Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vixen]

Any way one looks at it, it's wacky.

If one accepts he was there near the cottage and most do, what was he doing there and why would he come out 2 months later? And he didn't go to media forst AFAIK.

From TJMK:

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Basically he said that he was on the road heading out to a bar, and it was around 9:30pm or so. He was driving along Via della Pergola and at a speed of about 40-50 km/hr (about 25-30 mph) he approached what looked to be a black sack in the middle of the road. He stopped suddenly to discover that the dark object was in fact Raffaele and Amanda lying down.

First Sollecito came to the driver’s side of the door, and winding his window down, Mr Kokomani hit Sollecito, complaining that he himself was almost hit. Amanda Knox then appeared on the passenger’s side of the car and pulled out a large knife, which he described as the same as the one he saw in the paper sequestered from RS’s apartment.

She raised it above her head with both hands, holding both the handle and blade, and began to curse at him in Italian, uttering various threats. He then proceeded to throw olives at Amanda’s face, and then he threw his old Nokia phone and managed to hit her in the forehead. He took a snapshot of Amanda and Raf with his other phone (an Ericsson) and then moved along a bit.

He next saw Rudy Guede at the top of the driveway, and at the same time he could hear yelling, one person. yelling by herself or himself, perhaps moaning about something. He asked Guede what that was, and he responded it was just music at the house and that Knox had the knife because they had used it to cut a cake at a party at the house.

Mr Kokomani looked at the house and saw that a light was on. He then proceeded on his way, shaken by what just happened. He showed the picture to people at the bar, and they said “oh it’s just the Pugliese kid…. no worries” and since the picture was dark he deleted it.
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index...from_the_courtroom_on_four_more_eyewitnesses/
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He had info he could only have known if he had been there. The bins he said the three were crouching behind were exactly where he said they were and the weather was as described. He claimed Rudy begged tto borrow his vehicle for €259-.

OK He's a liar, johnny-come-lately, ne'er-do-well lickspittle, but even they tell the truth sometimes.

The crap performnce in the witness box was obviously witness tampering, like Aviello and Alessi. What a sorry bunch of characters that ever populated a trial.

Interestingly, the defense aren't suing any of these for libel about the claims they were bribed off. Hard to separate the lawyers from the crooks, sometimes.

 

[JREF2010]

thats good Vixen, then Koko should have charges pressed against him.

 

[bagels]

From TJMK:

--------

Basically he said that he was on the road heading out to a bar, and it was around 9:30pm or so. He was driving along Via della Pergola and at a speed of about 40-50 km/hr (about 25-30 mph) he approached what looked to be a black sack in the middle of the road. He stopped suddenly to discover that the dark object was in fact Raffaele and Amanda lying down.

First Sollecito came to the driver’s side of the door, and winding his window down, Mr Kokomani hit Sollecito, complaining that he himself was almost hit. Amanda Knox then appeared on the passenger’s side of the car and pulled out a large knife, which he described as the same as the one he saw in the paper sequestered from RS’s apartment.

She raised it above her head with both hands, holding both the handle and blade, and began to curse at him in Italian, uttering various threats. He then proceeded to throw olives at Amanda’s face, and then he threw his old Nokia phone and managed to hit her in the forehead. He took a snapshot of Amanda and Raf with his other phone (an Ericsson) and then moved along a bit.

He next saw Rudy Guede at the top of the driveway, and at the same time he could hear yelling, one person. yelling by herself or himself, perhaps moaning about something. He asked Guede what that was, and he responded it was just music at the house and that Knox had the knife because they had used it to cut a cake at a party at the house.

Mr Kokomani looked at the house and saw that a light was on. He then proceeded on his way, shaken by what just happened. He showed the picture to people at the bar, and they said “oh it’s just the Pugliese kid…. no worries” and since the picture was dark he deleted it.
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index...from_the_courtroom_on_four_more_eyewitnesses/
----------

He had info he could only have known if he had been there. The bins he said the three were crouching behind were exactly where he said they were and the weather was as described. He claimed Rudy begged tto borrow his vehicle for €259-.

OK He's a liar, johnny-come-lately, ne'er-do-well lickspittle, but even they tell the truth sometimes.

The crap performnce in the witness box was obviously witness tampering, like Aviello and Alessi. What a sorry bunch of characters that ever populated a trial.

Interestingly, the defense aren't suing any of these for libel about the claims they were bribed off. Hard to separate the lawyers from the crooks, sometimes.

