'The Third Intifada has already begun'

[Ziggurat]

Yeah....whatever. If you want to make excuses for Israel stealing people's land and then brutalizing them - then go ahead. Just don't try to blame the victims as Israel slowly walls them into bantustans - it's very unbecoming.

Let's talk about victims, then. Who in this video is the victim? Who is the perpetrator?

 

[Jules Galen]

Let's talk about victims, then. Who in this video is the victim? Who is the perpetrator?

It's a nice cycle the Israelis got going with the Palestinians: steal their land, wall then in, drive them crazy - and then blame them for the pathology - and then repeat the cycle.

Seriously, quit blaming the victims! The added insult to injury only makes it worse.

Also, please quit claiming that there is no solution - BS! Israel was perfectly willing to let the UN Peacekeepers help keep peace with the Hezbollah after the 2006 War. And, if Israel would move back to the 1967 Borders and use UN Peacekeepers - then, problem solved with the Palestinians, too! But Israel won't do that - because they don't have to negotiate with the Palestinians, because the Palestinians are weak and can be kicked around with impunity. Whereas Israel found Hezbollah too much to handle on their own and so they went and got help.

And this is the really sad part. When you compare the respect that the Israelis have for Hezbollah to the impunity with which they brutalize the Palestinians, then one constant quickly comes to the foreground: Israel doesn't understand anything but force.

Sad for Israel...really sad. And the future for Israel and the Palestinians looks even darker. The Israelis have pretty-much gutted the ability of the Palestinians to wage an armed conflict, and the Palestinians are now so hopeless - so crazed with despair - that they can't figure out how to really wage war any other way. As a result, it looks like it could be an endless cycle of stealing and stomping that the Palestinians have in store for themselves broken only by the short periods where the Palestinians are made to take the blame for their suffering.

 

[Meed]

No, it's not ethical behavior.

I consider occupation to be unethical behavior. You seem disagree. I'm not sure there's nuch more to be said at this point. Unless you'd like to articulate why you think occupation is ethical (or ethically neutral).

It enables and rewards unethical behavior on the part of the Palestinian leadership. Make no mistake, the misery of the Palestinian people is a direct and intentional result of the choices of that Palestinian leadership.

The choice to occupy or not occupy is in the hands of the Israeli leadership. That is what we're talking about.

Their current status is dependent upon the constant immiseration of the population. That will not end with the end of an occupation. All that will do is give that leadership a free hand to arm itself for continued hostilities, which will hurt Israel and the Palestinians. We've already seen the pattern with Israel's withdrawl from Gaza. A withdrawl from the West Bank would be no different. Before the Gaza withdrawl, one could justify believing otherwise, but it's simply not possible anymore.

It's certianly possible that Palestinians will continue to suffer without being occupied, but I'm not following how that somehow justifies the occupation. Not to mention the continual moves toward expansion.

 

[Jules Galen]

...That will not end with the end of an occupation. All that will do is give that leadership a free hand to arm itself for continued hostilities, which will hurt Israel and the Palestinians. We've already seen the pattern with Israel's withdrawl from Gaza. A withdrawl from the West Bank would be no different. Before the Gaza withdrawl, one could justify believing otherwise, but it's simply not possible anymore.

Who told you that Gaza is no longer occupied by the Israelis?

Seeing that Israel controls all border crossings to Gaza, has utter control of all Gaza Airspace and Coastline and even has designated Free-fire zones in Gaza where any Palestinian seen may be shot - I find it hard to say Gaza in "Unoccupied". Jeez....the people in Gaza can't even get their mail unless it goes through Israel.

Additionally, Israel exerts Military Control over the Palestinian Population Registry - which determines who is recognized as a Palestinian resident for the purpose of travel permits. Palestinian passports are issued by the Palestinian Authority only to residents who are listed in the Israeli-administered population registry.

In short, Palestinians can not travel into or out of GAZA without Israel's Permission.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2012/02/05/israel-end-restrictions-palestinian-residency

As the former South African Prime Minister P. W. Botha might say: "Gee...I don't know why those Blacks are so angry, I mean it's not like we are occupying their Bantustans or anything!"

Now...please tell us again how how Israel ended its occupation of Gaza?

 

[McHrozni]

And, if Israel would move back to the 1967 Borders and use UN Peacekeepers - then, problem solved with the Palestinians, too!

Evidence? To the best of my knowledge no Palestinian Authority, much less Hamas, has ever agreed to anything of the sort.

McHrozni

 

[Jules Galen]

Evidence? To the best of my knowledge no Palestinian Authority, much less Hamas, has ever agreed to anything of the sort.

McHrozni

Evidence? The Evidence is the 2006 War with Hezbollah where Israel was only too happy to let the UN help Keep Peace with an enemy (Hezbollah) that they could not defeat with impunity. And Hezbollah is a nightmare enemy - an enemy with a world-wide reputation for being the baddest dudes since the Viet Cong.

