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Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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You're no Machiavelli. Unlike Mach you have 'fessed up to the litany of mistakes you've made. Okay, okay, that was unkind and I withdraw it. But like Lloyd Benson said, "I've met Mach, I've worked with Mach, and you, sir, are no Mach."



Making a "big deal" out of something is not the same as ferreting out, "what it means."

Why on earth is Raffaele coming with Amanda for her 10:30 shower, "a key part of the story"? So what? So after this previously unknown dual-trip to the cottage they (very hypothetically) went back to Raffaele's, still a little stumped as to the condition of what they'd seen there - the condition of which alarmed neither Filomena nor the Postal Police. (Please remember, it was not the condition of the cottage which alarmed Filomena - not even the mess in her room - it was that Meredith was without her phones.)

Why would two wholly innocent people lie? Why is it a "lie"? Knox had forgotten one of her calls to her mother. So? They question might also be asked, why would two wholly innocent people forget? Guilty people would more than likely remember rehearsed parts of their alibi.

It is exactly as you say.... where did the Marasca court get this from? Well, for my money they got it from a hypothetical that it was perhaps useless to try to rule out Raffaele's presence at the cottage from perhaps 9 pm Nov 1st, to 12:55 pm Nov 2, the bookends of that period being Jovovich coming to Raffaele's door at 8:35 pm on Nov 1, and the Postals actually seeing him there just before 1 pm on Nov 2 like Massei said.

This hypothetical proves nothing. The question is: why do Italian judges always seem compelled to include these sorts of hypotheticals with no further explanatory text?

It's as if Marasca had made book with Bruno about the ISF/JREF continuations, "Hey Gennero, I bet if you put some vague something-or-other in your report, those English speaking loons on ISF will make it to the 25th Continuation."

Nencini did it. All of a sudden with nothing said about it before - not police, not prosecution - Nencini sees Raffaele's DNA on the kitchen knife. Nencini must have looked in another striation, different from the one that Stefanoni say and no one else did.

Dude - if you're going to "do" Machiavelli, you're going to have to try harder!

I dont agree with most of this. First of all, the morning of the 2nd is key because their actions and explanations that day have to make sense. Second, if, which I do not believe, they concealed Raffaele's presence on the first trip (which they could not credibly claim to have forgotten, as you suggest) it would mean they gave deliberately false accounts and that would immediately give rise to the questions: why and what else did they lie about?

I think it would be quite serious. Therefore, it's serious that the ISC, whose job is presumably not to gratuitously smear innocent people, said it and I am curious to know where it came from having never encountered the idea before.
 
Well I was trying to compare their thinking on the issues. I'm saying that while they truly believe there were multiple attackers (by Cheli's reading) that they may only be saying that Raf was there to help mesh with other verdicts. Just a comment.
AFAIK there are no other verdicts with which this point is required to mesh. But, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Massei said it. Does the ISC have to mesh with Massei?




Not exactly. While I do seem to remember someone making the point it could be just a PGP. I did add the prosecutors to Nencini as that would be another source for them.

I said I'd look at Nencini later.

They may have made it up out of whole cloth.
Yeah, well, that's what I want to know.
 
I dont agree with most of this. First of all, the morning of the 2nd is key because their actions and explanations that day have to make sense. Second, if, which I do not believe, they concealed Raffaele's presence on the first trip (which they could not credibly claim to have forgotten, as you suggest) it would mean they gave deliberately false accounts and that would immediately give rise to the questions: why and what else did they lie about?

I think it would be quite serious. Therefore, it's serious that the ISC, whose job is presumably not to gratuitously smear innocent people, said it and I am curious to know where it came from having never encountered the idea before.

I'll grant you one thing. The ISC hearing is not one which receives claims from one side or the other of direct evidence, in the manner in which it is cross-examinable, and full disclosure is made. So why just chuck in this factoid?

Ok, two things - it's a claim which comes out of thin air, unless someone - PGP or PIP or just plain bored - can point to something in a previous court, or an investigative tidbit which never made it to a judge. Something. Anything.

What your hypothetical speaks to is the ISC's reckless regard for simply chucking in a factoid to their narrative, even if only as a hypothetical. Not the presumed factual nature of Raffaele being there. It must be a symptom of the ISC not being accountable to anyone, save for their anal-retentive urge not to conflict with former ISC definitive rulings.

