Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[analemma]

Amanda and Raff had bare footprints which showed up in luminol and the footprint on the bathmat was identified by a police forensic expert as Raff's. There was also a Raff luminol footprint in Amanda's room, so likely the pair were naked, having sex and incited Rudy to join in their degeneracy by attacking Mez, as premeditated.

No evidence of any of this BS
You are making stuff up out of nothing
We all know it
You must have a fixation on Rudys DNA

 

[Vixen]

Imagine yourself, innocent of the murder but imprisoned for years for a murder you did not commit. The state threatened to put you back in prison. How would you feel?

Do you understand empathy, a normal human emotion?

It's nothing to do with going to prison. You fail to understand the principle of receiving justice.

As for sentencing, I am all for rehabilitation, further education and parole. However, not for a remorseless borderline criminal psychopath (like the Scream murderer who still insists he's innocent). Throw away the key. These monsters are not fit to be let loose on society.

 

[Vixen]

If it happened in the US Meredith's murderer would have gotten exactly what he deserved.

Yep, life without parole, or Old Smokey, with a 13-step appeal process, which includes owning up to your crime (cf Frederick Baer death row, Indiana).

 

[Vixen]

So they were naked in Kercher's room, were they?

Gosh, there must be so much evidence of Amanda and Raffaele next to and around the body....oh wait...no. There wasn't any. A fact which the Marasca court said demonstrated that it was impossible for them to have committed the murder.

Bruno did mention perhaps the executioners (and it was an execution, implying premeditation) were carefully attired to avoid leaving traces.

He might be bent, but he's not stupid!

 

[Vixen]

This exemplifies the problem with the pro-guilt argument.
"to take a shower (police disbelieve she took any shower when she claims she did)'. It does not matter what the police (wrongly) believed; it is what they can prove. The prosecution has to build case based on evidence to prove guilt BARD. The defence are not required to prove innocence. There is no evidence Knox did not take a shower. In any case it makes no material difference whether she did or not.

"didn't notice her lamp missing" again what is the evidence her lamp was missing? The prosecution never argued this, probably because the police themselves moved the lamp to provide light while avoiding touching the lamp / light switch in Kercher's room.

"they do not believe Amanda felt fear", Indeed Knox never claimed she felt fear at that point.

"Not hard to spot the anomalies." Which is what you expect. There is a large amount of scientific literature showing how bad humans are at observing. http://www.theinvisiblegorilla.com/gorilla_experiment.html The lack of anomalies would be suspicious. What is striking is that the case is full of amateur psychology, but where are the professional psychology assessments? Knox underwent a psychological assessment, it did not report any psychopathology.

We wouldn't know, would we, as it remains confidential.

 

[Vixen]

So, what was it that made your mind up since you joined the forum in a state of indecision about this case?

This is great stuff. A Booker prize if not a Pulitzer. 'Affable foppish patsy'. Wow.

Fop became a pejorative term for a foolish man overly concerned with his appearance and clothes in 17th-century England. Some of the very many similar alternative terms are: "coxcomb", fribble, "popinjay" (meaning "parrot"), fashion-monger, and "ninny".

How's your courtroom franglais thriller coming along? Popinjay: I like it! Note to self: insert in next conversation. Pop-in-jay.

You saw Raff in his white Warren "You're so vain" Beatty outfit, and coxcomb Duran Duran fringe.

Bloody ninny.

 

[anglolawyer]

How's your courtroom franglais thriller coming along? Popinjay: I like it! Note to self: insert in next conversation. Pop-in-jay.

You saw Raff in his white Warren "You're so vain" Beatty outfit, and coxcomb Duran Duran fringe.

Bloody ninny.

Thanks for asking. I'm still in the planning stage. I value your encouragement.

You didn't answer my question.

 

[Vixen]

Great stuff, Vixen. I'm fascinated by the complexity of it all. Given your idea that she lied about the events of the morning, it's quite fun to try to work out why she came up with the story of the open door, going back and forth etc. I don't follow the cunning thing with Rudy. Are you saying they wanted the police to catch him but didn't want to name him themselves because that would give away their own involvement? It's just that you have her both 'covering up' for and 'fingering' Rudy in the same post.