"when asked “what color is your car” his response literally “black blue”. When asked again he said “I paid only two hundred Euro for it”. When asked at what time do you usually eat dinner, he said “when I get hungry”.

When asked what color Amanda’s eyes were, forgetting the fact that she was sitting 5 feet away, he says “occhi bianchi” (white eyes). When asked how he knew the time when he was on the street, he stated, “I have a clock on my dashboard”, but when asked what time it said, he responded, “it does not work”. When asked if he spoke to reporters, he said “NO”, then “maybe”, then “I dont think so”. The defense then showed him being interviewed by a Canale 5 reporter, and his final answer was “yes”."

lol this is a comedy routine

 

[Bill Williams]

not as funny as someone saying that if a video of amanda at q's store showed up it wouldn't be a big deal she probably would have just forgotten she had been there.

or not as funny as someone saying hellmann got the calunnia right.

or that luca cheli shouldn't be believed

Fortunately no one I know said he shouldn't be believed. Is the end of Sept strawman day?

Reread the post upthread. #3291.

 

[Strozzi]

According to Cheli B&M did believe in multiple attackers. I'll go with his assessment.

Were they hovering in the air in Meredith's bedroom, so as to leave no physical evidence? Or do you believe that since Stefanoni allowed Meredith's bra clasp to lie on the floor for 47 days, get stepped on, and end up under a rug, then picked it up and handled it with her dirty gloves, tested it her special way, and then destroy it in moisture so it cannot be independently examined - does that convince you that the trace sample DNA on the bra clasp is proof of multiple attackers?

 

[Strozzi]

Doesn't work with Curatolo. Doesn't work with the car breaking down. Nope, he was involved and another of the Albanian gang was with Rudi in the house and did the knifing. Both Rudi and Koko are scared to death of this guy (geez look what he did to Meredith) and they will do or say or not say what they need to, to stay alive.

What physical evidence is there of a second assailant in the house? How did he gain entry?

 

[Strozzi]

Only, one knife wound was made by a considerably narrower blade. You haven't explained the facial and neck bruising.

Any theory as to how he got in?

No evidence exists that the two cuts to the side of the neck and the stab thrust to her throat were made by different size knife blades.

The neck and facial bruising occurred when the victim was grabbed, hit, shoved, and/or slammed down. I don't have to know every twist and hit in the struggle to know that she sustained lots of bruises, scrapes, hits, and pressure.

How did Rudi get in, you ask? Through Filomena's window.

 

[anglolawyer]

Yes so what? You asked what I meant by there and I answered and this vitriolic response is not up to your standards.



Accused of murder? No I said he was there and an accomplice in the burglary most likely with a third man. (Great movie!)

CD was quoted with a giant three goal smile on my face. Follain is a silly fop.

Here is a lousy Google translate of a Rudi document:

In addition to Ms. TIBERI and the already mentioned GABRIELE MANCINI, the
defense of the accused requested that there be called to testify Kokomani Hekuran, an
Albanian national, already heard as a witness several times in the course of the
preliminary investigation, it appeared to be the only one to have seen along the GUEDE,
the KNOX and PROMPT, just near the house in Via della Pergola and on a day that was
either October 31 or the evening of the crime, otherwise in circumstances rather
nebulous; document production was closely related with the deposition, in resolving
claims of meteorological company on the detection or less of rainfall during the two days
aforesaid (having already reported the heads of a rain in place at the time of the encounter
with the three). Attached, as an act of investigation pursuant to art. 391 - bis cpp, the
defenders of GUEDE offered in a production record of obtaining information from that
ENZO Pula, owner of a farm with a restaurant where the Kokomani had represented to
have worked in the past, and in which he would have been seen from GUEDE, occasional
customer: in the minutes, the Pula denied that the witness had been in his employment
during the period indicated by him, and excluded, however, that had never been used as a
job as a waiter


It would seem Pula would have said he never worked there if he hadn't and as we all know dates mean nothing in Italy.



What does Popovic have to do with this?

ETA - Albanian was a waiter, reminding him well of us exchanged a few words and
represented to be called RUDI, as a cousin of Kokomani.

So Rudi denied that Kokomani knew him and produced evidence to back that up. With all the resources at their disposal it should have been easy enough to prove Guede was lying. After all, Kokomani, I read with surprise, was touted as some kind of star witness so he was worth the minimal effort to score a strong point.

Popovic is relevant because she places Amanda at Raffaele's apartment at about the time her phone was allegedly pinged in the vicinity of her own. That calls into question the reliability of the one shred of evidence that places Kokomani 'there'. His own obviously concocted story rather suggests he was not. So, who was the third person in this egregious case of over-manning?

