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Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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I post the above summary from the ECHR's press release to inform readers here of how the ECHR evaluates alleged human rights violations (violations of the European Convention on Human Rigths).

There is relevance to the claim against Italy lodged by Amanda Knox, which alleges that Italy violated her Convention rights under Article 3 during her interrogation on Nov. 5-6, 2007, in which she claims that she was coerced, in part by police slapping and threats when under the control of the Italian police, to name Patrick Lumumba as Meredith Kercher's murderer.

In its case-law, the ECHR considers use of coercion by State authorities to extract statements or confessions that are then used for conviction as violations of Article 3 which make the conviction unfair under Article 6.

No doubt that the convention prohibits this sort of behavior.

Is there any information on timeliness of reporting the event formally and medical reports being generated?

Saïd and Mohamed Bouyid submitted that on 8 December 2003, while Saïd Bouyid had been
standing with a friend by the door of the building where he lived and ringing the bell to be let in as
he had forgotten his keys, a plain-clothes police officer had asked him to show his identity card. He
had refused to comply, asking the officer to show his credentials. The police officer had then
grabbed him by his jacket and taken him to the police station, placing him in a room where the
officer had slapped him in the face while he was protesting about his arrest. A medical certificate issued on the same day noted that Saïd Bouyid had been “in a state of shock” and had had erythema on the left cheek and in the area of the left ear canal. The following day, Saïd Bouyid filed a complaint with the Standing Committee for the Oversight of Police Services (“Committee P”) and was interviewed by a member of the investigation department.
 
There's only time for a couple of kicks at the cat in interpreting what Section 9 of the Marasca/Bruno report means. It is one thing for hardened guilters to interpret Section 9 as, "They got away with murder but here are the reasons still to suspect them....."

But consider the text and what it says.

Section 7 - the complete lack of meaningful scientific protocols in the investigation, returning meaningless "evidence" for the lower courts' evaluation. That the existence of a fact cannot be constructed out of meaningless evidence. Unreproducable tests cannot be used to safely convict people.

Section 8 - The insurmountable, logical barrier of Guede's forensic presence in the murder room, and the lack of AK/RS's, with the additional insurmountable logical barrier of a forensic-clean-up of 2 of 3 profiles. The "alleged bloody traces" in other parts of the cottage is an "obvious misrepresentation of the evidence." There is, therefore, a complete absence of an evidentiary framework on which to conclude guilt.

Section 9.2 sets out tat Marasca/Bruno hopes to accomplish with the remainder of the Motivations Report:

9.2 The aspects of the objectively contradictory nature [of evidence] can be, as
shown below, illustrated for each defendant, in a synoptic presentation of the elements favourable to the hypothesis of guilt and of the elements against it, as they are shown, of course, by the text of the challenged ruling and of the previous ones.​

9.3 discusses this hypothetical, namely the one where AK/RS might have been in the house at the time of the murder, yet still not legally accountable for it. For the "hypothesis of guilt" to work, Marasca is laying it out thusly.....

It's not enough to place them in the cottage at the time of the murder. I don't agree with that, personally, because adopting a passive behaviour, "without contributing to the crime", means that those passive individuals should be guilty of something, perhaps not murder itself.

But remember, Marasca is discussing this in the light of 9.2, which he says lays out a "synoptic" (with one eye) , "presentation of the elements favourable to the hypothesis of guilt and of the elements against it". He is not claiming these presentations of his are factual.

9.4 - Regardless of any hypothesis of guilt, the evidence says they were not directly involved in the murder. "This aforementioned negative circumstance accords with the fact, already highlighted, of the absolute impracticability of the posthumous clean-up hypothesis, removing some biological traces while leaving others."

9.4.1 - setting the hypothetical stage, Marasca reverses course. Marasca accepts one of those dreaded "judicial facts", so as not to be out of step with former rulings. "..... her presence in the house, the scene of the murder, is an acclaimed fact of the trial...." However, seen in the light of trying to harmonize the evidence with both the "hypothesis of guilt" as laidout in those courts, it is hard to believe that he, himself, believes this - given the trashing of the evidence, it's collection, and the judicial illogic which went before him.

Still, he's bound by judicial truths. He's bound by "Knox's calamnious statements regarding Lumumba, which led to her guilty verdict, with a
ruling already reached
....." Marasca could not be clearer - he must say this, not because it is factual, but because it is a judicial truth.

There is reason to believe that this is the way he deals with everything - even his proposition that Knox came into contact with Meredith's blood; I mean, how is that determined given the trashing Marasca gives to the forensics in sections prior to Section 9?

