who claim lies were told to come up with a plausible motive for lying.

 

[Giordano]

I personally am not holding the criticisms of Kerry's military record against him. I disliked Kerry long before I even knew about the criticism, and I don't really care about somebody's 30 year old military record anyway, at least with respect to being President. In other words, I'm agnostic. Many of Kerry's supporters, on the other hand, are not agnostic. They, without much evidence to speak of, are claiming that the Swift Boat Veterans are disgusting liars. They are so confident of this fact that they equate claims to the contrary with Holocaust denial and flat-Eartherness (flattery?).

Which is exactly why you are willing to believe the criticism might be accurate, even given the lack of evidence. Just recognize that possibility, rather than believing that you are somehow a completely unbiased, external, unemotional arbitrator of The Truth.

 

[Giordano]

It's McCain by the way, and denouncing people for saying something is not the same thing as lying. He doesn't think people should question a veteran's military service. It seems to be an article of faith with him. There are other people who think you shouldn't question the sincerity of Mother Theresa or the Pope. Tomato, tomahto.

In any case, I never claimed that it was impossible to lie without the prospect of a financial reward. I just said that in this case there wasn't one, and given that there wasn't, the burden is on those who claim lies were told to come up with a plausible motive for lying.

All ready answered, and this has become completely silly. I explained why someone would lie if not for financial gain, and why the SBTs might lie for non-financial reasons. Frankly, I don't believe that you can't imagine the same possible reasons yourself. You are good at speculation without evidence.

For that matter, do you have any evidence that none of the organizers of the SBT organization were not paid salaries or other forms of personal income for their roles in slimeing Kerry?

 

[sunmaster14]

If they are liars or simply stating lies is not that relevant to the question of Kerry's service.

By these same standards, how do you do know that the people claiming Bush did not fulfill his military service are wrong? Sure the documents used by 60 minutes were forgeries, but that just means that other accusers don't have evidence. But why would they lie? Most or all of them are not being paid to do so. So why not believe that there is some truth to it by your own standards?

I have not and would not call people who knew George Bush at the time, and have criticized his guard service based on their recollections, liars, and certainly not disgusting liars. And, frankly, I do think there is some truth to the allegations that he slacked off on his guard service in his last two years and just sort of barely squeaked by fulfilling his duty. I'm agnostic on the question of whether he went AWOL. As a technical matter, he apparently did not, since there is no official record of his being AWOL.

I would call Burkett a liar though because his lies are demonstrable, based on logic and science.

 

[Giordano]

It's McCain by the way, and denouncing people for saying something is not the same thing as lying. He doesn't think people should question a veteran's military service. It seems to be an article of faith with him. There are other people who think you shouldn't question the sincerity of Mother Theresa or the Pope. Tomato, tomahto.

In any case, I never claimed that it was impossible to lie without the prospect of a financial reward. I just said that in this case there wasn't one, and given that there wasn't, the burden is on those who claim lies were told to come up with a plausible motive for lying.

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-b...ns-insult-sparks-debate-over-obamas-military:

"A famously blunt and direct political figure, Navy war hero McCain’s latest ire has been directed towards a fellow Navy man, Pentagon Press Secretary, Rear Admiral John Kirby. During a recent North Carolina radio interview, the senator labeled him “this idiot Admiral Kirby” while expressing frustration with a rambling response at a Pentagon press briefing on whether or not the U.S. is losing the fight against the Islamic State terror group as McCain had suggested earlier this month."

 

[sunmaster14]

<snip>

I also find your claim of being agnostic highly questionable. If you truly had no opinion you would hardly have introduced this accusation nor persisted in discussing it here.

I didn't introduce the topic at all. I was merely challenging somebody else's characterization of the event. And I am not persisting in discussing the topic. Frankly, I'm not interested in it. I'm only trying to point out the flaws in what I believe to be flawed arguments.

 

[sunmaster14]

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-b...ns-insult-sparks-debate-over-obamas-military:

"A famously blunt and direct political figure, Navy war hero McCain’s latest ire has been directed towards a fellow Navy man, Pentagon Press Secretary, Rear Admiral John Kirby. During a recent North Carolina radio interview, the senator labeled him “this idiot Admiral Kirby” while expressing frustration with a rambling response at a Pentagon press briefing on whether or not the U.S. is losing the fight against the Islamic State terror group as McCain had suggested earlier this month."

Huh? Not sure that that has to do with anything.

 

[SezMe]

Do you know that all, or even most, of the Swift Boat vets are conservative, let alone supported Bush's agenda over Kerry's? I don't. I suspect instead that they were motivated by ill will towards Kerry, and I think that goes back to his anti-war activism in 1971-1972. That ill will could be a motivation to lie, but it is probably also the case that it was informed by their perception of him as a blowhard who exaggerated his military record.

Two of the three original SBVT founders listed on wiki are conservatives.

There is no doubt in my mind that they were motivated by ill will which is not inconsistent with being a conservative.

