Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[acbytesla]

Has the part of you that is absolutely right picked a likely spot where the knife was thrown? A dumpster, a body of water, etc.?

I can't think of a body of water in that area nor a dumpster. But the thick woods below the cottage would do fine. I know if I went Italy I'd look in that area.

But unless they found Meredith's and Rudy's DNA or fingerprint, I think it wouldoes prove little to the guilters.

 

[Sergei Walankov]

Since when has anyone's career been harmed by "publishing findings that were not true" in relation to this matter?

 

[Sonia]

Since when has anyone's career been harmed by "publishing findings that were not true" in relation to this matter?

John Follain, for one, has been pilloried in print as a tabloid hack who lied and misrepresented facts in his book about the case. He'll never be considered a serious investigative journalist now. Laughing stock is more like it.

Barbie Nadeau has also been called out many times for repeating untruths passed to her by the prosecutors in her books and articles.

Nick Pisa comes to mind as another reporter who prostituted himself by spreading slimy untruths about the Knox/Sollecito case, in the interest of peddling sensationalism for eager tabloid readers. Maybe that's the job description of a UK tabloid hack, but people remember all the lying and his reputation is permanently damaged.

 

[Bill Williams]

Since when has anyone's career been harmed by "publishing findings that were not true" in relation to this matter?

LOL!

Yet as far as someone like Barbie Latza Nadeau is concerned, she has peaked. She'll still pick up piece work from CNN for Italian news, as long as she keeps away from opinionating.

Still.... as mentioned on another service.... why is it we hear nothing from Nadeau about her influence on Winterbottom's "The Face of an Angel"?

Reason #1 might be that the film, based on her book, was a complete flop.

Reason #2 might also be that in the film, taken from her book, Winterbottom makes her out to be a complete slut and incompetent journalist.

Other than that, Nadeau did get to pal around with Kate Beckinsale in Florence during filming. So not a total loss.

 

[Bill Williams]

John Follain, for one, has been pilloried in print as a tabloid hack who lied and misrepresented facts in his book about the case. He'll never be considered a serious investigative journalist now. Laughing stock is more like it.

Barbie Nadeau has also been called out many times for repeating untruths passed to her by the prosecutors in her books and articles.

Nick Pisa comes to mind as another reporter who prostituted himself by spreading slimy untruths about the Knox/Sollecito case, in the interest of peddling sensationalism for eager tabloid readers. Maybe that's the job description of a UK tabloid hack, but people remember all the lying and his reputation is permanently damaged.

What is interesting is that An-DREY-A Vogt doesn't even rise enough to the completely slimey list represented by these hacks. What's the category below slimey?

My guess is tha now John Follain wishes he never wrote his book. My regret is I paid full price for it. My bad.

 

[Grinder]

Since when has anyone's career been harmed by "publishing findings that were not true" in relation to this matter?

 

[Grinder]

Possible therefore probable? What? Why would an investigative writer risk her entire reputation by publishing findings that were not true? Any of the sources interviewed by Burleigh (or their attorneys) would have checked her published accounts of their interviews, and they would surely have gone to the press if Burleigh had exaggerated or misrepresented their words for millions to read.

That refers to an old refrain about Massei and Italian legal thinking on the same line as three compatibles in Italy equals a match.
Exactly who was going to check her facts? When one here tried to verify the Diaz story, she spewed about guilters and provided nothing. No one to date has even verified the existence of Diaz much less the burning of the house and even less any connection with Rudi.

Nina wrote a True Crime NOVEL a genre that allows for fictional enhancements.

Interesting that you think that Follain's editors allowed him to embarrass himself. Btw, all the people you named remain journalists writing for mainstream media though Pisa mostly tabs.

The only way "independent corroboration" could be produced would be if another investigator took the initiative to travel to Perugia, re-interview the people Burleigh interviewed, re-examine the documents she examined, and report back on what he finds. What other independent corroboration could possibly exist? However, no publisher would be interested in footing the bill for such a junket because the work has already been done and and the results have already been published years ago, by Burleigh. So whoever flies off to Perugia to double-check all Burleigh's research will have to do it at his own expense. Can't you see how absurd this notion is?

So your point is that she didn't need to worry about someone checking her work. I agree.

Now on the other hand people were writing books and making movies and yet no one, to my knowledge, picked up the juicy fire story. Can't you see how absurd that is?

