Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vixen]

I've been reading here for several years and have made many comments. I am not aware of any physical evidence that indicates that more than one assailant was inside the cottage the evening/night of the murder. There are many allegations that "evidence" exists but none of it, to my knowledge, stands up to scrutiny.

Bald claims and wishful thinking, Vixen, do not make it so.

Bruno and Matasca confirm as a settled legal fact there was more than one perpetrator. Res judicata.

Don't you think it odd Raff and Amanda have never started a campaign to "Find the Real Killers"?

 

[Kauffer]

It simply would not happen: nobody can force me to lie.

A false "confession" is not a lie - certainly not in these circumstances. There is a great deal of literature on the subject. People confess because they actually believe they are guilty or are convinced of the fact even to the extent of having created a false memory.

But Amanda did not confess.

I am sure you, like most people, would fold like a pack of cards at the devious intentions of criminally minded police officers.

 

[Vixen]

As I've commented many times I think the defense went too strong on denying the possibility of multiple attackers. Reading of the wounds and the lack of evidence under her nails makes a case for others being there. But the lack of evidence in the murder room of either kid makes their involvement unlikely.

The PGP can't say that the kids could be the only accomplices as it is just as likely that someone else helped murder Meredith and didn't leave any DNA or that the ICSI boobs missed it or didn't report it.

As the ISC says the evidence is too weak and contradictory and the Nencini court should have found them not guilty under 530 paragraph 2.

Police did find two sets of DNA they have never identified. Unless a DNA prototype is on a database, or they can match it to a suspect, it is of little value for now.

 

[Vixen]

Simpler explanation: During the late night interrogation the police incorrectly concluded that the recipient of the "see you later" text is the killer, and told Amanda (implied it or stated it outright to). The police fed the thought to her; it was their idea, not hers. They are responsible for it.

Amanda, for the first two hours of the interrogation, insisted through hostile interrogation that she was not at her cottage that night. It took Anna Donino's arrival and manipulative explanation to Amanda that she WAS there but did not remember it due to being traumatized to induce Amanda to believe her (correct) memory was wrong.

The recording will clear this up. Just listen to the recording.

Strozzi, even by Amanda's own testimony in court SHE was the one who brought up Patrick's name first. And far from retracting the false allegations she made against him, of raping and murdering Mez, whilst she was a witness, she reiterated her claims, under conditions, as set out by Bruno-Marasca wherein there was no pressure or coercion. They scoffed at the idea ECHR would uphold her in this matter.

 

[Strozzi]

Well, her self-description is, "stupid liar".

Vixen, have you ever been questioned at length by interrogators about a crime? Either as witness or suspect?

Have you ever been questioned by police under intense pressure to solve a crime who suspected you were involved and were concealing it? It would influence how they interrogated you, what they sought from you, and how they construed (or misconstrued) your answers. Is that part of your life experience?

 

[Samson]

Strozzi, even by Amanda's own testimony in court SHE was the one who brought up Patrick!s name first. And far from retracting the false allegations she made against him, of raping and murdering Mez, whilst she was a witness, she reiterated her claims, under conditions, as set out by Bruno-Marasca wherein there was no pressure or coercion. They scoffed at the idea ECHR would uphold her in this matter.

Vixen, on another website I suggested that you are a latecomer to the case, and you fell in with the wrong crowd, and that you do not believe in the narrative you propose here, but are instead enjoying the process of debating an untenable position.

Would you make a frank reply to this theory just for my benefit?

 

[Vixen]

Those wounds could have been inflicted by one person.

There would be evidence under her nails only if she had scratched him. She didn't scratch him. Scratching implies that she was facing him. I don't know of any wounds that imply she was facing him in the struggle.

I think 1) he rapidly moved in on (surprised?) and grabbed her, 2) she turned or twisted to move away (flee) from him, 3) he got in back of her, 4) he grabbed her with one hand and put his knife to the side of her neck/throat with the other, 5) she either resisted/twisted into the blade and accidentally got scraped/cut or he deliberately cut her, 6) he cut/stabbed her several more times, 7) he constrained/struggled with her as she went to the floor. (She never stood face to face to him and scratched him; no assailant skin under her nails.)

