Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vixen]

Once more, what do you mean by 'there'? Is it: (1) in the house at the time of the murder or (2) in the area covered by the cell towers or (3) something else?

Once more, how do you know Kokomani knew Guede?


So the evidence that proves Koko knew Guede comes from Kokomani. Well, well, well. Grinder is smarter than you. He knows better than to make such a fool of himself (he pins his faith instead on my not noticing - or not caring - when he ignores my questions). Is that evidence corroborated? If not, why should anyone believe it in view of the fact no one believed anything this nut case said?

Apparently he and Rudy greeted each other with a term of endearment (cousin or something) as they'd once smoked dope together. Easily corroborated with Rudy's ex-adopted family who hired him on their farm.

Why do YOU think they wheeled Kokomani in?

 

[Grinder]

Once more, what do you mean by 'there'? Is it: (1) in the house at the time of the murder or (2) in the area covered by the cell towers or (3) something else?

Once more, how do you know Kokomani knew Guede?

Near the cottage.

So the evidence that proves Koko knew Guede comes from Kokomani. Well, well, well. Grinder is smarter than you. He knows better than to make such a fool of himself (he pins his faith instead on my not noticing - or not caring - when he ignores my questions). Is that evidence corroborated? If not, why should anyone believe it in view of the fact no one believed anything this nut case said?

Kokomani said he knew the murderer so just for fun, right? The best records I can find had them both at the farm and restaurant but Rudi denied it. The owner of the restaurant questioned the dates that Koko claimed but not that he didn't work there.

Anyway they were both drug dealers according to the PIP so they must have known each other.

 

[Grinder]

Have you considered Kokomani might be telling the truth (apart from not incriminating himself)? Could be, he felt simple human disgust at the crime and being chased down the road by Knife Boy left him with a grudge.

Doesn't work with Curatolo. Doesn't work with the car breaking down. Nope, he was involved and another of the Albanian gang was with Rudi in the house and did the knifing. Both Rudi and Koko are scared to death of this guy (geez look what he did to Meredith) and they will do or say or not say what they need to, to stay alive.

 

[Dougm]

Near the cottage.




Kokomani said he knew the murderer so just for fun, right? The best records I can find had them both at the farm and restaurant but Rudi denied it. The owner of the restaurant questioned the dates that Koko claimed but not that he didn't work there.

Anyway they were both drug dealers according to the PIP so they must have known each other.

Based on his claims of having met Amanda through her uncle, months before she set foot in Perugia, and his nonsensical story about seeing AK, RS, and RG in the street and throwing olives at them, I had always kind of discounted the other things he said.

The most consistent evidence about Koko is that he seems to have bats in his belfry.

 

[Grinder]

Based on his claims of having met Amanda through her uncle, months before she set foot in Perugia, and his nonsensical story about seeing AK, RS, and RG in the street and throwing olives at them, I had always kind of discounted the other things he said.

The most consistent evidence about Koko is that he seems to have bats in his belfry.

Well his gambit seems to have worked.

 

[bagels]

In his full testimony Koko says while he's talking to Rudy outside the cottage he then goes up to the tow truck and talks to the passengers and gives them directions lol

He seems to be embellishing random details from the press IMO.

 

[Grinder]

In his full testimony Koko says while he's talking to Rudy outside the cottage he then goes up to the tow truck and talks to the passengers and gives them directions lol

He seems to be embellishing random details from the press IMO.

Well I certainly wouldn't have expected him to tell the truth about why he was there.

 

[anglolawyer]

Near the cottage.

He was 'near' the cottage, was he? So were Nara and Toto.

Kokomani said he knew the murderer so just for fun, right? The best records I can find had them both at the farm and restaurant but Rudi denied it. The owner of the restaurant questioned the dates that Koko claimed but not that he didn't work there.

Anyway they were both drug dealers according to the PIP so they must have known each other.

I see you are citing Candace now. LOL. I bet that came through gritted teeth. Follain says Koko recognised Rudy when he saw him in the papers, not from knowing him already. What are these 'best records' of yours that cause you to accuse a man of murder?

You have no reliable evidence they knew each other, the cell towrs pinged Amanda when she was most probably talking to Popovic, there is not a shred of evidence placing Koko at the scene of the crime (that means in the apartment) and you don't have a credible reason why Koko would re-involve himself deeply in murder. Since you have him giving evidence against Rudy you must accept he incurred the risk of Rudy turning on him. The whole thing is fantastic and not up to your usual standard.

