3 students die after principal hypnotizes them

Skeptic Ginger said:
No, it was a pretty amazing observation.


What I especially find entertaining in this thread is, I went over all this stuff years back in a different thread. And here we are all this time later and people are still arguing the old beliefs they picked up about the hypnotic state continuing to resist an effort to bring themselves up to date with current research.
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Where is the current research that suggests being hypnotized leads to suicide?
 
As compared to dental sedation at least.

Actually, about 15% of us have a problem with Benedryl, which is often used for "wakeful sedation". It over reacts on us. The medicos require us to have somebody else drive us home, like a girl friend perhaps? I wonder id there is a concurrent suit against the dentist?
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
No, Scrut stuck his foot in his mouth. I know exactly how it works. And you're right there with him.


You gotta keep, other wise all that stuff you learned decades ago becomes outdated and you find yourself looking as foolish as evolution deniers.
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I am working my way through those links you provided; so far, they are not terribly impressive, but we'll see.

Nevertheless, the argument wasn't whether or not hypnotism is real (though I do doubt it) -- the argument was over your characterization of your observation as "evidence."
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Wrong, because I could explain it.

And again, because people do so like to ignore parts of an argument,


The alternative explanations are less likely.
And there is now more than sufficient evidence documenting the existence of an altered state when a person is under hypnosis.
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You observed behaviors X, Y and Z. You are concluding that these behaviors indicate that hypnosis is real.

I once saw someone overcome with the spirit of the lord in an Appalachian church. So I guess we now have evidence that god is real and spends his time possessing random idiots?
 
Are they sure that it was hypnosis that caused the suicides? Maybe it was heavy metal music, or role-playing games, or video games, or comic books, or any of the other various things that parents have blamed suicide on over the years so they don't have to admit that their child had psychological issues.
Maybe one of these parents will be the next Patricia Pulling and create BAH, Bothered About Hypnosis.
 
Hungry81 said:
If hypnosis actually works it shouldn't matter if someone is introverted or extraverted. Infact if true it just confirms that extraverts are more willing to do things for entertainment that result in more public attention. Big suprise there.
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It's not just a willingness to entertain, since it is often just one on one. My generalization is not 100%, just a trend that I noticed over several years of trying to figure out who would be good subjects.

I also find it interesting that the two advocates for hypnotisim both say that they aren't susceptable to and cant be or haven't been hypnotised.

Face it if hypnotisim worked the way Skeptic Ginger says it does it would be alot more prominant in society.
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Lots of things which are "prominent in society" are not real...like religion, astrology, homeopathy, etc.

I find it interesting too that many people are not susceptible to hypnosis, but it's also possible that a different hypnotist might succeed with them. The operator must be able to dominate the subject in a subtle psychological sense. Many people cannot accept or do not want to allow this.

There are simple techniques such as the use of what some call "Chevreul's Pendulum" for determining whether a subject will respond to hypnotic suggestion, but still this is not 100% predictive of a good subject for a deep trance.

This guy gives a good demonstration and some general detail about hypnosis.



It is a simple demonstration of the ideomotor reflex and has nothing to do with psychic predictions, just a normal response that many but not all people exhibit. You can try it yourself using any small weight or a ring on a thread. Try to hold your hand steady, while imagining the pendulum swinging in a certain direction.

ETA: The ideomotor effect is also of course the mechanism that results in what some believe is the ability to "dowse" for water or just about anything. It is their misunderstanding of the effect which leads them to erroneously believe this to be a supernatural power.
 
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The degree of realness of hypnosis is one thing. "I know hypnosis is real because why would my teenage brother misrepresent something" is a very very nother.

I would not crap on someone for having a well researched opinion on the former; it has lots of woo-ish window dressing that makes everyone's skeptic sense ping like crazy, but it's not impossible to study at all either. Personally I would expect it to be similar to meditation: almost always overstated but still a genuinely useful/interesting thing for the right people in the right circumstances - easily faked - and of course worse than useless when used for something it's not actually good for.