They really DO want this thread unto the 25th continuation. That's as good a speculation as any, that some punter in Vegas is giving odds on ISF's longevity and Marasca stands to make a few Euro on the side.
 
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I hadn't come to the first highlight in my perusal of the MR (I had only scanned it before) which certainly is a strong statement of what #2 means to these judges. The phrase "even if he is really convinced of the guilt of the defendant" pretty much says it all.

The second highlight doesn't appear in my translation using "which" or "witch"?
Grinder
I thought that that statement was the strongest statement in the Motivation.

I should not have put quotes around the "witch" statement, since it is the words that I thought that they should use to describe the gist of the Motivation. Sorry.
Analemma
 
I'll grant you one thing. The ISC hearing is not one which receives claims from one side or the other of direct evidence, in the manner in which it is cross-examinable, and full disclosure is made. So why just chuck in this factoid?

Ok, two things - it's a claim which comes out of thin air, unless someone - PGP or PIP or just plain bored - can point to something in a previous court, or an investigative tidbit which never made it to a judge. Something. Anything.

What your hypothetical speaks to is the ISC's reckless regard for simply chucking in a factoid to their narrative, even if only as a hypothetical. Not the presumed factual nature of Raffaele being there. It must be a symptom of the ISC not being accountable to anyone, save for their anal-retentive urge not to conflict with former ISC definitive rulings.

They really DO want this thread unto the 25th continuation. That's as good a speculation as any, that some punter in Vegas is giving odds on ISF's longevity and Marasca stands to make a few Euro on the side.

I entirely agree. It was gratuitous and also poorly-reasoned. They don't offer any reason why this lie might have been conjured up. Did Amanda even have her phone with her? Maybe it was charging at Raf's place. Maybe she left him sleeping and saw no reason to wake him up. Maybe she figured there was no point in phoning given he was only 5 minutes away and she was heading right back. IOW there is nothing so unnatural about her not calling him as to force the conclusion that he was there (doing what?).
 
The motivation was written by design. They protected all involved while confirming the release of Knox and Sollecito. They did so by placing a cloud of confusion over the entire case. In the end, they did what was right but neither side will ever have the definitive words they are looking for. The pro-guilt crowd will pull the sentences they feel support their case, but it's just a waste of time. The case is closed. Knox and Sollecito are free forever.

The decision of the court is all that matters in the end. Did the court need to rehash the opinions of the prior court rulings in order to cloud the message? I don't think so. But they did it. I can live with that, because their final decision was correct.

The ISC has given fuel to forums like this one, leaving just enough confusion to keep the fight going for the few who are still interested. The bottom line is that the motivation can be debated until the end of time. No one is going to budge. It's like pushing up against a brick wall expecting it to move. Good luck with that.

On a personal note, I do find humor in the fact that the pro-guilt side has relied so much on the work of Yummi/Mach, a person who has been thoroughly discredited on this forum for years. I know I should not be entertained but I am.
 
I thought so too. I did tweet one of the guys and they are receptive and want me to email them a longer response. I'm trying to come up with some points. I follow the case enough to know when someone is wrong about a specific issue, but not enough to be able to articulate why they are wrong.

Like when they say Amanda didn't appologize to Patrick. I thought she did. But am not sure where I heard it.

2nd. There is something about the part about Sollecito's DNA on the bra clasp they got wrong... Or at least didn't consider.

Anyway. I'm going to come up with a decent response. Hopefully some others will help and find some other issues they got wrong.

Just send these guys the section I quoted from the motivation, and there is no shortage of "glaring mistakes" and other bad things mentioned my be ISC to describe the judges and cops.
The two guys are clueless, Amanda apologized to Patrick in her final statement to the Hellman court, I QUOTE, at
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/AmandaStatement.html
Patrick? I don't see you. But I'm sorry. I'm sorry because I didn't mean to do wrong to do you. I was very naïve and not courageous at all; I should have been able to withstand the pressures that caused me to do harm to you. I didn't mean to contribute to what you have suffered. You know what it means to have unjust accusations imposed on your skin. You didn't deserve what you experienced and I hope you will be able to find peace.
The PGP, and Patrick, still lie and say that she never apologized!!!!