All her sources were/are readily available FOR YEARS to anybody who wished/wishes to phone them up or go and see them. Local journalists, especially, could have pressed her sources if they doubted her accounts. Local reporters/bloggers never bothered. Considering the jackal-like pursuit of trivia about the case by the press during the last eight years, the absence of any "independent NON-corroboration" speaks to the accuracy of Burleigh's reporting.

Since her book came out well after most of the jackals had gone back to their dens and her book really wasn't that big of a deal, as you pointed out, why would someone bother to go after her?

I'm sure that many PIP have looked for the Diaz information but as of today, nothing. One PIP actually thought she was tweeting but it turned out to be a person in Mexico IIRC.

Why do you doubt other journalists? Are you saying they made up stuff or just made mistakes. Btw, Bill W used to use Follain for conversation in the police station which he couldn't have known unless he has the recordings

All the writers you think were damaged by their writing on this are all doing fine and are being widely published.

 

[Grinder]

What is interesting is that An-DREY-A Vogt doesn't even rise enough to the completely slimey list represented by these hacks. What's the category below slimey?

My guess is tha now John Follain wishes he never wrote his book. My regret is I paid full price for it. My bad.

No your bad was using it as if he had real knowledge of what the PLE were talking about the night of the interrogation.

All TCN writers make stuff up to make the story more of screenplay than a documentary. Barbie made the least stuff up but she bought into the PLE's BS hook line & sinker.

I still wonder what you think Raf was referring to in most recent interviews about what Amanda did that was dumb or whatever word he used. To me he is saying, and has said similar things for years, that it was her behavior not his that caused them to be suspects. I'm specifically interested in what he thinks now not what he wrote 4 years ago. It's not as if he hasn't had time to think about it and prepare answers for the inevitable questions about her.

I ask you because if a Vixen or other PGP brings up the lies or anyone says that the it was reasonable, you often jump with answers. As you know, I think it was reasonable for them to suspect the kids but mostly because of Raf's behavior. IIRC you vehemently disagree, yet when Raf seems to say something similar you demur.

 

[acbytesla]

Since when has anyone's career been harmed by "publishing findings that were not true" in relation to this matter?

I agree. That many of us know that much or what these hacks wrote was false, the rest of the world simply doessn't care.They moved on to other stories long ago. No one is holding their feet to the fire.

 

[acbytesla]

Possible therefore probable? What? Why would an investigative writer risk her entire reputation by publishing findings that were not true? Any of the sources interviewed by Burleigh (or their attorneys) would have checked her published accounts of their interviews, and they would surely have gone to the press if Burleigh had exaggerated or misrepresented their words for millions to read.

That refers to an old refrain about Massei and Italian legal thinking on the same line as three compatibles in Italy equals a match.
Exactly who was going to check her facts? When one here tried to verify the Diaz story, she spewed about guilters and provided nothing. No one to date has even verified the existence of Diaz much less the burning of the house and even less any connection with Rudi.

Nina wrote a True Crime NOVEL a genre that allows for fictional enhancements.

Interesting that you think that Follain's editors allowed him to embarrass himself. Btw, all the people you named remain journalists writing for mainstream media though Pisa mostly tabs.




So your point is that she didn't need to worry about someone checking her work. I agree.

Now on the other hand people were writing books and making movies and yet no one, to my knowledge, picked up the juicy fire story. Can't you see how absurd that is?



Since her book came out well after most of the jackals had gone back to their dens and her book really wasn't that big of a deal, as you pointed out, why would someone bother to go after her?

I'm sure that many PIP have looked for the Diaz information but as of today, nothing. One PIP actually thought she was tweeting but it turned out to be a person in Mexico IIRC.

Why do you doubt other journalists? Are you saying they made up stuff or just made mistakes. Btw, Bill W used to use Follain for conversation in the police station which he couldn't have known unless he has the recordings

All the writers you think were damaged by their writing on this are all doing fine and are being widely published.

i do believe that Ms. Diaz existed and the facts were as Nina portrayed them. That said, most of the writers embellished.

 

[Grinder]

i do believe that Ms. Diaz existed and the facts were as Nina portrayed them. That said, most of the writers embellished.

And you base this belief on what except "Nina wouldn't make anything up" while writing a novel. Don't you think her story would make a great personal interest story? After Nina published why didn't anybody in Perugia (wouldn't cost anything) go interview her and do a special about her?