 

[Strozzi]

Marasca covers this one. While Amanda was standing outside the murder room screaming, Rudy came out covered in blood and Amanda accidentally got some of Meredith's blood on her hand posthumously when he shook her hand and said "cover for me, blame it on another black man" and realizing that a hardline prosecutor like Mignini might be on the case and could get the wrong idea about all this she vigorously washed it off in her sink shedding her own DNA in the process.

Bagels, I just saw your post (above) which is a recent response to something Vixen wrote. Are you just toying with Vixen or do you really believe this?

 

[Strozzi]

Apparently he and Rudy greeted each other with a term of endearment (cousin or something) as they'd once smoked dope together. Easily corroborated with Rudy's ex-adopted family who hired him on their farm.

Why do YOU think they wheeled Kokomani in?

Why did they wheel him in the courtroom? He was a witness for the prosecution. Perhaps he had just been "prepped" for his testimony.

 

[Vixen]

Bagels, I just saw your post (above) which is a recent response to something Vixen wrote. Are you just toying with Vixen or do you really believe this?

bagels is actually paraphrasing Bruno-Marasca's theory.

 

[Strozzi]

bagels is actually paraphrasing Bruno-Marasca's theory.

I thought that might be it, as far fetched as Bruno-Marasca's theory is.

I predict history and law students in Italy will decades in the future read verdicts and motivation theories offered by judges such as Bruno-Marasca and roll their eyes wondering how Italian jurisprudence in the early part of the 21st century could come up with such irrational, contorted, fantasy theories unsupported by serious evidence.

It reminds me of how Prosecutor Mignini, asked by a U.S. CNN journalist how Amanda could have committed the crime when there is no physical evidence of her in the bedroom, said maybe she directed it from another room. No real evidence, just wishful thinking and fantasy explanations.

 

[Grinder]

Were they hovering in the air in Meredith's bedroom, so as to leave no physical evidence? Or do you believe that since Stefanoni allowed Meredith's bra clasp to lie on the floor for 47 days, get stepped on, and end up under a rug, then picked it up and handled it with her dirty gloves, tested it her special way, and then destroy it in moisture so it cannot be independently examined - does that convince you that the trace sample DNA on the bra clasp is proof of multiple attackers?

What physical evidence is there of a second assailant in the house? How did he gain entry?

The evidence is as strong or stronger for someone BESIDES the kids being in the murder room than the kids IIUC they did find DNA and prints in the room that they couldn't match to anyone. If I'm wrong about that it remains the case that the PG have nothing but the clasp and knife bogus DNA on the kids than they have on anybody else.

Part of Italian law requires that circumstantial evidence be viewed as to how many other explanations can be given for the same evidence and the value determined by the inverse ration of the number of alternative explanations. The PGP don't want to admit that the third man could have been there just as likely as the kids because that lowers the multiple attacker circumstantial evidence value.

 

[Grinder]

So Rudi denied that Kokomani knew him and produced evidence to back that up. With all the resources at their disposal it should have been easy enough to prove Guede was lying. After all, Kokomani, I read with surprise, was touted as some kind of star witness so he was worth the minimal effort to score a strong point.

Popovic is relevant because she places Amanda at Raffaele's apartment at about the time her phone was allegedly pinged in the vicinity of her own. That calls into question the reliability of the one shred of evidence that places Kokomani 'there'. His own obviously concocted story rather suggests he was not. So, who was the third person in this egregious case of over-manning?

No they didn't prove they didn't know each other. Who would have cared about this? This was Rudi's trial. Koko was a star witness in the kids' trial.

As Vixen has pointed out he knew things only someone in the area could know.

He was there more than Amanda - "I can't lie I was there".

The story he told is obviously a lie, deluded, fantastic but he couldn't exactly tell the truth that he was the wheel man, could he?

 

[Grinder]

I thought that might be it, as far fetched as Bruno-Marasca's theory is.

So you can see why the PGP think the whole verdict is wacky.

I predict history and law students in Italy will decades in the future read verdicts and motivation theories offered by judges such as Bruno-Marasca and roll their eyes wondering how Italian jurisprudence in the early part of the 21st century could come up with such irrational, contorted, fantasy theories unsupported by serious evidence.

Is there a source for MR from other cases? Are there books written on MR reports over the years? How they changed over the years?