Proof that Marasca is still dealing with hypotheticals is his statement about why Knox would lie about Lumumba.

Nevertheless, the calumny in question also represents circumstantial evidence
against the appellant in so much as it could be considered as an initiative to cover for
Guede, against whom she would have had an interest to protect herself due to
retaliatory accusations against her.​

Marasca, prior to this, has established that the evidentiary framework simply did not exist to convict Knox (and Sollecito), yet here he is saying that her statements about Lumumba were to protect herself from Guede. How did she even know Guede ahd been involved? Why had both she and Sollecito originally insisted that the police notice the turd in the toilet - which, if this hypothesis of guilt holds - they must have known was Guede's?

Elements of "strong suspicion" favourable to the prosecution are discussed as well, where Marasca relies on the testimony of Antonio Curatolo (!) to place them in the Piazza.... and then Marasca ends this section (9.4.1.) with hypotheses favourable to the defendent.

What he's laying out is the synoptic evidentiary framework, which he's already says is illogical when pertaining to guilt. This synoptic (synthesized) hypothesis containing elements of both cannot stand.

9.4.2 continues this. Synthesizing the hyoptheses relating to both guilt or innocence produces this statement - "There remains, however, a strong suspicion that he was really present in the house on via della Pergola the night of the murder, at a time, however, that has not been possible to determine." In short, the evidentiary framework does not establish his guilt.

This leads to the conclusion of Marasca's hypothesizing of a synthesis of the already shaky evidence....

9.4.3. It can easily be observed that the conclusion that there was a lack of an
evidentiary framework consistent and sufficient to support the prosecution’s
hypothesis regarding the more serious case of murder certainly reverberates on the
residual, secondary accusations, listed here, d) theft of mobile phones and e)
simulation of a crime.​

...... in which he repeats the lack of an evidentiary framework, even as he's (supposedly) made statements implicating them.

The reason why Marasca, then, does not refer it to another trial, is because there simply is no evidence remaining. (This is Section 10).

This motivations report is unequivocal in it's view, notwithstanding the hypotheticals in Section 9.3ff. All of those sections need to be read in the light of 9.2.
 
One of my favorites:

while collecting a cigarette stub in the ashtray of the living room,
with biological traces showing a mixed DNA profile (of Knox and Sollecito), did not
perform any kind of analysis concerning the nature of the formulation [of the
content of the cigarette], for the reason that such an analysis would have made it
impossible to ascertain the genetic profile, making the sample “unusable”. And all this [was done] with the brilliant result of delivering to the trial a totally irrelevant piece of information, given that, obviously, Sollecito used to hang out at the house on via della Pergola, being in a relationship with the American girl; whereas, instead,
the identification of the nature of the sample could have, perhaps, suggested
investigative ideas of particular interest.
The remark above is emblematic of the overall structure of the part of the
challenged ruling concerning the reconstruction of the events, summarised in
Section 10 and having the title: conclusive evaluations

------------------------------------------------------------

In other words, the use of logic and
intuition cannot, in any way, compensate for the lack of evidence or the inefficiency
of the investigations. Faced with missing, insufficient or contradictory evidence, the
judge should simply accept it and issue a verdict of acquittal, according to Article
530, section 2 of the Italian Code of Criminal Procedure, even if he is really
convinced of the guilt of the defendant.
 
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Yes, Rudy is scum. As are his two accomplices.

I've been reading here for several years and have made many comments. I am not aware of any physical evidence that indicates that more than one assailant was inside the cottage the evening/night of the murder. There are many allegations that "evidence" exists but none of it, to my knowledge, stands up to scrutiny.

Bald claims and wishful thinking, Vixen, do not make it so.
 
I've been reading here for several years and have made many comments. I am not aware of any physical evidence that indicates that more than one assailant was inside the cottage the evening/night of the murder. There are many allegations that "evidence" exists but none of it, to my knowledge, stands up to scrutiny.

Bald claims and wishful thinking, Vixen, do not make it so.

As I've commented many times I think the defense went too strong on denying the possibility of multiple attackers. Reading of the wounds and the lack of evidence under her nails makes a case for others being there. But the lack of evidence in the murder room of either kid makes their involvement unlikely.

The PGP can't say that the kids could be the only accomplices as it is just as likely that someone else helped murder Meredith and didn't leave any DNA or that the ICSI boobs missed it or didn't report it.

As the ISC says the evidence is too weak and contradictory and the Nencini court should have found them not guilty under 530 paragraph 2.
 
No doubt that the convention prohibits this sort of behavior.