I have said that I don't really doubt a woman named Diaz lived nearby and had a break-in. What I doubt is that the house was burned so badly that it took three years to repair and the fire-people were able to determine a scarf laid over a lamp caused it. I also find it hard to believe that not one story can be found telling the story at the time. Big fire, dead cat, victimized old woman and no story; isn't that absurd?

Maybe if I say I'm very confident that the story at best is hyperbole that will convince you

 

[Bill Williams]

And you base this belief on what except "Nina wouldn't make anything up" while writing a novel. Don't you think her story would make a great personal interest story? After Nina published why didn't anybody in Perugia (wouldn't cost anything) go interview her and do a special about her?

I have said that I don't really doubt a woman named Diaz lived nearby and had a break-in. What I doubt is that the house was burned so badly that it took three years to repair and the fire-people were able to determine a scarf laid over a lamp caused it. I also find it hard to believe that not one story can be found telling the story at the time. Big fire, dead cat, victimized old woman and no story; isn't that absurd?

Maybe if I say I'm very confident that the story at best is hyperbole that will convince you

It is one thing to have a poor opinion of the true-crime genre, it is quite another to continually misrepresenting it by calling it fiction.

What is interesting is that An-DREY-A Vogt doesn't even rise enough to the completely slimey list represented by these hacks. What's the category below slimey?

My guess is tha now John Follain wishes he never wrote his book. My regret is I paid full price for it. My bad.

No your bad was using it as if he had real knowledge of what the PLE were talking about the night of the interrogation.

All TCN writers make stuff up to make the story more of screenplay than a documentary. Barbie made the least stuff up but she bought into the PLE's BS hook line & sinker.

I do not believe I ever made the claim that he had real knowledge of anything. (I know it will do no good to repeat what I said outside of this agenda to tell people what they REALLY mean.... and keep moving the goalposts without first establishing where the original poster believes the goalposts are!)

What I said was the John Follain found it necessary to construct a narrative in the way he did, including such things as, "Chiacchierra advised Napoleoni and Migini to release the pair and monitor them."

Is that factual? Who knows. There is no second sourcing of it, and given the limitations of the true crime genre it should not be taken as even a first sourcing, really.

Yet as narratives go, why would he include stuff like that? Stuff that works against Follain's over-all theme of RS and AK's guilt, a conclusion he doesn't even deliver on!

It would be a good idea to respond to people at the level at which they claim things, rather than deal with the imposed caricatures which are, essentially, strawmen arguments.

The Grinder-like precision would stick to the distinctions between genres, true-crime vs. novel, rather than making meandering arguments.

 

[acbytesla]

And you base this belief on what except "Nina wouldn't make anything up" while writing a novel. Don't you think her story would make a great personal interest story? After Nina published why didn't anybody in Perugia (wouldn't cost anything) go interview her and do a special about her?

I have said that I don't really doubt a woman named Diaz lived nearby and had a break-in. What I doubt is that the house was burned so badly that it took three years to repair and the fire-people were able to determine a scarf laid over a lamp caused it. I also find it hard to believe that not one story can be found telling the story at the time. Big fire, dead cat, victimized old woman and no story; isn't that absurd?

Maybe if I say I'm very confident that the story at best is hyperbole that will convince you

I believe it because other than from you, I have yet to read it being disputed. that seems highly unlikey to me. There are far too many people in Italy that would know the truth. It would have been disputed. While it wouldn't surprise me that parts of the story is somewhat embelished such as the amount of time it took to repair her home, I do believe there was a burglary on the date reported and I do believe that her mother's watch was stolen. Whether Rudy committed the burglary we will never know.

 

[Bill Williams]

Why do you doubt other journalists? Are you saying they made up stuff or just made mistakes. Btw, Bill W used to use Follain for conversation in the police station which he couldn't have known unless he has the recordings

All the writers you think were damaged by their writing on this are all doing fine and are being widely published.

Why? Follain had unparalleled access to the prinicpals on the investigative side of things, as well as the first set of prosecutors, right up to the Massei 2009 trial.

Why does it need to be: which he couldn't have known unless he has the recordings??

As for what Follain knows or doesn't know.... one first needs to ask him his source.