As of entering the Questura 5/6 Nov 2007, police had not identified Rudy. Naming Patrick at that point was a safety net until such time the excrement DNA was analysed.

 

[Vixen]

Thanks for asking. I'm still in the planning stage. I value your encouragement.

You didn't answer my question.

The sheer lack of any alibi, reasonable explanation for the literally numerous lies by Raff and Amanda, or any indication of innocence at all.

Your defense of the pair is based on a tall story of a rogue forensic scientist designing Raff's DNA to attach to the braclasp and an evil prosecutor, who, remembering the "ugly American" Doug Preston in his face, on seeing Amanda, was overcome by an irrational extreme hatred of all Americans, and, instead of doing his job and finding the killers, concentrated all his efforts in framing aforesaid loud, slutty, ugly American hellbent on corrupting the purity of good Catholic Italian youth.

 

[anglolawyer]

As of entering the Questura 5/6 Nov 2007, police had not identified Rudy. Naming Patrick at that point was a safety net until such time the excrement DNA was analysed.

How exactly did the safety net work? I don't quite get the analogy. The result of naming Patrick was immediate arrest and incarceration for four years so whatever the strategy was it didn't pan out well. Anyway, you said (in the same post) they 'covered up' Rudy's involvement and that they 'fingered' him too. I should be grateful if you would explain what you mean as these activities seem inconsistent with each other.

The sheer lack of any alibi, reasonable explanation for the literally numerous lies by Raff and Amanda, or any indication of innocence at all.

Got it, thanks. I take it you learned about these things after showing up here claiming to be undecided (that was actually my question)

Your defense of the pair is based on a tall story of a rogue forensic scientist designing Raff's DNA to attach to the braclasp and an evil prosecutor, who, remembering the "ugly American" Doug Preston in his face, on seeing Amanda, was overcome by an irrational extreme hatred of all Americans, and, instead of doing his job and finding the killers, concentrated all his efforts in framing aforesaid loud, slutty, ugly American hellbent on corrupting the purity of good Catholic Italian youth.

That's amazing! That is exactly my theory! This is almost clairvoyant. It's certainly way beyond Mensa.

 

[Kauffer]

Bruno did mention perhaps the executioners (and it was an execution, implying premeditation) were carefully attired to avoid leaving traces.
He might be bent, but he's not stupid!

The careful attire must have included those jet pack devices from "Back to the Future", which would have permitted A and R to hover in the room, because they left no prints on the floor.

And what did the report actually say, vixen?

 

[Grinder]

I agree that the bra clasp has been explained as a non credible piece of evidence that's not criminally probative. But that's not the same as explaining specifically how the result was generated.

For example, I am satisfied with the explanation for the knife DNA being a minute trace of LCN Kercher DNA contaminating the lab equipment.

I am not satisfied with the bra clasp explanations, ranging from glove to door to clasp, to Raffaele touching Meredith who later touches the clasp, etc. None of it seems very likely to me. Outright fraud seems slightly more likely but we'll never know for sure.

Some maintain that no DNA was found on the knife. I agree with your thoughts on both the knife and the bra clasp, except that the other traces make some sort of contamination likely. I also thought the clasp the most likely plant in the case but certainly not done well, if planted.

Completely innocent contamination has happened before
http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_26055401/san-jose-case-casts-doubts-dna-evidence

Important cite - thanks

 

[Grinder]

That seems to be taken from Massei.

Wrong, Nencini as the question was did Marasca get it from Nencini.

 

[Grinder]

Please don't assume that because Amanda and Raffaele are continuing to live free that they are "getting on with their lives", implying that both are doing well. Both innocent defendants have been seriously harmed by the failures of the Italian justice system. A few years ago Amanda flew to NY to appear for a television news interview. She disclosed later that she was in such deep pain in her hotel room that night that she cried and cried through late at night, so much that the person in a nearby hotel room worriedly called hotel security thinking that someone was hurt. Someone was. Brave public comportment does not mean that the two innocent victims of this monstrous miscarriage of justice are "doing well and getting on with their lives". The public does not see them during the dark hours.

Yes and those that look at the MR and don't see that it leaves shadows also like the Emperor's new clothes.