 

[anglolawyer]

Apparently he and Rudy greeted each other with a term of endearment (cousin or something) as they'd once smoked dope together. Easily corroborated with Rudy's ex-adopted family who hired him on their farm.

Is it? On what dates did they give this evidence?

Why do YOU think they wheeled Kokomani in?

That's easy. Desperation.

 

[Grinder]

He was 'near' the cottage, was he? So were Nara and Toto.

Yes so what? You asked what I meant by there and I answered and this vitriolic response is not up to your standards.

I see you are citing Candace now. LOL. I bet that came through gritted teeth. Follain says Koko recognised Rudy when he saw him in the papers, not from knowing him already. What are these 'best records' of yours that cause you to accuse a man of murder?

Accused of murder? No I said he was there and an accomplice in the burglary most likely with a third man. (Great movie!)

CD was quoted with a giant three goal smile on my face. Follain is a silly fop.

Here is a lousy Google translate of a Rudi document:

In addition to Ms. TIBERI and the already mentioned GABRIELE MANCINI, the
defense of the accused requested that there be called to testify Kokomani Hekuran, an
Albanian national, already heard as a witness several times in the course of the
preliminary investigation, it appeared to be the only one to have seen along the GUEDE,
the KNOX and PROMPT, just near the house in Via della Pergola and on a day that was
either October 31 or the evening of the crime, otherwise in circumstances rather
nebulous; document production was closely related with the deposition, in resolving
claims of meteorological company on the detection or less of rainfall during the two days
aforesaid (having already reported the heads of a rain in place at the time of the encounter
with the three). Attached, as an act of investigation pursuant to art. 391 - bis cpp, the
defenders of GUEDE offered in a production record of obtaining information from that
ENZO Pula, owner of a farm with a restaurant where the Kokomani had represented to
have worked in the past, and in which he would have been seen from GUEDE, occasional
customer: in the minutes, the Pula denied that the witness had been in his employment
during the period indicated by him, and excluded, however, that had never been used as a
job as a waiter


It would seem Pula would have said he never worked there if he hadn't and as we all know dates mean nothing in Italy.

You have no reliable evidence they knew each other, the cell towrs pinged Amanda when she was most probably talking to Popovic, there is not a shred of evidence placing Koko at the scene of the crime (that means in the apartment) and you don't have a credible reason why Koko would re-involve himself deeply in murder. Since you have him giving evidence against Rudy you must accept he incurred the risk of Rudy turning on him. The whole thing is fantastic and not up to your usual standard.

What does Popovic have to do with this?

ETA - Albanian was a waiter, reminding him well of us exchanged a few words and
represented to be called RUDI, as a cousin of Kokomani.

 

[Dougm]

It is quite common in "famous" murder cases, for people to come forward and insert themselves into the case -- often people who have nothing whatsoever to do with it.

It appears that everything Koko testified to is not substantiated by any other source or evidence. Why would he get himself involved in a case he had nothing to do with? I don't know, but I can only follow reliable evidence and testimony, and he offers neither.

 

[Vixen]

Yes so what? You asked what I meant by there and I answered and this vitriolic response is not up to your standards.



Accused of murder? No I said he was there and an accomplice in the burglary most likely with a third man. (Great movie!)

CD was quoted with a giant three goal smile on my face. Follain is a silly fop.

Here is a lousy Google translate of a Rudi document:

In addition to Ms. TIBERI and the already mentioned GABRIELE MANCINI, the
defense of the accused requested that there be called to testify Kokomani Hekuran, an
Albanian national, already heard as a witness several times in the course of the
preliminary investigation, it appeared to be the only one to have seen along the GUEDE,
the KNOX and PROMPT, just near the house in Via della Pergola and on a day that was
either October 31 or the evening of the crime, otherwise in circumstances rather
nebulous; document production was closely related with the deposition, in resolving
claims of meteorological company on the detection or less of rainfall during the two days
aforesaid (having already reported the heads of a rain in place at the time of the encounter
with the three). Attached, as an act of investigation pursuant to art. 391 - bis cpp, the
defenders of GUEDE offered in a production record of obtaining information from that
ENZO Pula, owner of a farm with a restaurant where the Kokomani had represented to
have worked in the past, and in which he would have been seen from GUEDE, occasional
customer: in the minutes, the Pula denied that the witness had been in his employment
during the period indicated by him, and excluded, however, that had never been used as a
job as a waiter


It would seem Pula would have said he never worked there if he hadn't and as we all know dates mean nothing in Italy.