Is there any information on timeliness of reporting the event formally and medical reports being generated?
Saïd and Mohamed Bouyid submitted that on 8 December 2003, while Saïd Bouyid had been
standing with a friend by the door of the building where he lived and ringing the bell to be let in as
he had forgotten his keys, a plain-clothes police officer had asked him to show his identity card. He
had refused to comply, asking the officer to show his credentials. The police officer had then
grabbed him by his jacket and taken him to the police station, placing him in a room where the
officer had slapped him in the face while he was protesting about his arrest. A medical certificate issued on the same day noted that Saïd Bouyid had been “in a state of shock” and had had erythema on the left cheek and in the area of the left ear canal. The following day, Saïd Bouyid filed a complaint with the Standing Committee for the Oversight of Police Services (“Committee P”) and was interviewed by a member of the investigation department.

For your question, I assume you are referring to Amanda Knox. She wrote a Memoriale 1 on Nov. 6, 2007, and handed this document to the police. It stated, among other things, that she was not sure that her statements from the interrogation were reliable, and that she had been slapped on the head and threatened during the interrogation. No investigation was launched of her claims to have been abused or mistreated by police, to my knowledge, by the Italian authorities at that point, although that is their solemn obligation under the European Convention on Human Rights.

To my knowledge, there was no forensic medical exam by an independent source after the interrogation. As you may recall, Knox and Sollecito remained under police control, in custody without access to a lawyer, from Nov. 5 when they arrived at the police station, until Nov. 8, at their arrest hearing. And of course, they remained in custody for nearly the next 4 years. At any rate, is is quite possible that the slaps did not leave any visible bruising on Amanda. That degrading treatment was applied by the police may be inferred from her Nov. 6 statement against Lumumba, which she stated was unreliable in her Nov. 6 Memoriale 1 and indicated was untrue, based on her recovered memory, in her Nov. 7 Memoriale 2. There is allegedly no police recording of the interrogation to show that the Nov. 6 statement against Lumumba was an uncoerced voluntary one by Amanda Knox. In the ECHR, the burden of proof would be on Italy to show that somehow it was. This will be impossible for them, because they did not provide a lawyer for Knox at the time of interrogation. ECHR case-law insists that a lawyer be present during interrogations specifically to prevent coercive measures by police to obtain statements as well as to advise the interrogated person of the law.
 
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As of entering the Questura 5/6 Nov 2007, police had not identified Rudy. Naming Patrick at that point was a safety net until such time the excrement DNA was analysed.

Simpler explanation: During the late night interrogation the police incorrectly concluded that the recipient of the "see you later" text is the killer, and told Amanda (implied it or stated it outright to). The police fed the thought to her; it was their idea, not hers. They are responsible for it.

Amanda, for the first two hours of the interrogation, insisted through hostile interrogation that she was not at her cottage that night. It took Anna Donino's arrival and manipulative explanation to Amanda that she WAS there but did not remember it due to being traumatized to induce Amanda to believe her (correct) memory was wrong.

The recording will clear this up. Just listen to the recording.
 
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As I've commented many times I think the defense went too strong on denying the possibility of multiple attackers. Reading of the wounds and the lack of evidence under her nails makes a case for others being there. But the lack of evidence in the murder room of either kid makes their involvement unlikely.

The PGP can't say that the kids could be the only accomplices as it is just as likely that someone else helped murder Meredith and didn't leave any DNA or that the ICSI boobs missed it or didn't report it.

As the ISC says the evidence is too weak and contradictory and the Nencini court should have found them not guilty under 530 paragraph 2.

Those wounds could have been inflicted by one person.

There would be evidence under her nails only if she had scratched him. She didn't scratch him. Scratching implies that she was facing him. I don't know of any wounds that imply she was facing him in the struggle.

I think 1) he rapidly moved in on (surprised?) and grabbed her, 2) she turned or twisted to move away (flee) from him, 3) he got in back of her, 4) he grabbed her with one hand and put his knife to the side of her neck/throat with the other, 5) she either resisted/twisted into the blade and accidentally got scraped/cut or he deliberately cut her, 6) he cut/stabbed her several more times, 7) he constrained/struggled with her as she went to the floor. (She never stood face to face to him and scratched him; no assailant skin under her nails.)

Time necessary to surprise, attack, and inflict the worst wounds? As short as 10 seconds from entering the room to slicing/stabbing her 3 times at the neck and throat. (I think he had his knife out and in hand as soon as he heard someone enter the flat.)

If she did not know he was in the house, he could have taken her by surprise. He could have advanced through the doorway and been on her in 2 seconds. He was a trained semi-pro basketball player. He was trained to charge forwards 6 - 8 feet with his arms/hands forward/outstretched to contain the other player.