Time necessary to surprise, attack, and inflict the worst wounds? As short as 10 seconds from entering the room to slicing/stabbing her 3 times at the neck and throat. (I think he had his knife out and in hand as soon as he heard someone enter the flat.)

If she did not know he was in the house, he could have taken her by surprise. He could have advanced through the doorway and been on her in 2 seconds. He was a trained semi-pro basketball player. He was trained to charge forwards 6 - 8 feet with his arms/hands forward/outstretched to contain the other player.

I don't recall reading of any furniture, bedding, etc. that she might have thrown up as a barrier to him coming towards her, which might have been a natural action to take if she saw/heard him coming and had a few feet head start between them. She did not grab anything to put between them, as far as I know. No desk chair pulled out, no lamp, no nightstand pulled forward from its normal position next to the bed, no textbook or purse thrown at him. She was taken by surprise in her bedroom.

43 wounds, three significant knife wounds around the chin and neck, one them fatal, and ten knife wounds in all, plus superficial knife pricks (which Raff seemed to know all about and conjured up an explanation to preclude their discovery), 33 bruises.

In her criminal false allegation against Patrick, Amanda confessed to hearing thuds, as well as the scream.

As Bruno points out, the lack of defence wounds, such as DNA under the nails and the nature of the wrist, elbow and shoulder wounds, it is obvious Mez was forcibly restrained. It would be impossible for Rudy whilst gripping Mez in this position to stab her in the neck from the left with one knife, stab her under the chin to foist her head back and also from the right with yet a different knife and all the time sexually assaulting her.

There is clear evidence of being held from behind AND facing a perpetrator, for there were a series of finger bruises around her lower face, as though someone was forcibly covering her mouth, together with strangulation marks on her neck. As you know, this happens from the front as the perp's thumbs are key.

If it really was just Rudy alone running at her, he would have floored her. As it was, she was forced to her knees, and also had chunks of hair pulled out.

It is a fact, the perpetrators moved her body with a sheet away from the wardrobe, and she was undressed and posed AFTER death, with the bra clasp underneath the cloth and pillow and the body itself. The person who ripped off her bra clearly placed her body on top of it (ETA i.e., the braclasp).

Strangely, the position of the body was a mirror of Raff's halloween manga graphical book found in his apartment, and how bizarre, no doubt planted by Stefanoni, as was Raff's DNA on the bra clasp.

In addition, Mez' jeans were not inside out and were neatly folded IIRC. If serms unlikely a sole deranged killer would bother with this detail.

Face it, Amanda and Raff have pulled the wool over your eyes.

As for Rudy being a trained basketball player, Amanda was a trained rock climber with super strong hands.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen, on another website I suggested that you are a latecomer to the case, and you fell in with the wrong crowd, and that you do not believe in the narrative you propose here, but are instead enjoying the process of debating an untenable position.

Would you make a frank reply to this theory just for my benefit?

What "other website"? What "wrong crowd", what "untenable position", what "frank reply". As I am never less than frank, kindly explain your paranoid ramblings.

You keep hinting you're a close relation of Amanda's. Please disclose in which way, or should we assume false representation?

 

[anglolawyer]

Vixen - 43 wounds, three significant knife wounds around the chin and neck, one them fatal, and ten knife wounds in all, plus superficial knife pricks (which Raff seemed to know all about and conjured up an explanation to preclude their discovery), 33 bruises.

Whenever this comes up I always like to mention Joanne Yeates, murdered in Bristol by Vincent Tabak (single-handed) and left with 43 injuries (yes, 43)

 

[Vixen]

Vixen, on what basis do you claim that the police by the night of Nov 5/6 had not identified Rudy (as a person of interest)? Certainly the 4 guys living downstairs provided police with the names of people who had been around or on the property. If the police thought there was African hair at the crime scene, then the police would have had an interest in Rudy.

There were several dozen potential suspects in the frame as of that time. Forensic police collected literally hundreds of samples. Many of the purported "African hairs" turned out to be fibres. Even then, there will have been many previous occupants or visitors to the cottage, so finding a hair of any sort is not going to result in a "Eureka! I've found the killer!" moment. This was a serious murder investigation not a game of Cluedo.