It reminds me of how Prosecutor Mignini, asked by a U.S. CNN journalist how Amanda could have committed the crime when there is no physical evidence of her in the bedroom, said maybe she directed it from another room. No real evidence, just wishful thinking and fantasy explanations.

She's just a Charles Manson.

I wonder what US/UK MR would look like if we had to produce them. What would the Orenthal James MR read like? Or the Scott Peterson's?

 

[Dougm]

I wonder what US/UK MR would look like if we had to produce them. What would the Orenthal James MR read like? Or the Scott Peterson's?

I don't know, but those two cases are so different, the MRs would have to be approached in a totally different way.

In OJs case, there was so much evidence against him, the MR would have to spend pages and pages just to list it all. Lots of smoking guns. In Peterson's case, some evidence, connecting the dots, odd behavior before and after, more similar to an Italian case.

 

[anglolawyer]

No they didn't prove they didn't know each other. Who would have cared about this? This was Rudi's trial. Koko was a star witness in the kids' trial.

As Vixen has pointed out he knew things only someone in the area could know.

He was there more than Amanda - "I can't lie I was there".

The story he told is obviously a lie, deluded, fantastic but he couldn't exactly tell the truth that he was the wheel man, could he?

Koko gave ID evidence. It is well known that ID evidence has more weight when the person identified is known already to the witness. Therefore, there was considerable value in proving he knew Guede and that Guede, who disputed that fact, was lying about it. Your credulousness on this stands in contrast to your hyper-critical take on Tramontano's ID evidence.

 

[Numbers]

The evidence is as strong or stronger for someone BESIDES the kids being in the murder room than the kids IIUC they did find DNA and prints in the room that they couldn't match to anyone. If I'm wrong about that it remains the case that the PG have nothing but the clasp and knife bogus DNA on the kids than they have on anybody else.

Part of Italian law requires that circumstantial evidence be viewed as to how many other explanations can be given for the same evidence and the value determined by the inverse ration of the number of alternative explanations. The PGP don't want to admit that the third man could have been there just as likely as the kids because that lowers the multiple attacker circumstantial evidence value.

Please supply the citation from an official Italian source for this. I would like to know the CPP article, Constitutional Court decision, or CSC court decision that established this principle.

 

[Strozzi]

The evidence is as strong or stronger for someone BESIDES the kids being in the murder room than the kids IIUC they did find DNA and prints in the room that they couldn't match to anyone. If I'm wrong about that it remains the case that the PG have nothing but the clasp and knife bogus DNA on the kids than they have on anybody else.

Part of Italian law requires that circumstantial evidence be viewed as to how many other explanations can be given for the same evidence and the value determined by the inverse ration of the number of alternative explanations. The PGP don't want to admit that the third man could have been there just as likely as the kids because that lowers the multiple attacker circumstantial evidence value.

First of all, how does the defense know if prints were matched or not? Trust Stefanoni or her colleages or bosses? Don't you remember Prosecutor Comodi say "we decide what to show (reveal to) the defense" (and what to conceal)?

The cottage was a rental property rented by Filomena and Laura two months before the murder. They rented two bedrooms to Amanda and Meredith. It is not surprising if there are prints in Meredith's room from earlier tenants and visitors or then-current tenants and visitors. So why does the presence of prints indicate more than one person was there the evening of Nov 1 when the murder occurred?

Did the police get reference prints from earlier tenants and visitors, from Meredith's "boyfriend" Giacomo, the other guys downstairs, as well as from Filomena, Laura, Marco, Laura's handyman boyfriend, as well as any other male and female who was known to have visited the upstairs flat? How did the match go?

You can't match fingerprints, footprints, putative semen stains, etc. unless you have similar to match. Otherwise, you have unmatched prints.

Did the authorities really try, did they do so in a competent, valid way? They should have paid another consulting fee to the scientific police official who "matched" the foot smear on the bath mat to Raffaele's foot - he can claim a match to just about anyone. I question whether the authorities really tried to match prints in any serious, scientifically-valid way.

Even had they matched prints, the next question is does it have probative value? Were the prints created the evening of the murder?

Nothing shows that another person was there with Rudi, except for the victim.

 

[Bob001]

I long ago gave up trying to follow -- or even make sense of -- this thread, but I note that it's still going strong. So I propose a dance-off:

1/ The people who still hold the belief that Amanda and Raffaele had anything at all to do with Meredith's death: summarize your evidence point-by-point, particularly citing errors you think were made by the two Italian courts that determined there is no evidence against them;

2/ Others who disagree: respond point-by-point.