I don't recall reading of any furniture, bedding, etc. that she might have thrown up as a barrier to him coming towards her, which might have been a natural action to take if she saw/heard him coming and had a few feet head start between them. She did not grab anything to put between them, as far as I know. No desk chair pulled out, no lamp, no nightstand pulled forward from its normal position next to the bed, no textbook or purse thrown at him. She was taken by surprise in her bedroom.
 
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For your question, I assume you are referring to Amanda Knox. She wrote a Memoriale 1 on Nov. 6, 2007, and handed this document to the police. It stated, among other things, that she was not sure that her statements from the interrogation were reliable, and that she had been slapped on the head and threatened during the interrogation. No investigation was launched of her claims to have been abused or mistreated by police, to my knowledge, by the Italian authorities at that point, although that is their solemn obligation under the European Convention on Human Rights.

To my knowledge, there was no forensic medical exam by an independent source after the interrogation. As you may recall, Knox and Sollecito remained under police control, in custody without access to a lawyer, from Nov. 5 when they arrived at the police station, until Nov. 8, at their arrest hearing. And of course, they remained in custody for nearly the next 4 years. At any rate, is is quite possible that the slaps did not leave any visible bruising on Amanda. That degrading treatment was applied by the police may be inferred from her Nov. 6 statement against Lumumba, which she stated was unreliable in her Nov. 6 Memoriale 1 and indicated was untrue, based on her recovered memory, in her Nov. 7 Memoriale 2. There is allegedly no police recording of the interrogation to show that the Nov. 6 statement against Lumumba was an uncoerced voluntary one by Amanda Knox. In the ECHR, the burden of proof would be on Italy to show that somehow it was. This will be impossible for them, because they did not provide a lawyer for Knox at the time of interrogation. ECHR case-law insists that a lawyer be present during interrogations specifically to prevent coercive measures by police to obtain statements as well as to advise the interrogated person of the law.

To the above, to answer any potential defense by Italy that Amanda Knox had volunteered the statement against Lumumba of her own free will, or had come to the police station with the intention of making a statement implicating Lumumba, the ECHR will consider, among other evidence, the testimony of VQA Giobbi, the high-ranking (equivalent in rank to the chief of police of Perugia) police officer from the SCO. He stated that he had ordered Sollecito and Knox brought in for a special type of questioning. He also testified that he heard Knox crying or screaming during the interrogation - thus there is a police witness, and one of very high rank, stating that Knox was under emotional distress during this questioning.

Furthermore, a high ranking Perugian police officer (the chief of police, IIRC) allegedly stated at the press conference after the arrests words to the effect that "Knox had buckled and told us what we knew"; if this statement was documented in the Italian media (for example), the ECHR would be able to make inferences from it, since, of course, the details of Knox's statement were untrue but apparently represented a police theory of the crime. This is a not untypical feature of coerced statements.

Another piece of evidence supporting an ECHR finding that there was a pattern of police mistreatment related to the interrogations and arrests was the report in the media, for example, the Daily Mail, claiming that Lumumba had stated that he was rather severely mistreated by the police upon his arrest.
 
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To the above, to answer any potential defense by Italy that Amanda Knox had volunteered the statement against Lumumba of her own free will, or had come to the police station with the intention of making a statement implicating Lumumba, the ECHR will consider, among other evidence, the testimony of VQA Giobbi, the high-ranking (equivalent in rank to the chief of police of Perugia) police officer from the SCO. He stated that he had ordered Sollecito and Knox brought in for a special type of questioning. He also testified that he heard Knox crying or screaming during the interrogation - thus there is a police witness, and one of very high rank, stating that Knox was under emotional distress during this questioning.

Furthermore, a high ranking Perugian police officer (the chief of police, IIRC) allegedly stated at the press conference after the arrests words to the effect that "Knox had buckled and told us what we knew"; if this statement was documented in the Italian media (for example), the ECHR would be able to make inferences from it, since, of course, the details of Knox's statement were untrue but apparently represented a police theory of the crime. This is a not untypical feature of coerced statements.

Another piece of evidence supporting an ECHR finding that there was a pattern of police mistreatment related to the interrogations and arrests was the report in the media, for example, the Daily Mail, claiming that Lumumba had stated that he was rather severely mistreated by the police upon his arrest.