 

[Vixen]

Have a go, vixen, at explaining what exactly, according to you, was Amanda's plan in the interrogation, with naming Lumumba AND placing herself in the flat.

Why didn't she just say nothing? The police could not have arrested her.

What could she possibly have hoped to gain by what she did?

My view is, Amanda was ready to come clean about it all, but her misguided parents gagged her and hired a PR company believing it was some kind of propaganda issue.

 

[carbonjam72]

My view is, Amanda was ready to come clean about it all, but her misguided parents gagged her and hired a PR company believing it was some kind of propaganda issue.

Out of curiosity Vixen, can you recreate the crime as it unfolded?

Who physically did what to whom that led to Meredtih's death, and in what order?

Leaving aside motives and behaviors after the fact, how do you reconstruct the murder itself?

Mach did this for us once, and had Amanda and Raf stabbing Meredith and then, immediately running out of the room.

If you really believe Guede did not kill Meredtih alone, how do you visualize the crime occurring?

 

[Strozzi]

Strozzi, even by Amanda's own testimony in court SHE was the one who brought up Patrick!s name first. And far from retracting the false allegations she made against him, of raping and murdering Mez, whilst she was a witness, she reiterated her claims, under conditions, as set out by Bruno-Marasca wherein there was no pressure or coercion. They scoffed at the idea ECHR would uphold her in this matter.

Vixen, you are playing a game here, trying to maintain that the first person who said Patrick's name is the one identifying him as the killer.

The police believed (incorrectly) that the murder was an inside job, that Amanda knew more than she was telling them, and that she had to be covering up for the (male) killer. In the late night interrogation Napoleoni and team insisted Amanda met that night with the person (Patrick) to whom she signed off using the Italian words for "See you later" (a common American English idiom saying "goodbye"). They shoved her cell phone text into her face as proof she meet with someone, in spite of her (accurate) denials. They mistook him to be the killer, and informed her that HE is the one, he is the killer (causing her to become instantly alarmed and afraid of Patrick, feelings that she did not have of him until that moment in interrogation). They were referring to Patrick, and demanded she tell his name.

The police first informed her, and elicited his name. They are responsible for shaping the message. As police chief de Felice crowed in the press conference in the morning "She told us what we knew to be true".

 

[Kauffer]

Have a go, vixen, at explaining what exactly, according to you, was Amanda's plan in the interrogation, with naming Lumumba AND placing herself in the flat.

Why didn't she just say nothing? The police could not have arrested her.

What could she possibly have hoped to gain by what she did?

My view is, Amanda was ready to come clean about it all, but her misguided parents gagged her and hired a PR company believing it was some kind of propaganda issue.

Huh? This is drivel.

How on earth does that address my post?

What exactly do you think you are achieving on this forum?

 

[Vixen]

Vixen - 43 wounds, three significant knife wounds around the chin and neck, one them fatal, and ten knife wounds in all, plus superficial knife pricks (which Raff seemed to know all about and conjured up an explanation to preclude their discovery), 33 bruises.

Whenever this comes up I always like to mention Joanne Yeates, murdered in Bristol by Vincent Tabak (single-handed) and left with 43 injuries (yes, 43)

Joanna Yeates' injuries were sustained by her violently fighting back when Tabak floored her and gripped her by the wrists. Her injuries included her head banged on the floor and death by strangulation. This was a murder by a sexual pervert trying to recreate a pornographic scene he downloaded on the internet.

Interestingly, it was Tabak who made the false allegation to police it was Chris Jeffries who was responsible, and who was consequently arrested as a result.


He pleaded guilty voluntarily.

from wiki:


Tabak initially maintained he was not responsible for Joanna Yeates' death, claiming that DNA evidence linking him to the crime had been fabricated by corrupt officials. However, on 8 February, he told Peter Brotherton, a prison chaplain, that he had killed her and intended to plead guilty.[103]

_____
After killing Yeates, Tabak attempted to cast suspicion for the murder onto Jefferies after watching a news broadcast about the case while spending the New Year with relatives in the Netherlands. He contacted Avon and Somerset Police to tell them that Jefferies had been using his car on the night of 17 December, and a CID officer, DC Karen Thomas, was sent to Amsterdam to talk to him.

