Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Numbers]

Not at all.



Nope.



Are there test results on the downstairs blood? I know this was a hot topic a month ago.

The case against Amanda centered around her false accusation of Patrick. The knife DNA was the major forensic (hard) circumstantial evdience against her. The bra clasp serving the same function for Raf. In addition they had experts stating that the footprints were compatible with the kids. They have the kids lying about their alibi because Curatolo saw them and they have Quintavalle undoing the morning story. In addition they have the phones turned off and lies about daddy's call coming in. (Didn't the defense have a theory that the cat turned on Raf's phone? - those Italian cats).

While most every piece of the above is bogus, the courts bought into all of it and Rudi's semen or blood downstairs wouldn't have changed a thing.

ETA - the shoe print may well prove again that Rudi was there but it doesn't prove it was his semen. It could have been the third man's and if so would have satisfied Locard.

The case would have been damaged or demolished to an objective observer, and perhaps to some Italian judges. I have no doubt that the Massei court or the Nencini court would be likely to convict someone on any arbitrary basis suggested by the prosecution. That some Italian courts arbitrarily support findings of guilt based on unproven prosecution allegations appears to be a defect in the Italian judicial system left over from the inquisitional system.

 

[Grinder]

The case would have been damaged or demolished to an objective observer, and perhaps to some Italian judges. I have no doubt that the Massei court or the Nencini court would be likely to convict someone on any arbitrary basis suggested by the prosecution. That some Italian courts arbitrarily support findings of guilt based on unproven prosecution allegations appears to be a defect in the Italian judicial system left over from the inquisitional system.

If they had tested the stain and it was Rudi's, it wouldn't have changed anything. No one on the prosecution contended that Raf had had sex with Meredith or left the deposit.

While I clearly see the defects in so much of the "investigation", the courts obviously didn't. Now had the stain come up with a match to none of the players including Giacomo THAT would have undone the logic of the kids having to be the accomplices.

 

[Bill Williams]

The case would have been damaged or demolished to an objective observer, and perhaps to some Italian judges. I have no doubt that the Massei court or the Nencini court would be likely to convict someone on any arbitrary basis suggested by the prosecution. That some Italian courts arbitrarily support findings of guilt based on unproven prosecution allegations appears to be a defect in the Italian judicial system left over from the inquisitional system.

If they had tested the stain and it was Rudi's, it wouldn't have changed anything. No one on the prosecution contended that Raf had had sex with Meredith or left the deposit.

While I clearly see the defects in so much of the "investigation", the courts obviously didn't. Now had the stain come up with a match to none of the players including Giacomo THAT would have undone the logic of the kids having to be the accomplices.

Wedded to all this is another issue Massei acknowledged, but then booted - namely the issue of a suspect-centric investigation. Massei went to great pains in his 2009-conviction to try and explain why the original trial, Stefanoni's result particularly, had not been fettered by suspect-centrism.

Yet Massei's bizarre defending of Stefanoni in not testing the stain strays into the bizarre logic which Marasca/Bruno's court put an end to.

 

[Strozzi]

Male sperm? What other kinds are there?

Feline. An Italian cat, as Grinder will acknowledge. Blame it on the cat.

 

[Mr Fied]

If they had tested the stain and it was Rudi's, it wouldn't have changed anything. No one on the prosecution contended that Raf had had sex with Meredith or left the deposit.

While I clearly see the defects in so much of the "investigation", the courts obviously didn't. Now had the stain come up with a match to none of the players including Giacomo THAT would have undone the logic of the kids having to be the accomplices.

I agree that if it was Guede's they wouldn't have changed the prosecution persecution of Raff and Amanda.

But, the big problem here is that it wasn't tested at all, or so we are led to believe.

IIRC it was Massei that said it couldn't be date stamped, so therefore would have no probative value. However, I can't see many girls not washing a pillowcase with a semen stain on it, and in my view the semen stain would have almost certainly have been made at the time of the murder.

If it was not tested, that is criminal in itself. If it was, it must have either been Guede's or someone other than Raff or else we would have known about it.

This could have been the one piece of evidence the prosecution needed to prove multiple attackers. Other than this, there is no physical evidence to prove multiple attackers.

 

[Grinder]

Bill where's my prize?

 

[JREF2010]

I agree that if it was Guede's they wouldn't have changed the prosecution persecution of Raff and Amanda.

But, the big problem here is that it wasn't tested at all, or so we are led to believe.

IIRC it was Massei that said it couldn't be date stamped, so therefore would have no probative value. However, I can't see many girls not washing a pillowcase with a semen stain on it, and in my view the semen stain would have almost certainly have been made at the time of the murder.