 

[SezMe]

All ready answered, and this has become completely silly. I explained why someone would lie if not for financial gain, and why the SBTs might lie for non-financial reasons. Frankly, I don't believe that you can't imagine the same possible reasons yourself. You are good at speculation without evidence.

I also provided a motive distinct from money. Apparently sunmaster14 has missed our posts.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I also provided a motive distinct from money. Apparently sunmaster14 has missed our posts.

The windmills were getting away . . .

 

[varwoche]

There are numerous reasons to doubt the swift boat veterans veracity and motivations. Such as...

Did they call out Kerry's medals/actions at the time? No, in fact he was praised.

Did they call out Kerry'Is medals/actions when he was seeking nomination, as a service to the nation? No, they waited until after he was nominated in order to launch an October surprise.

 

[varwoche]

Oh by the way... the leader of the SBVs wasn't even in Vietnam at the same time as Kerry.

 

[Giordano]

Oh by the way... the leader of the SBVs wasn't even in Vietnam at the same time as Kerry.

In fact, none of his accusers were there during the actions that led to his medals. Only one of his accusers even served under him ever. I wonder how many had any knowledge of his service career first hand, rather than simply believing and reiterating talking points created by politically motivated operatives?

It makes the Satanic Day Care scandals seem evidence-rich in comparison. At least many of the accusers in the latter had been to the Day Care centers in question when they dropped off their kids.

 

[Tero]

Will I see bush do his missing year at the National Guard served ever? Wasn't he at the bar and golf course most of the time?

 

[sunmaster14]

There are numerous reasons to doubt the swift boat veterans veracity and motivations. Such as...

Did they call out Kerry's medals/actions at the time? No, in fact he was praised.

It is a lot less work and hassle to praise somebody under your command than to criticize him, especially with respect to official evaluations. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a strong temptation for commanding officers to do the equivalent of the "social promotion" that teachers do for their lagging students. Bush got lots of official praise from his commanding officers in the Texas ANG too.

Did they call out Kerry'Is medals/actions when he was seeking nomination, as a service to the nation? No, they waited until after he was nominated in order to launch an October surprise.

It was hardly an October surprise. Here's the public letter that was signed by the SBVT members in May 2004. I think it is worth quoting in full to show that there was a lot more to their criticism of Kerry than claims of undeserved medals:

Senator Kerry,
We write from our common heritage as veterans of duty aboard Swift Boats in the Vietnam War. Indeed, you should note that a substantial number of those men who served directly with you during your four month tour in Vietnam have signed this letter.

It is our collective judgment that, upon your return from Vietnam, you grossly and knowingly distorted the conduct of the American soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen of that war (including a betrayal of many of us, without regard for the danger your actions caused us). Further, we believe that you have withheld and/or distorted material facts as to your own conduct in this war.

We believe you continue this conduct today, albeit by changing from an anti-war to a "war hero" status. You now seek to clad yourself in the very medals that you disdainfully threw away in the early years of your political career. In the process, we believe you continue a deception as to your own conduct through such tactics as the disclosure of only carefully screened portions of your military records. Both then and now, we have concluded that you have deceived the public, and in the process have betrayed honorable men, to further your personal political goals.

Your conduct is such as to raise substantive concerns as to your honesty and your ability to serve, as you currently seek, as Commander-in-Chief of the military services.

It is vital that the American public have as much information as possible about candidates for President of the United States. In various ways, you have rightly called upon President Bush to be fully accountable and to provide full disclosure. In the same spirit, now that you are the presumptive nominee of your Party, we believe it is incumbent upon you to make your total military record open to the American people.

Specifically, we the undersigned formally request that you authorize the Department of the Navy to independently release your military records (through your execution of Standard Form 180), complete and unaltered, including your military medical records. Further, we call upon you to correct the misconceptions your campaign seeks to create as to your conduct while in Vietnam. Permit the American public the opportunity to assess your military performance upon the record, and not upon campaign rhetoric.

Senator Kerry, we were there. We know the truth. We have been silent long enough. The stakes are too great, not only for America in general but, most importantly, for those who have followed us into service in Iraq and Afghanistan. We call upon you to provide a full, accurate accounting of your conduct in Vietnam.

 

[sunmaster14]

In fact, none of his accusers were there during the actions that led to his medals. Only one of his accusers even served under him ever. I wonder how many had any knowledge of his service career first hand, rather than simply believing and reiterating talking points created by politically motivated operatives?

That is false. None were on his boat, but some of his accusers were on other boats at the time and place of some of the incidents.

It makes the Satanic Day Care scandals seem evidence-rich in comparison. At least many of the accusers in the latter had been to the Day Care centers in question when they dropped off their kids.

That is utterly ridiculous. Are you even trying to make reasonable arguments any more or have you just given up?

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Will I see bush do his missing year at the National Guard served ever? Wasn't he at the bar and golf course most of the time?

They counted it against him and made him serve a second term as POTUS in punishment.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

That is false. None were on his boat, but some of his accusers were on other boats at the time and place of some of the incidents.

Was there a two for one sale on weasel words? I notice they came in handy to lubricate the bottom of the goalpost here.