_____

The key issue is the nature of Mez' injuries. Her arms were wrenched behind her, as evidenced from autopsy injuries.

 

[anglolawyer]

Joanna Yeates' injuries were sustained by her violently fighting back when Tabak floored her and gripped her by the wrists. Her injuries included her head banged on the floor and death by strangulation. This was a murder by a sexual pervert trying to recreate a pornographic scene he downloaded on the internet.

Interestingly, it was Tabak who made the false allegation to police it was Chris Jeffries who was responsible, and who was consequently arrested as a result.


He pleaded guilty voluntarily.

from wiki:


Tabak initially maintained he was not responsible for Joanna Yeates' death, claiming that DNA evidence linking him to the crime had been fabricated by corrupt officials. However, on 8 February, he told Peter Brotherton, a prison chaplain, that he had killed her and intended to plead guilty.[103]

_____
After killing Yeates, Tabak attempted to cast suspicion for the murder onto Jefferies after watching a news broadcast about the case while spending the New Year with relatives in the Netherlands. He contacted Avon and Somerset Police to tell them that Jefferies had been using his car on the night of 17 December, and a CID officer, DC Karen Thomas, was sent to Amsterdam to talk to him.

_____

The key issue is the nature of Mez' injuries. Her arms were wrenched behind her, as evidenced from autopsy injuries.

I thought you were relying on the number of injuries per se as somehow supporting your argument. Are you an expert on the interpretation of wound and/or bruise patterns? If so, I should be interested to hear of your credentials. If not, then you might like to refresh your memory of this passage from Massei:

The answer given above concerning the possibility of their being inflicted by the action of a single person or by more than one was given in relation to these specific duties and questions, which belong precisely to the domain of forensic science, and the meaning of this answer was thus that there are no scientific elements arising directly from forensic science which could rule out the injuries having been caused by the action of a single person.

Tabak pleaded guilty to manslaughter but not guilty to murder of which he was nevertheless convicted, just so you know.

 

[Caper]

Don't you think it odd Raff and Amanda have never started a campaign to "Find the Real Killers"?

Yeah. Odd. The killer is in jail.

 

[Grinder]

Nobody's forcing you, that's true.

 

[Grinder]

Police did find two sets of DNA they have never identified. Unless a DNA prototype is on a database, or they can match it to a suspect, it is of little value for now.

I recall that finger prints not matched were also found. The investigation was botched as the ISC has pointed out.

 

[Vixen]

Out of curiosity Vixen, can you recreate the crime as it unfolded?

Who physically did what to whom that led to Meredtih's death, and in what order?

Leaving aside motives and behaviors after the fact, how do you reconstruct the murder itself?

Mach did this for us once, and had Amanda and Raf stabbing Meredith and then, immediately running out of the room.

If you really believe Guede did not kill Meredtih alone, how do you visualize the crime occurring?

Rudy was hanging around the cottage and basket ball court, as seen on cctv. With no-one around he went to get a kebab and came back later.

In the meantime circa 8:45 Amanda replies to the text from Patrick, which she deletes, sent circa 8:17. The sms ping is near the cottage.

Popovic claims to have seen her at Raff's circa 8:40. Early reports had Amanda "just on her way out" which changed in court to her being on her pc and Raff in the loo.

Papa Raff rang 8:42 and claims Amanda was standing next to Raff. He later claims Raff spoke of having eaten and dealing with a leaky pipe under the sink whilst washing up. My view is, Papa Raff is not a reliable witness, like Amanda Mom Edda, who seem very keen to cover up for their kids at all costs.

At circa 8:45 Amanda and Raff both turned off their cellphones.

Later, Amanda could not remember if she ate before or during Amelie and claimed to have eaten circa 11:30.

It is very clear that the time of 8:40 to circa 9:20 is key to events that unfolded.

Mez made her way home circa 9:00. Cctv camera catches a figure
matching Rudy's description and clothing seeming to follow either Mez or Amanda in the front door.

IMV Kokomani's claims contain grains of truth, as well as Amanda's testimony of seeing Rudy (although she substitutes Patrick, cf Bruno-Marasca) at the basketball court. I believe Rudy, Amanda and Raff did lay in wait for Mez, with phones off and Amelie conveniently running in the background as their alibi.