If it was not tested, that is criminal in itself. If it was, it must have either been Guede's or someone other than Raff or else we would have known about it.

This could have been the one piece of evidence the prosecution needed to prove multiple attackers. Other than this, there is no physical evidence to prove multiple attackers.

Seems odd how Massei found it not important and then found other DNA critical? How can it be unimportant, due to no time stamp ability,for the semen stain and then another sample of DNA is accepted?

Thats the shame of reality, in movies all this is wrapped up nicely. In reality the Migniniis, Napoleonis, Stefonanis, and Giobbis continue their foul work.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill where's my prize?

Your choice!

 

[Grinder]

Bill where's my prize?

 

[Mr Fied]

Seems odd how Massei found it not important and then found other DNA critical? How can it be unimportant, due to no time stamp ability,for the semen stain and then another sample of DNA is accepted?

Thats the shame of reality, in movies all this is wrapped up nicely. In reality the Migniniis, Napoleonis, Stefonanis, and Giobbis continue their foul work.

Even worse is that the courts had access to the evidence collection videos showing how they swabbed for DNA, how they mishandled evidence such as the bra clasp, and yet they still admitted the results as evidence.

 

[anglolawyer]

A pleasure to see you Anglo. Since you been busting my chops on the Kokomani proof, it made me recall your "the police erased PL's incoming text message" theory, which IIRC was based solely on one reporter's (since sent to Outer Mongolia I think) account that the police said they found texts instead of a text. I'm sure you had all sorts of other proof that I have forgotten.

Correct. I'm not getting into it again (boring) but it was based on rather more than the journalists note of the press conference, not that that isn't strong evidence by itself. I commend you to my article. It's still online somewhere I think.

 

[anglolawyer]

Whales

Feline. An Italian cat, as Grinder will acknowledge. Blame it on the cat.

No. In that case you would speak of human sperm, to distinguish it from that of other species.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill where's my prize?

You are being hard to please.... indeed, very Grinder.

 

[Ken Dine]

Seems odd how Massei found it not important and then found other DNA critical? How can it be unimportant, due to no time stamp ability,for the semen stain and then another sample of DNA is accepted?

If they do it right away, they can roughly date when the semen is deposited by measuring its moisture content.

That would be an enviable job, eh?

Of course, the inept Italians never bothered to do any moisture testing, nor even take a temperature reading of Meredith's liver to determine TOD when they should have.

That they managed to find 5 African hairs in Meredith's bedroom is rather surprising, but perhaps a couple of their CSI people were diligent in their work and we've mainly seen the Italians' obvious FUBARs?

Thats the shame of reality, in movies all this is wrapped up nicely. In reality the Migniniis, Napoleonis, Stefonanis, and Giobbis continue their foul work.

Mignini was promoted to get him out of the courtroom, so he's been effectively neutralized.

I hope, they did something about their Stefanoni problem, but who knows? At least, I hope they tightened up their testing protocols?

Giobbi is likely the type of upper-echelon sleezeball who has teflon skin, but maybe he learned something from his obvious screw-ups?

I wonder if Amanda's picture is still hanging on Giobbi's wall next to the mafia criminals he once went after?

 

[Strozzi]

If they do it right away, they can roughly date when the semen is deposited by measuring its moisture content.

That would be an enviable job, eh?

Of course, the inept Italians never bothered to do any moisture testing, nor even take a temperature reading of Meredith's liver to determine TOD when they should have.

That they managed to find 5 African hairs in Meredith's bedroom is rather surprising, but perhaps a couple of their CSI people were diligent in their work and we've mainly seen the Italians' obvious FUBARs?




Mignini was promoted to get him out of the courtroom, so he's been effectively neutralized.

I hope, they did something about their Stefanoni problem, but who knows? At least, I hope they tightened up their testing protocols?
Giobbi is likely the type of upper-echelon sleezeball who has teflon skin, but maybe he learned something from his obvious screw-ups?

I wonder if Amanda's picture is still hanging on Giobbi's wall next to the mafia criminals he once went after?

I suspect that going forwards good defense attorneys who face Stefanoni testifying on forensic evidence against their clients will mop the floor with her. She better be wearing clean gloves in any videos showing her collecting evidence at crime scenes.

 

[sept79]

I suspect that going forwards good defense attorneys who face Stefanoni testifying on forensic evidence against their clients will mop the floor with her. She better be wearing clean gloves in any videos showing her collecting evidence at crime scenes.

And the EDFs must be demanded from her in no uncertain terms . . .

 

[Bill Williams]

I suspect that going forwards good defense attorneys who face Stefanoni testifying on forensic evidence against their clients will mop the floor with her. She better be wearing clean gloves in any videos showing her collecting evidence at crime scenes.