What does Popovic have to do with this?

ETA - Albanian was a waiter, reminding him well of us exchanged a few words and
represented to be called RUDI, as a cousin of Kokomani.

From the web:
------
Micheli examines the evidence of Hekuran Kokomani and finds him far from discredited. His says the testimony is garbled, his dates and times makes no sense but…. That Hekuran Kokomani was in the vicinity of the cottage on both 31st Oct. and 1st Nov isn’t in doubt.

Furthermore, Micheli says that when he gave his statement, the details which he gave of the breakdown of the car, the tow truck and the people involved weren’t known by anyone else. He must have witnessed the breakdown in Via della Pergola. The same breakdown was also seen by Allessandra Formica shortly after Rudy Guede collided with her boyfriend.

This places Hekuran Kokomani outside the cottage right around the time of Meredith’s murder and he in turn places Raffaele Sollecito, Amanda Knox and Rudy Guede together outside the cottage at the same time.
-------
http://www.nourishingobscurity.com/2009/12/meredith-this-one-just-for-aficianados/

 

[carbonjam72]

It is quite common in "famous" murder cases, for people to come forward and insert themselves into the case -- often people who have nothing whatsoever to do with it.

It appears that everything Koko testified to is not substantiated by any other source or evidence. Why would he get himself involved in a case he had nothing to do with? I don't know, but I can only follow reliable evidence and testimony, and he offers neither.

And Curatolo? That was his third case as a super witness for Mignini. And crazy Nara? What's her excuse?

Didn't the cub reporter Fois(?) find a third witness too?

 

[Grinder]

It is quite common in "famous" murder cases, for people to come forward and insert themselves into the case -- often people who have nothing whatsoever to do with it.

It appears that everything Koko testified to is not substantiated by any other source or evidence. Why would he get himself involved in a case he had nothing to do with? I don't know, but I can only follow reliable evidence and testimony, and he offers neither.

His phone was pinged in the area that night. There was a car spotted that could have been his old dark colored Golf.

While the tale he told is obviously a fable and he could have been looking for money from the media it is also possible and therefore probable that he was worried about being outed by the phone ping and wanted a cover story.

One thing that I don't think fits the publicity is having the lawyer set up the meeting with Mignini.

Even CD reports about his Rudi connection maybe Follain as well - how could it get more stolid than that?

 

[Grinder]

From the web:
------
Micheli examines the evidence of Hekuran Kokomani and finds him far from discredited. His says the testimony is garbled, his dates and times makes no sense but…. That Hekuran Kokomani was in the vicinity of the cottage on both 31st Oct. and 1st Nov isn’t in doubt.

Furthermore, Micheli says that when he gave his statement, the details which he gave of the breakdown of the car, the tow truck and the people involved weren’t known by anyone else. He must have witnessed the breakdown in Via della Pergola. The same breakdown was also seen by Allessandra Formica shortly after Rudy Guede collided with her boyfriend.

This places Hekuran Kokomani outside the cottage right around the time of Meredith’s murder and he in turn places Raffaele Sollecito, Amanda Knox and Rudy Guede together outside the cottage at the same time.
-------
http://www.nourishingobscurity.com/2009/12/meredith-this-one-just-for-aficianados/

yes, yes, and no - he obviously lied about amanda and raf and rudi as the tow truck and car would have been there and seen them as well. but he was there and most likely drove rudi and the third man. he was told to go to albania and cool his heels and then they decided he should come back fables a blazing. they wanted to make sure the third man escaped unscathed.

 

[Dougm]

His phone was pinged in the area that night. There was a car spotted that could have been his old dark colored Golf.

While the tale he told is obviously a fable and he could have been looking for money from the media it is also possible and therefore probable that he was worried about being outed by the phone ping and wanted a cover story.

One thing that I don't think fits the publicity is having the lawyer set up the meeting with Mignini.

Even CD reports about his Rudi connection maybe Follain as well - how could it get more stolid than that?

So you think he came forward and pretended to be crazy, so they would not suspect him?

Not sure that would work in must jurisdictions, but in Perugia????

 

[Bill Williams]

yes, yes, and no - he obviously lied about amanda and raf and rudi as the tow truck and car would have been there and seen them as well. but he was there and most likely drove rudi and the third man. he was told to go to albania and cool his heels and then they decided he should come back fables a blazing. they wanted to make sure the third man escaped unscathed.

Is this what is known as, "going for laughs"?