 

[Grinder]

I believe it because other than from you, I have yet to read it being disputed. that seems highly unlikey to me. There are far too many people in Italy that would know the truth. It would have been disputed. While it wouldn't surprise me that parts of the story is somewhat embelished such as the amount of time it took to repair her home, I do believe there was a burglary on the date reported and I do believe that her mother's watch was stolen. Whether Rudy committed the burglary we will never know.

Tesla that's like the PGP insisting that the kids prove their innocence. basically as you said very few people pay attention at all and fewer still to details in a fairly obscure book written in English. Interesting that something meaningless totally is the only part that you think is embellished.

Please explain why no newspaper story can be found telling this human interest story when it happened. Maybe it did happen and was exaggerated but there is absolutely no evidence that Rudi had anything to do with it. The police confiscated the watch from the nursery and it was never matched to Diaz's mother's alleged watch.

If Barbie, Vogt or Follain wrote something like the above as something against the kids you would not buy it.

 

[Grinder]

It is one thing to have a poor opinion of the true-crime genre, it is quite another to continually misrepresenting it by calling it fiction.

Novel = Fiction

nov·el1
ˈnävəl/Submit
noun
a fictitious prose narrative of book length, typically representing character and action with some degree of realism.

I do not believe I ever made the claim that he had real knowledge of anything.

As it was, acc. to John Follain, Marco Chiacchierra did not think that even had produce enought to justify an arrest of anyone.

If Napoleoni and Mignini had listened to Chiacchierra that night, the Kerchers would have eventually got their answer to who killed their kin, and you (Macchiavelli) would not have to be writing the stuff you write five 1/2 years later to justify the unjustifiable.

Sounds like you thought he had real knowledge.

 

[Bill Williams]

Novel = Fiction

nov·el1
ˈnävəl/Submit
noun
a fictitious prose narrative of book length, typically representing character and action with some degree of realism.







Sounds like you once thought he had real knowledge.

There, I fixed it for you.

 

[acbytesla]

Tesla that's like the PGP insisting that the kids prove their innocence. basically as you said very few people pay attention at all and fewer still to details in a fairly obscure book written in English. Interesting that something meaningless totally is the only part that you think is embellished.

Please explain why no newspaper story can be found telling this human interest story when it happened. Maybe it did happen and was exaggerated but there is absolutely no evidence that Rudi had anything to do with it. The police confiscated the watch from the nursery and it was never matched to Diaz's mother's alleged watch.

If Barbie, Vogt or Follain wrote something like the above as something against the kids you would not buy it.

No its not. This was not evidence in the court, nor should it have been. There is no proof that Rudy was responsible for that burglary. I also wouldn't blame a judge for not allowing it. It is speculation that Rudy committed this burglary. Not much more.

That said, it is not unusual for a fledgling burglar to commit his crimes near his home. I do believe that Rudy committed this burglary, but this is by no means proof.

As for there not being newspaper article, who's to say? Maybe there was one but it wasn't printed online. Maybe we just can't find it. Lots of things were printed that I can no longer find.

i hesitate to call Nina a liar as you seem eager to do.

 

[Grinder]

No its not. This was not evidence in the court, nor should it have been. There is no proof that Rudy was responsible for that burglary. I also wouldn't blame a judge for not allowing it. It is speculation that Rudy committed this burglary. Not much more.

That said, it is not unusual for a fledgling burglar to commit his crimes near his home. I do believe that Rudy committed this burglary, but this is by no means proof.

As for there not being newspaper article, who's to say? Maybe there was one but it wasn't printed online. Maybe we just can't find it. Lots of things were printed that I can no longer find.

i hesitate to call Nina a liar as you seem eager to do.

First of all I have not called her a liar. You don't hesitate using the term, however. The only lie would have been in her correspondence with you as you reported it.

The genre does not require truth or footnotes. My point is that using a TCN as a source for facts is a mistake without corroboration. That goes for all of them.

 

[Bill Williams]

First of all I have not called her a liar. You don't hesitate using the term, however. The only lie would have been in her correspondence with you as you reported it.

The genre does not require truth or footnotes. My point is that using a TCN as a source for facts is a mistake without corroboration. That goes for all of them.

Can you name a genre which "requires" truth?

Or put another way, there is not a genre out there which would say it does not.

I get suckered into this non sequitor pointless discussion every time.

At one point you say that thTCN genre does not require truth. Then you claim you've not called Burleigh (or any of them) a liar.

It's really hard to know the point being made, other than you think you're right and everyone else wrong regardless.

Hoots!