Remember - on the 5th/6th Mignini didn't have the money to videotale the most omportant interrogation(s) of his career.

Yet Stefanoni had the foresight and budget to videotape her incompetence six eeeks later! Hoots!

If Stefanoni stood by her work, why wouldn't Mignini his? Or does this mean that what the interrogation video(s) showed was REALLY bad, as opposed to just criminally bad?

 

[Grinder]

No. In that case you would speak of human sperm, to distinguish it from that of other species.

Sperm Whale

ETA - You had asked

Male sperm? What other kinds are there?

 

[TruthCalls]

There is nothing nonsensical in saying that Rudi's semen being found doesn't meaningfully or really at all change the case. It doesn't make it a solo effort anymore than it already is or isn't. Can you you provide say 20 of the exact scenario that have occurred in the last month? That is from a B&E to murder.



There were other DNAs found and fingerprints IIRC that were never identified. Once again the case I've been making is that there is as much evidence or more of Koko being involved rather than Raf and that should undo the need to make Rudi a solo operator.

You seem to forget that we are depending on evidence produced by an incompetent and perhaps corrupt ICSI and police force.

I think the idea that they didn't want to test the semen stain because if it was Rudi's that would weaken the case is less likely than your Martians.

ETA - obviously Godwin's law didn't apply that's why I ask if there was an equivalent for mentioning Martians.

I still need to disagree with you. Guede and his defense attempted to minimize his involvement in the crime. Due to the blood evidence we can assume Meredith's bra was partially removed prior to or just after initially being stabbed. She bleed heavily which soaked her bra. However, her bra was then fully removed while she was still alive, as proven by the aspirated blood droplets on the otherwise clean skin of her breasts. It's reasonable to assume Guede didn't ejaculate until after this happened as he would likely have lost interest and not finished removing her bra if the order were reversed.

Of course, this only makes sense if you assume one attacker. But again, the only forensic evidence found in the room belonged to Guede or Meredith. The clasp is likely due to contamination. I'm not aware of any other DNA found nor was I aware of any unidentified prints. Yes, it's possible others were involved but it would be extremely difficult to put together a scenario that fits all the evidence (including if it was semen and was Guede's) and explains how the others involved left no forensic trace of themselves.

The point is, if it was his semen then it means he was engaged with Meredith far longer than just some quick touchie-feely before running off to the bathroom. It would prove he disabled Meredith sufficiently to open his pants and masturbate without her fighting back. It puts him at the end of the assault.

 

[Grinder]

I still need to disagree with you. Guede and his defense attempted to minimize his involvement in the crime. Due to the blood evidence we can assume Meredith's bra was partially removed prior to or just after initially being stabbed. She bleed heavily which soaked her bra. However, her bra was then fully removed while she was still alive, as proven by the aspirated blood droplets on the otherwise clean skin of her breasts. It's reasonable to assume Guede didn't ejaculate until after this happened as he would likely have lost interest and not finished removing her bra if the order were reversed.

I do believe that the prosecution disagreed with this and said the bra was removed after the death. i know the arguments so just accept that the court and prosecution didn't agree and therefore Rudi's deposit wouldn't change anything.

Of course, this only makes sense if you assume one attacker. But again, the only forensic evidence found in the room belonged to Guede or Meredith. The clasp is likely due to contamination. I'm not aware of any other DNA found nor was I aware of any unidentified prints. Yes, it's possible others were involved but it would be extremely difficult to put together a scenario that fits all the evidence (including if it was semen and was Guede's) and explains how the others involved left no forensic trace of themselves.

As I've been saying, there is as much evidence for a third man as there is for Raf. The ICSI was pathetic and could easily have missed all sorts of stuff. I don't keep a file but I'm sure that many pieces of evidence found were not tied to anyone. Weren't there other male DNA fragments found on the clasp.

The point is, if it was his semen then it means he was engaged with Meredith far longer than just some quick touchie-feely before running off to the bathroom. It would prove he disabled Meredith sufficiently to open his pants and masturbate without her fighting back. It puts him at the end of the assault.

I doubt he needed to masturbate. Why do you think with the media saying they had found male sperm he didn't concoct a story to explain it? He had time to work on it before his Skype. He explained the toilet. He explained his print on the juice bottle. He explained the window wasn't broken when he left. He explained the towels.

Did the defense ever make the case that if it was Rudi's that would prove beyond a doubt he acted alone?

ETA - Oh and have you found any cases where a burglar was caught and then raped and brutally murdered a woman that found him in her place, much less the over one a day you claimed?