 

[JREF2010]

Please don't assume that because Amanda and Raffaele are continuing to live free that they are "getting on with their lives", implying that both are doing well. Both innocent defendants have been seriously harmed by the failures of the Italian justice system. A few years ago Amanda flew to NY to appear for a television news interview. She disclosed later that she was in such deep pain in her hotel room that night that she cried and cried through late at night, so much that the person in a nearby hotel room worriedly called hotel security thinking that someone was hurt. Someone was. Brave public comportment does not mean that the two innocent victims of this monstrous miscarriage of justice are "doing well and getting on with their lives". The public does not see them during the dark hours.

A great reminder that the crime tourists aren't aware of the reality.
The sloppy work, the incompetent , and probably corrupt, prosecutor.
It always leads me back to the darkness of the interrogation, the black hole the Perugia pack still hide and protect the lie.

 

[Kauffer]

How exactly did the safety net work? I don't quite get the analogy. The result of naming Patrick was immediate arrest and incarceration for four years so whatever the strategy was it didn't pan out well. Anyway, you said (in the same post) they 'covered up' Rudy's involvement and that they 'fingered' him too. I should be grateful if you would explain what you mean as these activities seem inconsistent with each other.

This point, no PGP, court or Italian prosecutor has ever come close to understanding or rebutting.

There is no possible explanation for the naming of Lumumba consistent with an interpretation of guilt. If Amanda were guilty then all she needed to do was say nothing at all in the interrogation or simply refute what was being put to her or, alternatively, finger Guede in such a manner that did not put her at the crime scene. As you suggest, immediate arrest was the ONLY possible outcome for doing what she did. Therefore, she cannot have done it knowingly. She cannot have been a master manipulator, murderer and an idiot all at the same time.

But she is none of these. The naming of Lumumba or, rather, the signing of the police statement and the later 5:45 statement, is evidence of innocence.

 

[Dougm]

Raff has a strategy, which has paid off for now, of distancing himself from it all. As long as people think of Amanda as the baddie, then he can pretend he was just the patsy who got caught up in it, a ruse papa Raff suggested early on (there was a furious exchange of phonecalls between him and his boy the morning of 2nd Nov 2007).

The stuff about, "I wish I had never met Amanda" or "She asked me to lie for her about going out that evening", was just Raff following his papa's suggestion of blaming it all on her. Problem is, he can't name Amanda blatantly, for she would soon reveal "all" about him, if she were convicted, and him not. So we have witnessed an entertaining version of The Prisoners' Dilemma between the pair of them, each subtly threatening to throw the other "under the bus", hence Amanda's dark hints about seeing blood on the back of Raff's hand or his rubbing her fingerprints onto the knife whilst she slept. Note her informing the police of his drug habits and mental health issue with depression.

Both said they'd never take drugs again, after the murder.

Clues come from the police and prosecutor. It was Raff who came under the greatest police suspicion, not Amanda. They were certinly convinced of his involvement. You only have to watch the video of their search of his apartment. PM Mignini described Raff as "icy cold" in his closing submissions to Matteini, as well as bringing in the manga aspect Marilyn Manson fan worship, not to mention his knife fetish. Bearing in mind Raff being a middle-class young Italian man, the claim police were burning with desire to pursue "the American Witch" can be seen to be the distraction it really is, as put forward by Friends of Amanda, when in truth, police were pretty sure of Raff's culpability.

When Stefanoni carried out the DNA testing, she was not to know in advance the defense expert would not turn up, so IMV it is really reaching to imagine Stefanoni could manufacture Raff's DNA out of thin air. Remember, she is Italian and so is he. No "Ugly American" prejudice there, as FOA keep claiming as the motive for police framing them.

I see Raff and Amanda as two immature thrillseekers, together with Rudy, all reckless, irresponsible bored youth looking for kicks. After halloween Rudy made a video in which he pulled grotesque faces and rolled his eyes back saying he wanted to drink a vampire's blood. Raff's manga book found at his apartment, Blood the Last Vampire was set at halloween and was about a female vampire slayer.