IMV it happened as PM Mignini said. The three were bored and restless and planned a vampire-slaying party, with Mez as the victim. Mez got irate as she was tired out and wanted to study and have an early night.

Rudy wanted money for drugs and Amanda ripped €300 off Mez, so they could all get high. Kokomani and A N Other may also have been present initially. A dark car was independently seen in the drive which could match Raff's. The rent money in cash in Amanda's room remained untouched and Amanda failed to report this, despite reporting a burglary via Raff later.

Rudy claims Mez called Amanda a "drugged up tart" which has a ring of truth.

Amanda resented Mez, as the English can be frightfully haughty, and no doubt Mez was wary of her and the unwelcome sight of Rudy.

Using Mez' irritation as a pretext, the three of them cruelly tortured her in her room, as set out by pathologist Lalli. Amanda and Raff confirmed they were on drugs that evening, with each saying they'd never take drugs again. Mez was found to have a significant amount of alcohol in her system, so may have been forced to drink with her attackers, perhaps with the aim of seduction.

Rudy held Mez arms behind her back so roughly, hideous bruises were found on her elbows and her shoulder joint twisted to render her right arm useless. Amanda confronted her to her face, roughly covering Mez' mouth with her hand. When Mez screamed, she was so angry, she plunged a large knife in her neck as savagely as she could and tried to strangle her over her wound. Raff held one of his flick knives under Mez' chin and pulled her hair back. This enabled Rudy to freely assault Mez. As Amanda stabbed her from one side, Raff stabbed her from the other. This is widely depicted in vampire slaying manga.

When they saw what they had done, all three fled.

Rudy fled home. Raff and Amanda hovered around the piazza, and as witnessed by Curatalo, watching and waiting to see if Mez' scream had alerted anyone.


When they returned perhaps a couple of hours later, it was then Amanda saw the front door swinging open.

Whilst Rudy changed his pants and went to a nightclub disco, Amanda and Raff placed Mez' body on a sheet and moved her away from the wardrobe, perhaps with the intention of opening the door and placing her in it, although police claimed it was so the body could not be seen from the carpark (Richard Owen, TIMES).

Mez' jeans were pulled off. Raff told police she was wearing her ex-English boyfriend's jeans that day. They were not inside out. Her sweater was pulled off and her t-shirt pulled up. Her bra was ripped off, police believe with a sharp knife. Clothes cutting has a fetishtic aspect to the murder. Raff is a knife fetishist. His DNA was found on the braclasp, and Rudy's and Amanda's on the bra fabric. Amanda claimed she might have borrowed it.

Amanda lost an earring. She had several on each earlobe. She brought her lamp in from her room as "Mez lamp was dim" (as Rudy described it to police) to search for the missing item. The lamp was wiped clean of fingerprints, so it's likely all other areas pertaining to the pair were, too. The pair hatched a plot to leave obvious traces of Rudy there. A ladies size 37 footprint in blood was overlooked by the pair, as was a bloody footprint matching Raff's in Amanda's room.

They missed several footprints in the hall, which was a terracota colour. They overlooked Raff's footprint on the bathmat. Police believed Raff had a thorough shower there.

The pair staged a burglary, not realising it's actually quite a common ruse, as is pointing the finger at someone else.

Random bits of paper were scattered around to authenticate the scene, one of which had Amanda's footprint. A shard of glass from Filomena's room was found in Mez' room. Mixed Amanda and Mez DNA was found in Filomena's room, and no DNA at all of Rudy's. Bits of paper were on top of the duvet. It seems unlikely Rudy scattered it.

Next morning, the pair were waiting for the washing machine cycle to finish before going to Gubbio to let Filomena come home to find the body, when cops arrived before they had a chance to do their finishing touches. The lamp was still on the floor, much to Amanda's great embarrassment.

She did not list it as missing.

Amanda and Raff were anxious to show Napoleoni Rudy's kebab remains in the loo when she arrived.

They concocted a story about Amanda popping by to get clothes and shower to explain ringing Filomena from Raff's address and as a natural extension of being there all night.

That's my POV anyway. We won't ever hear another peek from Rudy as like Aviello and Kokomani, allegedly, he's probably been promised €100K to keep schtum. (Wild conjecture, here.)