Knox wrote in her first memorial, written a few hours after the interrogation, that she had been hit (twice). Her complaint is documented in the memorial she gave to Mignini. Could one reason she was held incommunicado for several days be that Mignini or police authorities wanted to keep evidence of the hits from a lawyer, independent doctor, her mother, US Embassy, or media for a few days so that any possible bruising heal before she is seen by a non-police party. Had word of police hitting her gotten out at the time, there would have been tremendous pressure for a lawyer, doctor, parent, or Embassy official to get access to her. This was Napoleoni's, de Felice's, or Mignini's coverup.

Perhaps when it is known that a detainee is complaining of physical abuse and the controlling authorities fail to provide immediate medical examination, a court should infer that the abuse did occur. Withholding instant medical attention until injuries subside should be interpreted as destruction of evidence. Make it a "judicial fact".
 
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As of entering the Questura 5/6 Nov 2007, police had not identified Rudy. Naming Patrick at that point was a safety net until such time the excrement DNA was analysed.

Vixen, on what basis do you claim that the police by the night of Nov 5/6 had not identified Rudy (as a person of interest)? Certainly the 4 guys living downstairs provided police with the names of people who had been around or on the property. If the police thought there was African hair at the crime scene, then the police would have had an interest in Rudy.
 
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As I've commented many times I think the defense went too strong on denying the possibility of multiple attackers. Reading of the wounds and the lack of evidence under her nails makes a case for others being there. But the lack of evidence in the murder room of either kid makes their involvement unlikely.

The PGP can't say that the kids could be the only accomplices as it is just as likely that someone else helped murder Meredith and didn't leave any DNA or that the ICSI boobs missed it or didn't report it.

As the ISC says the evidence is too weak and contradictory and the Nencini court should have found them not guilty under 530 paragraph 2.

I hardly think that any evidence obtained from Kercher's room "makes a case" for multiple attackers - the lack of evidence of others prevents such a case being made.

If, as you say, "the lack of evidence in the murder room of either kid makes their involvement unlikely" (Marasca says "impossible), then does it not also make the involvement of anyone else equally unlikely (or impossible)?

I grant you of course, that the absence of physical evidence of others does not preclude the possibility that one or more others were off scene plotters or accomplices.
 
I hardly think that any evidence obtained from Kercher's room "makes a case" for multiple attackers - the lack of evidence of others prevents such a case being made.

If, as you say, "the lack of evidence in the murder room of either kid makes their involvement unlikely" (Marasca says "impossible), then does it not also make the involvement of anyone else equally unlikely (or impossible)?

I grant you of course, that the absence of physical evidence of others does not preclude the possibility that one or more others were off scene plotters or accomplices.

Other than it is a judicial fact imported from Guede's trial there were persons other than Guede who participated in the crime, there is really no evidence to support this.

The defence were in a difficult position. That the multiple attackers had been established as a judicial fact this limited the defence strategy. I do not think that the defence ever led a lone wolf theory, the defence instead tried to show that the evidence incriminating their clients was subject to alternative interpretations.
 
Other than it is a judicial fact imported from Guede's trial there were persons other than Guede who participated in the crime, there is really no evidence to support this.

The defence were in a difficult position. That the multiple attackers had been established as a judicial fact this limited the defence strategy. I do not think that the defence ever led a lone wolf theory, the defence instead tried to show that the evidence incriminating their clients was subject to alternative interpretations.

Yes. The importation of another defendant's trial conclusions into A and R's trial was a violation of their right to a fair trial. Hellmann just parked it. Now, Marasca has acknowledged it and let it sit without letting it affect his own response.
 
This point, no PGP, court or Italian prosecutor has ever come close to understanding or rebutting.

There is no possible explanation for the naming of Lumumba consistent with an interpretation of guilt. If Amanda were guilty then all she needed to do was say nothing at all in the interrogation or simply refute what was being put to her or, alternatively, finger Guede in such a manner that did not put her at the crime scene. As you suggest, immediate arrest was the ONLY possible outcome for doing what she did. Therefore, she cannot have done it knowingly. She cannot have been a master manipulator, murderer and an idiot all at the same time.

But she is none of these. The naming of Lumumba or, rather, the signing of the police statement and the later 5:45 statement, is evidence of innocence.

According to Bruno & Marasca Patrick and Rudy were interchangeable in Amanda's mind. They pontificate she named Patrick to cover up for Rudy in case any witness had seen a Black guy come out of the cottage. <shrug>
 
Well, her self-description is, "stupid liar".

Have a go, vixen, at explaining what exactly, according to you, was Amanda's plan in the interrogation, with naming Lumumba AND placing herself in the flat.

Why didn't she just say nothing? The police could not have arrested her.

What could she possibly have hoped to gain by what she did?
 
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