 

[Ken Dine]

And I'd go further and say that the high likelihood is that the minor injuries are entirely consistent with the initial physical struggle, until Guede gets behind Kercher with his knife at her throat and forces her down to the ground. I believe that it was at this point that Kercher stopped struggling and became passively compliant: Guede had a sharp knife at her throat, and there was probably also a simple communication along the lines of: "Struggle and I'll kill you - don't struggle and I won't use the knife on you".

This (IMO) is what enabled Guede to control Kercher sufficiently to initiate the sexual assault with one hand while keeping the knife at her throat with the other hand. But (again IMO) once Guede sexually violated Kercher, she (perhaps reflexively) reacted to it by struggling and/or screaming, and this is what prompted Guede to inflict the fatal stab wounds to the neck.

I feel Strozzi's account, that Guede attacked Meredith from behind and quickly subdued her with knife thrusts into her neck, matches the evidence better.

I suppose you could theorize that Guede subdued Meredith thru intimidation until he finished raping her, and then afterwards Guede killed Meredith?

However, you can't ignore the blood spray patterns, so your scenario would assume Guede first raped Meredith, then he forced Meredith to her knees, and then he slit her throat. Afterwards, (if you believe that theory), Guede then laid Meredith's body back down on the pillow that he had used to raise her hips in order to rape her, and just by chance her pubic area was directly above his semen stain on that pillow.

If Guede first raped Meredith and then executed her, then why not just push her lifeless body face down ...i.e., if Guede was already done raping her, then why bother to position Meredith's body in a sexual way atop that pillow?

The reconstruction of the murder using blood-spray analysis hasn't really been disputed. As Marasca notes in his opinion, after her throat was slashed Meredith was likely on her knees and she sprayed blood all over her wardrobe closet.

OBVIOUSLY, if a 2nd (or 3rd) murder had been assisting Guede, then they would have had to stood behind Guede, otherwise, their bodies would have blocked the aspirated blood spray onto Meredith's wardrobe closet and walls:

Marasca, page 28:

Double elements which, in the case under consideration, have largely positive results. And in fact the pertinence of this fact is evident, indeed accepted by this court. Equally correct is its evaluation concerning other trial verdicts, which confirm its validity. We are referring to multiple elements, linked to the complex reconstruction of the crime, which rule out Guede having acted alone. In the first place lies the existence of the two principal wounds (in reality three), found on the neck of the young English woman, one on one side and one on the other, with different directions and characteristics compatible (even if the conclusion is disputed by the defence) with two different knives.

And further, the lack of signs of resistance on the part of the girl, under whose nails no trace of any aggressor was found, excluding any desperate attempt at opposition; the bruises on the upper arms and the echymoses on the mandibular area and the lips (probably manual acts of constriction to shut the mouth of the victim) found at autopsy, and the chilling mode of killing, not adequately evaluated in the contested judgment. And in fact, in the same judgment (pages 323 and 325) it is evident that copious sprays of blood were recovered on the right side of the wardrobe in Kercher’s room, 50 cm from the floor; circumstances which, having regard to their direction, would lead one to believe that the girl literally had her “throat slashed” while probably on her knees, with the head tilted, a short distance from this item of furniture, and was inflicted with more cuts to the throat, of which one – inflicted on the left side – caused her death by asphyxia following the flow of blood, which flowed back into and blocked the airway “impeding breathing, a situation aggravated by fracture of the hyoid bone – also referable to the action of the knife – with consequent dyspnoea” (p 48). This is a physical action that is very difficult to ascribe to one person acting alone.


http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Marasca-Bruno-Motivations-Report.pdf

That Meredith didn't have an opportunity to scratch Guede is further indication that Guede had attacked her from behind, and then fairly quickly he subdued Meredith by plunging his knife into her throat.

Sorry for being graphic, but this murder was very brutal, as is the case in many such murders.

 

[Grinder]

So you think he came forward and pretended to be crazy, so they would not suspect him?

Not sure that would work in must jurisdictions, but in Perugia????

Any way one looks at it, it's wacky.

If one accepts he was there near the cottage and most do, what was he doing there and why would he come out 2 months later? And he didn't go to media forst AFAIK.

 

[Grinder]

Is this what is known as, "going for laughs"?

not as funny as someone saying that if a video of amanda at q's store showed up it wouldn't be a big deal she probably would have just forgotten she had been there.

or not as funny as someone saying hellmann got the calunnia right.

or that luca cheli shouldn't be believed