On the other hand, The Palestinians have been militarily defeated - utterly - and are occupied and treated with contempt by Israel. So there is no reason to think the UN Peacekeepers would have any problem there considering that they can handle Hezbollah. And...NO...Hamas and the PA don't need to authorize anything (they don't really control anything anyways). I don't remember any of the former Balkan republics authorizing UN Peacekeepers and that worked out.

Thus...PEACE is possible any time Israel wants it, and it's time for Israel to show us that they want that Peace.

 

[McHrozni]

Thus...PEACE is possible any time Israel wants it, and it's time for Israel to show us that they want that Peace.

You misunderstand. Before we can discuss your proposal at all you need to provide evidence Israel would be left in peace if it retreated to 1967 borders. You can start with explaining the Hamas charter, articles 13, 14 and 15 and how they would be ignored and why. Explain also article 31.

For your convenience, here's the link:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

Please provide solid evidence Hamas would be willing to forego their founding document in exchange for peace. Without it your proposal has no value whatsoever.

McHrozni

 

[Jules Galen]

You misunderstand. Before we can discuss your proposal at all you need to provide evidence Israel would be left in peace if it retreated to 1967 borders. You can start with explaining the Hamas charter, articles 13, 14 and 15 and how they would be ignored and why. Explain also article 31.

That argument is like a squid spurting ink: it's does nothing but obfuscate the issue.

In the posts above, I think I've pretty well made the case that if the Palestinians were as powerful as Hezbollah, Israel would waste no time giving back that land and making Peace. But the Palestinians are weak - so Israel can keep Bullying the Palestinians with contempt and stealing their land.

 

[McHrozni]

That argument is like a squid spurting ink: it's does nothing but obfuscate the issue.

Actually it's the other way around, this IS the issue. Palestinian organizations are unwilling to compromise. Their people have been brainwashed into supporting them, which is even endorsed in their founding statements. Why do you ignore it?

In the posts above, I think I've pretty well made the case that if the Palestinians were as powerful as Hezbollah, Israel would waste no time giving back that land and making Peace. But the Palestinians are weak - so Israel can keep Bullying the Palestinians with contempt and stealing their land.

Please show me a Palestinian proposal that offers peace in exchange for land. I can offer you plentiful Israeli proposals, including some who were accepted and worked - just not with Palestinians. Can you show one Palestinian?

McHrozni

 

[Jules Galen]

Actually it's the other way around, this IS the issue....

No....it isn't. Israel Stealing Land and Bullying Palestinians is the issue.

However, you seem to want to ignore that, so I seriously don't want to have anything to do with you.

I'm going to try to put you on ignore. Nevertheless, Please leave me alone.

 

[McHrozni]

No....it isn't. Israel Stealing Land and Bullying Palestinians is the issue.

I was under the impression the issue is peace in the Middle East.

You seem to be completely sure your assertion - Palestinians would agree to and uphold a peace in 1967 borders, under UN protection - is correct. Why are you so certain this is correct? Can you point me to a shred of evidence this is correct? I have already pointed plentiful evidence to you that it is actually false, why do you dismiss it?

If you can't provide evidence in favor of your thesis we'll be forced to conclude you're wrong. After all there is nothing in it's favor and plentiful against it, there is no reason at all to assume it is correct.

McHrozni

 

[Aridas]

The 'hiding in civilian areas' becomes very tired when the population has been herded into a tiny area. Gaza has an area comparable to the Isle of Wight and a population density near to London's!

Much less tired when 'hiding in civilian areas' is used to also refer to a number of other, related breaches of the laws of war that they continue to commit. Fuelair's noted a few of them, it looks like.

Either way, the Arabs having another Intifada will very likely end up causing dramatically more suffering and death for the Palestinians, which is quite sad, and likely worsen things for the living, yet again, in multiple ways. Just like has happened over and over before.

So how many Israeli children have died as a result of the conflict recently?

And this would matter... how? It's not like there's pretty much anyone here who's at all happen to hear about either the death of Palestinian children or the death of Israeli children. Nor do the raw numbers of casualties and deaths speak for themselves, strange though it may seem to some.

They should end it regardless.

While getting to Ziggurat's why... it's also worth asking what the consequences of that would actually be, given some of the express goals of the Palestinians. If Israel unilaterally ends the occupation, does an easily predicted and likely significant increase in death and destruction on both sides, likely with Israel feeling the need to effectively reinstate the occupation in relatively short order on top of that, actually make that a less ethical choice than continuing an unfortunate occupation until the Palestinians finally give in enough to bring things to a place where an actual peace could be workable? If it's easy to tell that both paths are going to be nasty, how is it not ethical to choose the one that probably involves less nastiness overall? This, of course, is only directed at the continued occupation, and not other Israeli actions, at least for the moment.

