Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[anglolawyer]

Sperm Whale
[qimg]http://thumbs.media.smithsonianmag.com//filer/Sperm-Whales-631.jpg__800x600_q85_crop.jpg[/qimg]

ETA - You had asked

I am playing Grinder's 'goes without saying card'. It goes without saying that my question was context-dependant and that I could not be understood to be asking for a treatise on spermatozoa in the animal kingdom, given the extremely low probability that the stain was left by a whale, yak, Patagonian penguin or other non-hominid.

Lurkers will now be treated to three pages of discussion of this important topic. Mods, please stand well back as Grinder and I go toe to toe for the next couple of weeks.

 

[katy_did]

The point is, if it was his semen then it means he was engaged with Meredith far longer than just some quick touchie-feely before running off to the bathroom. It would prove he disabled Meredith sufficiently to open his pants and masturbate without her fighting back. It puts him at the end of the assault.

Personally I'm dubious both about it being semen and about it being Guede's (as Grinder says, if it is his it's strange and uncharacteristic that not only did he not make up something to explain it, he explicitly denies that it's his).

But even if both those things are true, isn't the problem with your theory about "the end of the assault" that the sequence had to be: semen gets on pillow > Guede steps in it > Meredith placed on pillow? He couldn't step in it after she was lying on top of it, so it had to have gotten onto the pillow earlier.

 

[Annella]

Personally I'm dubious both about it being semen and about it being Guede's (as Grinder says, if it is his it's strange and uncharacteristic that not only did he not make up something to explain it, he explicitly denies that it's his).

But even if both those things are true, isn't the problem with your theory about "the end of the assault" that the sequence had to be: semen gets on pillow > Guede steps in it > Meredith placed on pillow? He couldn't step in it after she was lying on top of it, so it had to have gotten onto the pillow earlier.

I have a sneaking suspicion/recollection that Guede denied it was his AFTER request for testing was turned down. Why further incriminate himself when prosecution and/or Judge could take away that 'deal breaker' as per all the other wee breaks he got via same route!

 

[carbonjam72]

I have a sneaking suspicion/recollection that Guede denied it was his AFTER request for testing was turned down. Why further incriminate himself when prosecution and/or Judge could take away that 'deal breaker' as per all the other wee breaks he got via same route!

IIRC, Guede denied the 'presumed sperm sample' (per Stefanoni) was his in the recorded skype call with his friend, before his arrest.

 

[Grinder]

I am playing Grinder's 'goes without saying card'. It goes without saying that my question was context-dependant and that I could not be understood to be asking for a treatise on spermatozoa in the animal kingdom, given the extremely low probability that the stain was left by a whale, yak, Patagonian penguin or other non-hominid.

Lurkers will now be treated to three pages of discussion of this important topic. Mods, please stand well back as Grinder and I go toe to toe for the next couple of weeks.

I'll take you on in another better gauged venue.

 

[Grinder]

I have a sneaking suspicion/recollection that Guede denied it was his AFTER request for testing was turned down. Why further incriminate himself when prosecution and/or Judge could take away that 'deal breaker' as per all the other wee breaks he got via same route!

Not how it happened. He denied vehemently to his friend on the Skype call that the reported semen was his. He was still free and in Germany. This is when the restroom, kabob, blond Italian (left handed?), date with Meredith etc. story was first told.

 

[Grinder]

Personally I'm dubious both about it being semen and about it being Guede's (as Grinder says, if it is his it's strange and uncharacteristic that not only did he not make up something to explain it, he explicitly denies that it's his).

But even if both those things are true, isn't the problem with your theory about "the end of the assault" that the sequence had to be: semen gets on pillow > Guede steps in it > Meredith placed on pillow? He couldn't step in it after she was lying on top of it, so it had to have gotten onto the pillow earlier.

Your reconstruction makes sense. I must confess I don't get into the detail of the sequence of the murder both because I don't see it helping much in analysis and because it is disgusting.

You may well be right that it is some other sort of stain and I should use quotes around "semen". I'm convinced that Rudi would have made up a story to cover the media reporting. I'm sure he's convinced it wasn't his semen.

If they tested it, I see no reason to hide the results unless it came from another person other than the known players. They certainly would have let us know it was Raf's.

If it was another man's then it would made a whale of difference in the case.

 

[Annella]

Not how it happened. He denied vehemently to his friend on the Skype call that the reported semen was his. He was still free and in Germany. This is when the restroom, kabob, blond Italian (left handed?), date with Meredith etc. story was first told.

Thank you and also to CarbonJam. I now recall the skype convo and stand well and truly corrected.

 

[Strozzi]

IIRC, Guede denied the 'presumed sperm sample' (per Stefanoni) was his in the recorded skype call with his friend, before his arrest.