Kokomani who was near the cottage on the eve of the murder, as per cctv and witnesses who saw his vehicle, told police he witnessed the three drugged up to the eyeballs, hiding behind the cottage bins and wielding a large knife. Like Aviello, he, too, claimed he'd been offered €100,000 to drop his evidence on behalf of the police. There are Raff and Amanda's social media pages. There are independent sources testifying to Amanda's reckless behaviour with sex, drugs and money, and Raff's extreme FB pics and comments.

So, no, not an unusual psycho murder insofar there have been several by unbalanced youth, the guy who had never had a girlfriend, Cho of Virginia Tech who could not make friends, the Scream murderers, only 16 at the time, who killed a classmate for sheer fun and videoed themselves bragging about it (and which got them convicted), one of whom claims to be innocent, then we had high school shooters in Finland, weird youths with guns, copying Columbine and Virginia Tech. Meaningless, trite, futile murders of random innocent peers who had never done anything to them, except exclude them from decent social circles because of their erratic egregious behaviour.

No, IMV Raff did not act alone with Rudy, with Amanda covering up because she witnessed it. OTOH he definitely isn't the affable foppish patsy he presents himself as. I can quite see him as a ruthless killer who did it for kicks. Their justification being they were bored, it was halloween and they imagined Mez to be the vampire and themselves the vampire slayers, possibly under the influence of LSD or perhaps cocaine or "speed", which enabled them to stay up all night plotting what to do about their crime.

They have no alibi, Raff refused to give evidence, and their sole defense seems to be "We know you know we did it, but you can't prove it. Ha!"

REALLY?????

Too bad there is no evidence to support any of this fantasy you've come up with.

 

[Numbers]

Slapping by law-enforcement officers of individuals under their control amounts to degrading treatment


In today’s Grand Chamber judgment in the case of Bouyid v. Belgium (application no. 23380/09) the European Court of Human Rights:

held, by a majority, that the slap which the applicants had received from police officers while under their control at a police station had undermined their dignity and that there had been a violation of Article 3 (prohibition of inhuman or degrading treatment) of the European Convention on Human Rights in that they had been subjected to degrading treatment;

held, unanimously, that the applicants had not had the benefit of an effective investigation and that there had been a violation of Article 3 of the Convention on that account.

The case concerned an allegation by two brothers, one of whom was a minor at the time, that two police officers had slapped them in the face while they were under the officers’ control at their family’s local police station in the district of Saint-Josse-ten-Noode (Brussels).

The Court found in particular that the slapping had undermined their dignity. It also observed that the subsequent investigation had not been effective, that the investigating authorities had failed to devote the necessary attention to the applicants’ allegations and that the length of the investigation had been unreasonable.

The Court reiterated that even in the most difficult circumstances, the Convention imposed an absolute prohibition on torture and inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, irrespective of the conduct of the person concerned. In a democratic society ill-treatment was never an appropriate response to problems facing the authorities.
__________
I post the above summary from the ECHR's press release to inform readers here of how the ECHR evaluates alleged human rights violations (violations of the European Convention on Human Rigths).

There is relevance to the claim against Italy lodged by Amanda Knox, which alleges that Italy violated her Convention rights under Article 3 during her interrogation on Nov. 5-6, 2007, in which she claims that she was coerced, in part by police slapping and threats when under the control of the Italian police, to name Patrick Lumumba as Meredith Kercher's murderer.

In its case-law, the ECHR considers use of coercion by State authorities to extract statements or confessions that are then used for conviction as violations of Article 3 which make the conviction unfair under Article 6.

 

[Mike1711]

It's nothing to do with going to prison. You fail to understand the principle of receiving justice.

As for sentencing, I am all for rehabilitation, further education and parole. However, not for a remorseless borderline criminal psychopath (like the Scream murderer who still insists he's innocent). Throw away the key. These monsters are not fit to be let loose on society.

Strange?
AK and RS seem to be doing quite well in society since their release from wrongful incarceration.
AK's biggest crime since release is to have sung karaoke and RS for having maybe driven a sportscar.
The dark side of sociopaths and psychopaths are not usually so benign.

 

[Mike1711]

As of entering the Questura 5/6 Nov 2007, police had not identified Rudy. Naming Patrick at that point was a safety net until such time the excrement DNA was analysed.

Ah, yes. The excrement DNA. So AK deliberately didn't flush the lavatory in order that after fingering Patrick she would get caught out? Brilliant.