Incidentally, I'm not directly talking about the Israelis giving in for a couple reasons. The Israeli have shown their willingness to co-exist with the Palestinians repeatedly, for example, while the Palestinian political parties have fairly consistently refused to accept some basic necessities for that to happen, for starters. Israel's in a position of overwhelming power over the Palestinians, for another, which in the real world translates to them getting more of what they want. More could be added, of course, but those two things are a couple of the very notable issues that those who want Israel to just give up advantages for very limited and rather questionable gains like some vaguely better world opinion of them need to address. Seriously, it's not like many political powers would change their stances much towards Israel.

 

[McHrozni]

Israel's in a position of overwhelming power over the Palestinians, for another, which in the real world translates to them getting more of what they want. More could be added, of course, but those two things are a couple of the very notable issues that those who want Israel to just give up advantages for very limited and rather questionable gains like some vaguely better world opinion of them need to address. Seriously, it's not like many political powers would change their stances much towards Israel.

That's one big issue the Arabs and their supporters will have to swallow if there's to be peace. If Israel is to make concessions, they must do them too. Israel is more than ready to make concessions - it returned Sinai to Egypt in exchange for peace. If Palestinians are unwilling to make concessions no amount of pressure on Israel will improve things, regardless of results.

McHrozni

 

[fagin]

No....it isn't. Israel Stealing Land and Bullying Palestinians is the issue.

However, you seem to want to ignore that, so I seriously don't want to have anything to do with you.

I'm going to try to put you on ignore. Nevertheless, Please leave me alone.

Is that the internet equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and going lalalalalalalaalalalalalalala?

 

[McHrozni]

I ran across an interesting introspection, it's well worth a read.

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/i-am-embarrassed-to-be-an-arab/

A short snippet:

Jerusalem belongs to the Jews, not only because it is rightfully theirs, but also because we don’t deserve any of it. Those of us Arabs who live in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza, would long ago have been deported if Jews behaved like us. Yet we keep pushing and pushing, hoping to break them.

McHrozni

 

[trustbutverify]

That argument is like a squid spurting ink: it's does nothing but obfuscate the issue.

In the posts above, I think I've pretty well made the case that if the Palestinians were as powerful as Hezbollah, Israel would waste no time giving back that land and making Peace. But the Palestinians are weak - so Israel can keep Bullying the Palestinians with contempt and stealing their land.

Why doesn't "powerful" Hezbollah simply join forces with Hamas? Then Israel would waste no time in giving back everything the Palestinians want, right?

 

[trustbutverify]

Already I see both sides setting themselves up as "Victims" so they can justify their attacks and other atrocities - it's a pretty pathological way to wage a war and doesn't do justice to the real victims of the conflict.

Just wait and see. If this plays out as usual and the fighting escalates expect to see a race to victimhood: Palestinians chanting and gleefully holding up the burnt husks of Dead Babies while Israelis are screaming that the world's pathological antisemitism makes them have to defend themselves. Meanwhile - all the bombing, rocketing, stabbing...yada, yada, yada. Nothing but an appeal to pity and murder.

And what if both sides are right?

 

[trustbutverify]

Did they do that? Smart move. The court of public opinion matters so cards like this must be played. It's assymetric warfare between the weak and the strong.

Maybe not the smartest move as far as those being treated inside that hospital. They might not have been aware they'd been drafted as PR cannon fodder while lying helpless in hospital beds.

 

[Jules Galen]

One thing kind of odd about the latest Palestinian Stabbing spree is that it might actually change some Israeli minds and Hearts so-to-speak. I mean, Israel might be able to steal land from the Palestinians while treating them with contempt, but actually enjoying the fruits of a conquest might impossible for them in light of what's happening. Because I think for a long tome a lot of Israelis are going to worry every time they go to the store, or out to eat , or are just walking down the street - they are going to worry about some suicidal maniac coming out of nowhere and ramming a knife into them. I couldn't imagine living like that and would want to do most anything to change the situation!

In America, the gun-nut crowd has this mythical foe known as "Zombies" (which many of them substitute for blacks and Mexicans and such in their twisted little minds). Zombies are also a lot like suicidal maniacs - they attack without provacation and won't stop until you blow them away. But the American Gun-nut crowd is just that - delusional nuts. There are no Zombies n America. On the other hand, in Israel, Zombies seem to be a real thing.

Here's a video of Palestinian Zombies in action. One minute a guy is doing some shopping and about to ride his bike home on a beautiful, sunny day - the next second he's viciously attacked by suicidal Zombies:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTHSGo0zzA4

 

[McHrozni]

One thing kind of odd about the latest Palestinian Stabbing spree is that it might actually change some Israeli minds and Hearts so-to-speak. I mean, Israel might be able to steal land from the Palestinians while treating them with contempt, but actually enjoying the fruits of a conquest might impossible for them in light of what's happening.

Because the stabbing attacks are so much worse than rocket barrages?

In reality no amount of Palestinian war crimes or crimes of different sort will improve their fortunes. Only a major internal reformation followed by a diametrically opposed foreign policy could do that. It's tragic that so many people refuse to acknowledge something this obvious and endorse murder of innocent civilians, as long as they're Jews.

McHrozni