Many men will find it difficult to discuss such an intimate and delicate subject as leaving semen on someone's pillow or floor. Readers here suggest there is a dichotomy between Rudi thinking up and providing explanations to explain away and cover for his true acts, and then denying in his Skype call that he left sperm in the room. It is one thing to say I was in her room because we had a date, or you may find evidence of me in Filomena's room but that is because I heard someone outside and ran to the window. It is quite another thing to admit to leaving his semen on the pillow, even if true. Leaving it there is beyond the pale and I am not surprised that Rudi denies it and stonewalls, rather than admit it and try to explain it away. Even attackers like Rudi have personal boundaries and a sense of dignity to protect.

If I were accused of playing with myself on the bus, although possibly true I would deny it even if the lady sitting next to me is a stranger. . I have dignity to uphold.

 

[carbonjam72]

Many men will find it difficult to discuss such an intimate and delicate subject as leaving semen on someone's pillow or floor. Readers here suggest there is a dichotomy between Rudi thinking up and providing explanations to explain away and cover for his true acts, and then denying in his Skype call that he left sperm in the room. It is one thing to say I was in her room because we had a date, or you may find evidence of me in Filomena's room but that is because I heard someone outside and ran to the window. Admitting to leaving his semen on the pillow is beyond the pale and I am not surprised that Rudi denies it and stonewalls, rather than admit it and try to explain it away. Even attackers like Rudi have personal boundaries and a sense of dignity to protect.

If I were accused of playing with myself on the bus, although possibly true I would deny it even if the lady sitting next to me is a stranger. . I have dignity to uphold.

Not only that, but those who have suggested it was left by an accomplice, must believe it was shot from the doorway, so as to avoid leaving footprints in Meredith's wet blood, along with Rudy. Embarrassing, maybe. But also pretty good aim, to shoot right between Meredith's legs from the hallway, it must be admitted.

 

[Strozzi]

Your reconstruction makes sense. I must confess I don't get into the detail of the sequence of the murder both because I don't see it helping much in analysis and because it is disgusting.

You may well be right that it is some other sort of stain and I should use quotes around "semen". I'm convinced that Rudi would have made up a story to cover the media reporting. I'm sure he's convinced it wasn't his semen.

If they tested it, I see no reason to hide the results unless it came from another person other than the known players. They certainly would have let us know it was Raf's.

If it was another man's then it would made a whale of difference in the case.

I see an important reason for the prosecution and police to conceal that the semen is Rudi's. It is disgusting conduct that turns anger and accusation towards Rudi, and weakens the prosecution case against the two defendants they are trying to place at the core of the case. The prosecution is letting Rudi hide from this aspect of his conduct, in order to convict the two that they need to convict.

 

[Grinder]

Many men will find it difficult to discuss such an intimate and delicate subject as leaving semen on someone's pillow or floor. Readers here suggest there is a dichotomy between Rudi thinking up and providing explanations to explain away and cover for his true acts, and then denying in his Skype call that he left sperm in the room. It is one thing to say I was in her room because we had a date, or you may find evidence of me in Filomena's room but that is because I heard someone outside and ran to the window. It is quite another thing to admit to leaving his semen on the pillow, even if true. Leaving it there is beyond the pale and I am not surprised that Rudi denies it and stonewalls, rather than admit it and try to explain it away. Even attackers like Rudi have personal boundaries and a sense of dignity to protect.

If I were accused of playing with myself on the bus, although possibly true I would deny it even if the lady sitting next to me is a stranger. . I have dignity to uphold.

I doubt we'll ever know but he in fact discussed her throat being slashed and unable to speak clearly saying AF or something like that. He had already admitted to fooling around with her. And this was with his buddy, a couple of guys so I just don't think he'd be that concerned. I think we've got some conversations of Rudi with the downstairs boys where he is open about sex etc. While I wouldn't feel like a speared whale if it turned out to be his at this point we have circumstantial evidence that it isn't his.

I'd recommend not playing with yourself on the bus.

I see an important reason for the prosecution and police to conceal that the semen is Rudi's. It is disgusting conduct that turns anger and accusation towards Rudi, and weakens the prosecution case against the two defendants they are trying to place at the core of the case. The prosecution is letting Rudi hide from this aspect of his conduct, in order to convict the two that they need to convict.

Why is it disgusting conduct? He was fooling around with her and came a little. If the idea is he did this after the stabbing, I think fingering her was disgusting enough. They should have covered up the DNA in her, if your point is correct.

 

[JREF2010]

I see an important reason for the prosecution and police to conceal that the semen is Rudi's. It is disgusting conduct that turns anger and accusation towards Rudi, and weakens the prosecution case against the two defendants they are trying to place at the core of the case. The prosecution is letting Rudi hide from this aspect of his conduct, in order to convict the two that they need to convict.

interesting perspective, I always thought it was too unbelievable they didnt test it to nail Raffaelle...but what if it was an "unknown" then the Migninni cult would have to create yet another scenario and sell it to the media and courts.

whats the status on Migninnis book deal?

 

[Grinder]

interesting perspective, I always thought it was too unbelievable they didnt test it to nail Raffaelle...but what if it was an "unknown" then the Migninni cult would have to create yet another scenario and sell it to the media and courts.

whats the status on Migninnis book deal?