They mentioned about the dirty Gloves and sneered, but they should have just quoted the Motivations, I quote again;
"More unusual – and disturbing – is the fate of the bra clasp.
Noticed during the first site inspection by the Scientific Police, the object was ignored and left there on the floor for quite some time (a good 46 days), until it was finally collected during an additional visit. It is certain that in the time period between the site inspection when it was noticed and the one when it was collected, there were other visits by the investigators, who rummaged everywhere, moving furniture and fixtures, in search of evidence that would be useful to the investigation. The clasp was perhaps trodden on or, in any case, moved (such that it was found on the floor in a different position from where it had initially been noticed). Not only this, but the photographic documentation produced by Sollecito’s defence demonstrates that, at the time of the collection, the clasp was passed"
The Motivation has some real heavy duty damning quotes.
 
You can also read what Luca has written as a reference to the thrust of the report itself. As in, following the acquittal the report is not "a clear cut, one-sided proclamation of innocence". I hardly see that you can read into the language that Luca's view is that A and R are less than innocent, or whatever you said. Indeed, it may well be the case that some reports generated after a 530:2 are indeed a "proclamation of innocence". It would not be "expected" according to Luca, but he does not preclude the possibility.

I most certainly did not contend that you feel their innocence is in question. I contended exactly what you said.

You're right you added a whatever.

It is simply not correct to state that the court has left "innocence in question". You are falling into the PGP trap. You have no competent citation that addresses the point and you seem to have allowed the Tonini opinion to pass right over your head. It says, effectively: "Some people will talk about this; we should take away their opportunity to do so".

Yes he says there shouldn't be lesser forms of not guilty which proves there are lesser forms as Cheli indicates, as the language of the law indicates but you seem trapped by the PI spin.

Also, I repeat, constitutionally, they are presumed innocent until or unless there is a final confirmation of guilt. The device that the Marasca court has used is the only one available to them under the code, but in the body of the report, they demolish the prosecution case. You wish to argue about the device. It makes no sense to do so because the device states that they "did not commit the act". It is no less a full acquittal than para 1. And as Luca has commented, it is clear that the court had to avoid a judicial conflict. But, of course, as a result, some small group is going to say that since Guede committed this crime "with others" and A and R were the only "others" in the frame, then Bob's your Uncle. But, Bob isn't your uncle - not at all.

They are presumed innocent before and during the trial in theory. Do you think most people actually think people taken to trial are innocent. This MR says that they were found guilty #2, they were at the cottage during the murder, that they lied about where Raf was, etc. but you say there is no difference between #1 acquittal and a #2. Okay.

With a para 1 aquittal because the court decides a murder was actually a natural death, there will certainly be people who will say that the court got it wrong. There are still people who argue the world is flat and God is in his heaven. We can do nothing about them and nor should we bother trying - although the American "museums" displaying children playing with dinosaurs should probably be closed down.

Silly. The whole the earth is flat meme was created in the late 18 hundreds. As Steven J Gould says, maybe at the time of Columbus there were a few Bavarian farmers that didn't know the world was round. But one wouldn't need to be as dense as a Bavarian farmer to wonder about the guilt or innocence after the verdict and MR. There is no doubt if a court finds that the person is not guilty because they didn't commit the crime that is a stronger statement than not guilty because the evidence is lacking or contradictory.

The acquittal verdict and report taken together is actually stronger, I feel, than a U.S. or UK aquittal. But they are all BARD standard. Are you really willing to join a chorus proclaiming that every single aquittal in your own country leaves "innocence in question"? If so, what flows from that?

Many not guilty verdicts leave doubt. If we had two levels of not guilty and the court choose the one that left it more in doubt, that would heighten my doubt and most people's doubt.

Do you think there is more a guilty shadow with a "not proven" verdict than a "not guilty" in systems that allow those verdicts.
 
There is important news from the ECHR on a case relevant to AK - RS case:

CASE OF BOUYID v. BELGIUM [GC] 23380/09 28/09/2015

The ECHR has judged that Belgium violated the Convention rights, under Article 3, of the Bouyid brothers in that in two separate instances, a police officer slapped one of the Bouyid brothers while that person was in a police station for an identity check or other instance of police custody that was not a formal arrest. The slaps were considered instances of degrading treatment, which is prohibited by Convention Article 3. The violations were found in both the substantive and procedural branches: that is, the police were found to have committed the acts, and the Belgium authorities then failed to conduct an effective investigation into the Bouyid's allegations.

There are many ECHR statements in Bouyid relevant to the Amanda Knox case, and possibly to Raffaele Sollecito's questioning on Nov. 5/6 as well.