"I think hypnosis is real because I saw this thing my teenage brother did and he didn't fake it; why would he fake it" on the other hand has got to be very nearly the most ridiculous thing one can say on a skeptic discussion board.

"I'm interested in hypnosis because I saw this thing my brother did and it was very convincing to me" is, IMO, the more sensible thing to say in a place like this.
 
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Caper said:
When I was in grade 7 there was a hypnotist show at our school. Same deal 20 or 30 people went on stage, including me. About 20 of us stayed under, including me. I faked the whole god dam thing. It was horrible. I had to spend like an hour on stage pretending to be hypnotized. Doing all this stupid crap that just wouldn't end.
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We had the same style of stage who when I was in Grade 10 in high school, always a skeptic I wondered how it would pan out.

as I remeber 18 or 20 or so kids were chosen "at random" to participate .... 4 or 5 kids were shown the steps when they did not immediately "fall asleep" when told to.

Of the rest that were allowed to stay ... 80% I noted were the "cool kids" from drama class.
 
Of the rest that were allowed to stay ... 80% I noted were the "cool kids" from drama class.
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Not atypical nor surprising. In a clinical setting it may take hours to achieve a trance, but subjects are selected for their ease of entering a trance when in stage setting.

One must at least be able to relate well to imagery, be at ease or relaxed (if on stage) in a public setting, and to some extent not be self conscious in relating to another person. Hypnosis is a very intimate experience for most. Outgoing personalities are quite often the best subjects. Being a shy and fearful person can make for a difficulty in easily hypnotizing a subject. But this does not establish or even suggest that everyone is faking it by any means, nor does a person's reporting to friends that he was faking it all the while. Most people are quite rightly amazed by the experience. Choosing subjects "at random" from an audience is not a very good approach.

You must have been quite impressed to have remembered this amount of detail from 10th grade.
 
I certainly wasn't faking it, I had no reason to.
while I would describe myself as a fairly confident extravert, I am also An extremely sceptical person, and a control freak.
I wouldn't have suspected they made for the ideal combination.
note, there is not enough money in the world to make me willing to cluck like a chicken....
 
Olowkow said:
You must have been quite impressed to have remembered this amount of detail from 10th grade.
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Disappointed is a better term ... you miss the point ... the kids were hand selected to participate "randomly" .... and they were acting.
 
Olowkow said:
Not atypical nor surprising. In a clinical setting it may take hours to achieve a trance, but subjects are selected for their ease of entering a trance when in stage setting.

One must at least be able to relate well to imagery, be at ease or relaxed (if on stage) in a public setting, and to some extent not be self conscious in relating to another person. Hypnosis is a very intimate experience for most. Outgoing personalities are quite often the best subjects. Being a shy and fearful person can make for a difficulty in easily hypnotizing a subject. But this does not establish or even suggest that everyone is faking it by any means, nor does a person's reporting to friends that he was faking it all the while. Most people are quite rightly amazed by the experience. Choosing subjects "at random" from an audience is not a very good approach.

You must have been quite impressed to have remembered this amount of detail from 10th grade.
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hmmm, isn't there usually a lead in speech by the hypnotist telling the volunteers that hypnosis is relaxing? Maybe some of the motivation is "I'm nervous here on stage. I can go into a relaxing trance."
 
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Yeggster said:
Disappointed is a better term ... you miss the point ... the kids were hand selected to participate "randomly" .... and they were acting.
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Sorry. I'm still not getting what you are trying to say here.
 
mikado said:
as a personal level experience, with a zilch value, I am a bit of a control freak, and found it very easy to be hypnotised.
it was a positive experience for me, and I must confess to being astounded as to how 'easily' I became hypnotised.
it wasn't at all what I expected.
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mikado said:
I certainly wasn't faking it, I had no reason to.
while I would describe myself as a fairly confident extravert, I am also An extremely sceptical person, and a control freak.
I wouldn't have suspected they made for the ideal combination.
note, there is not enough money in the world to make me willing to cluck like a chicken....
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You are very fortunate to be able to be hypnotized so easily. Hopefully, you have discovered self-hypnosis. It can come in very handy in the dentist's office.:D
 
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