It has always been hugely amazing that it wasn't tested. Massei said that there was no reason to test it because it wasn't crucial. Mach argued about this strenuously. Massei added that DNA couldn't be dated not withstanding the shoe print.

I'm sure all will agree that if it had been tested and was Raf's that would have been broadcast. We know it wasn't Raf's. Given the weirdness of the Italians it is conceivable that it was Giacomo's and they didn't want to tarnish Meredith's memory.

It is also certain that if it matched no one they knew they would not have released that information and would have made certain that no one would test it (again).

It should still be tested and by now it would be okay to destroy the shoe print, one would think.

 

[Strozzi]

It has always been hugely amazing that it wasn't tested. Massei said that there was no reason to test it because it wasn't crucial. Mach argued about this strenuously. Massei added that DNA couldn't be dated not withstanding the shoe print.

I'm sure all will agree that if it had been tested and was Raf's that would have been broadcast. We know it wasn't Raf's. Given the weirdness of the Italians it is conceivable that it was Giacomo's and they didn't want to tarnish Meredith's memory.

It is also certain that if it matched no one they knew they would not have released that information and would have made certain that no one would test it (again).

It should still be tested and by now it would be okay to destroy the shoe print, one would think.

Could Raffaele file some sort of legal action that would directly or indirectly require that the sample be tested? Perhaps sue Stefanoni for withholding or destroying evidence that might have exonerated him early on. Perhaps a suit for damages for imprisonment could include the demand that all evidence processing records be disclosed.

 

[Grinder]

Could Raffaele file some sort of legal action that would directly or indirectly require that the sample be tested? Perhaps sue Stefanoni for withholding or destroying evidence that might have exonerated him early on. Perhaps a suit for damages for imprisonment could include the demand that all evidence processing records be disclosed.

I'm sure some with incites into Italian law will let us know. Well I'm sure that some sort of suit could be filed whether it would be successful or not of course is the real question.

I can imagine even at this late date that there would be concern of the honesty of the test or if the cloth has been kept secure.

What we need is a plan the break through PLE garage security and recover the pillow case and send half to lab in a neutral country such as Switzerland.

We need a leader that can think several weeks moves ahead and can smell a rotten copper a block away. Then we can publish a peer reviewed article in Ground Report and case will be changed. Though I don't think it would have impacted the trial, I do think that the media at this stage will impact public thinking on this.

 

[Vixen]

Could Raffaele file some sort of legal action that would directly or indirectly require that the sample be tested? Perhaps sue Stefanoni for withholding or destroying evidence that might have exonerated him early on. Perhaps a suit for damages for imprisonment could include the demand that all evidence processing records be disclosed.

Heheh, I should think that's the last thing he wants. The post closed-stable-door application to Nencini was obviously a bluff.

 

[Vixen]

Many men will find it difficult to discuss such an intimate and delicate subject as leaving semen on someone's pillow or floor. Readers here suggest there is a dichotomy between Rudi thinking up and providing explanations to explain away and cover for his true acts, and then denying in his Skype call that he left sperm in the room. It is one thing to say I was in her room because we had a date, or you may find evidence of me in Filomena's room but that is because I heard someone outside and ran to the window. It is quite another thing to admit to leaving his semen on the pillow, even if true. Leaving it there is beyond the pale and I am not surprised that Rudi denies it and stonewalls, rather than admit it and try to explain it away. Even attackers like Rudi have personal boundaries and a sense of dignity to protect.

If I were accused of playing with myself on the bus, although possibly true I would deny it even if the lady sitting next to me is a stranger. . I have dignity to uphold.

Don't do it on a London bus as you'd be on cctv.

 

[Vixen]

I'm sure some with incites into Italian law will let us know. Well I'm sure that some sort of suit could be filed whether it would be successful or not of course is the real question.

I can imagine even at this late date that there would be concern of the honesty of the test or if the cloth has been kept secure.

What we need is a plan the break through PLE garage security and recover the pillow case and send half to lab in a neutral country such as Switzerland.

We need a leader that can think several weeks moves ahead and can smell a rotten copper a block away. Then we can publish a peer reviewed article in Ground Report and case will be changed. Though I don't think it would have impacted the trial, I do think that the media at this stage will impact public thinking on this.

You'd also need DNA profiles of possible culprits. Think about it. If it matched Raff, you guys would start arguing, so what, Amanda lived there and Raff made out with her on that pillow.

 

[Grinder]

You'd also need DNA profiles of possible culprits. Think about it. If it matched Raff, you guys would start arguing, so what, Amanda lived there and Raff made out with her on that pillow.

One of the few times you make half a point correctly. Many here would make a silly argument (if she was caught on video at Q's it would have just meant she forgot she had been there) but the chance that it is Raf's is zero. If it came up pure Raf and was done by Steffi no one should believe it.

There is no reason why they need to match the DNA. If the DNA didn't match Rudi or Giacomo then the prosecution would have some splayin' to do. Clearly at a minimum the Italian justice system would look like a total joke again for not having tested it during one of the trials.

IIRC some general information about the donors heritage would be known from the DNA. If it was Albanian,...