For example:

100. As the Court has pointed out previously (see paragraph 88 above), where an individual is deprived of his or her liberty or, more generally, is confronted with law-enforcement officers, any recourse to physical force which has not been made strictly necessary by the person’s conduct diminishes human dignity and is in principle an infringement of the right set forth in Article 3 of the Convention.

101. The Court emphasises that the words “in principle” cannot be taken to mean that there might be situations in which such a finding of a violation is not called for, because the above-mentioned severity threshold (see paragraphs 86-87 above) has not been attained. Any interference with human dignity strikes at the very essence of the Convention (see paragraph 89 above). For that reason any conduct by law-enforcement officers vis-à-vis an individual which diminishes human dignity constitutes a violation of Article 3 of the Convention. That applies in particular to their use of physical force against an individual where it is not made strictly necessary by his conduct, whatever the impact on the person in question.


The text of the judgment is on:
http://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng…

This was an important case which has been given a webcast:

http://echr.coe.int/sites/search_eng/pages/search.aspx…
 
I entirely agree. It was gratuitous and also poorly-reasoned. They don't offer any reason why this lie might have been conjured up. Did Amanda even have her phone with her? Maybe it was charging at Raf's place. Maybe she left him sleeping and saw no reason to wake him up. Maybe she figured there was no point in phoning given he was only 5 minutes away and she was heading right back. IOW there is nothing so unnatural about her not calling him as to force the conclusion that he was there (doing what?).

While better reasoned, is this not akin to the Ontario Appeals Court (in the Kish case) virtually writing in their Reason for Judgement that Woolley was all-but-convictable of the Hammond murder? Is not that, too, gratuitous and completely beside the point as to the matter before them?

In Canada, trial courts always have to write their reasons (except for in jury trials which have no rhyme or reason) to be as appeal-proof as possible. However, provincial appeals' courts can afford to be a bit sloppy because while there is a theoretical possibility of it going to the Supreme Court of Canada, in practise only 90 or so cases a year make it that far. A substantial number of these cases are of a constitutional nature where some level of government is requesting legal clarity on something. Provincial appeals courts are in practise the last stop.

So the Ontario Appeals Court could, possibly, get away with just chucking something in like that, knowing there is no further legal recourse. I think.

Didn't even Hellmann refer to some formerly unknown item?
 
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The motivation was written by design. They protected all involved while confirming the release of Knox and Sollecito. They did so by placing a cloud of confusion over the entire case. In the end, they did what was right but neither side will ever have the definitive words they are looking for. The pro-guilt crowd will pull the sentences they feel support their case, but it's just a waste of time. The case is closed. Knox and Sollecito are free forever.

The decision of the court is all that matters in the end. Did the court need to rehash the opinions of the prior court rulings in order to cloud the message? I don't think so. But they did it. I can live with that, because their final decision was correct.

The ISC has given fuel to forums like this one, leaving just enough confusion to keep the fight going for the few who are still interested. The bottom line is that the motivation can be debated until the end of time. No one is going to budge. It's like pushing up against a brick wall expecting it to move. Good luck with that.

On a personal note, I do find humor in the fact that the pro-guilt side has relied so much on the work of Yummi/Mach, a person who has been thoroughly discredited on this forum for years. I know I should not be entertained but I am.

I've budged! Was roundly criticized for it, too!

It is priceless that as the PGP crowd continue their PR campaign, they rely on Yummi/Machiavelli. If entities like Loyola actually DO pull back the curtain on the comment-bombing by the usual suspects, they'll find that what undergirds this conspiracy-theory is a US Media campaign mediated through the Masons. (BTW - when Yummi denied tweeting Port a Porta and then denied doing it, some enterprising Twitterer forwarded me the actual series of tweets. Hoots!)

Despite its deficiencies, all the legal beagles at Loyola will do is compare the conspiracy-theory side-by side with the Marasca report - if it even goes that far. Heaven help us if they wander here, to the ISF thread....
 
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While better reasoned, is this not akin to the Ontario Appeals Court (in the Kish case) virtually writing in their Reason for Judgement that Woolley was all-but-convictable of the Hammond murder? Is not that, too, gratuitous and completely beside the point as to the matter before them?

In Canada, trial courts always have to write their reasons (except for in jury trials which have no rhyme or reason) to be as appeal-proof as possible. However, provincial appeals' courts can afford to be a bit sloppy because while there is a theoretical possibility of it going to the Supreme Court of Canada, in practise only 90 or so cases a year make it that far. A substantial number of these cases are of a constitutional nature where some level of government is requesting legal clarity on something. Provincial appeals courts are in practise the last stop.

So the Ontario Appeals Court could, possibly, get away with just chucking something in like that, knowing there is no further legal recourse. I think.

Didn't even Hellmann refer to some formerly unknown item?

In the Kish appeal, the judges succumbed to the temptation to be clever and think up their own stuff. Maybe the Italians were doing the same. It must be something about law that makes its practitioners so unbearably arrogant.
 
AFAIK there are no other verdicts with which this point is required to mesh. But, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Massei said it. Does the ISC have to mesh with Massei?

Yeah, well, that's what I want to know.

I found this:

It can in addition be sustained that, after her attempt to shift responsibility for the murder of Meredith Kercher onto the innocent party Patrick Lumumba had failed miserably, Amanda Marie Knox provided a reconstruction of the facts, averred to by the co-accused Raffaele Sollecito, that objectively constitutes a false alibi for both of the accused, in the sense that from 9:00/9:30pm on 1 November 2007 to the morning of 2 November 2007, Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Marie Knox were not in fact sound asleep in the apartment at 130, Via Garibaldi but rather, on the contrary, spent the night in full activity, so much so that Amanda Marie Knox was observed by Mr. Quintavalle at 7:45 am on the morning of 2 November 2007, as a person [143] who was displaying obvious signs of exhaustion [“ (…) – Let’s say she entered like this, she looked at me, I repeat, a bit like this, with this very white skin. I was struck because she seemed to me, that is she had an extremely exhausted expression according to me…but it’s quite normal, because sometimes a person comes [to the shop] in the morning after going dancing or partying or something.” See the Marco Quintavalle witness statement cited above].

In the first telephone call the defendant made to Filomena Romanelli she clearly said that she would go back to Raffaele’s place to tell him about the strange things discovered in the apartment, and then return with him to check the situation. This was said by the defendant to Filomena Romanelli, who related this in a precise manner in the course of the trial. Well, this circumstance is clearly false, since when Amanda Marie Knox made the first call to Filomena Romanelli at 12:08:44 pm on 2 November 2007 she was at Raffaele Sollecito’s apartment at 130 Via Garibaldi and not at 7 Via Della Pergola. This fact is certain because it is gleaned from the telephone records, as has been already been said, and specifically from the fact that the telephone call above connected to the cell that served precisely 130 Via Garibaldi, a cell that is not within reach of anyone who would have been at 7 Via Della Pergola.

and this

Therefore, it is reasonable to attempt a reconstruction of what actually happened on the morning of 2 November 2007, completely adhering to the court data, and in line with the circumstantial framework already highlighted in the preceding sections. [174]
Amanda Marie Knox and Raffaele Sollecito made a first telephone call from their residence to Meredith’s English service, in order to check that the telephones, thrown away the night before in open country (or rather what they thought to be open country) had not been found.
From Raffaele Sollecito’s residence, and not from Via della Pergola as Amanda Marie Knox explicitly stated by telephone to Filomena Romanelli, the latter was put on the alert with the aim of provoking her return to the dwelling, where Meredith’s body would have been discovered, not by Amanda Marie Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, but in the presence of other witnesses, who could have confirmed the simulation of the furtive entrance of the assailant through the window of the bedroom used by Filomena Romanelli.

At 12:34:56 pm of 2 November 2007 the two defendants were contacted by the telephone call of Ms. Romanelli whom they told about the presumed burglary, so as to provoke her return to the cottage. A very few minutes went by while the two defendants were probably deciding what to do, when the unexpected arrival of Inspector Battistelli created a sudden intrusion. The police were not expected, because nobody had yet called the police forces, and the two defendants were not aware of the reasons for their intervention.
Amanda Marie Knox and Raffaele Sollecito therefore found themselves faced with a situation which they had not anticipated, which was not planned, and which required immediate countermeasures. The officers were thus directed to see what must have seemed to them the scene of a robbery, and they were reassured about the fact that the Carabinieri had been advised, and that therefore their presence was not absolutely necessary. But the two policemen had not arrived there by chance, since they were looking for Filomena Romanelli who lived there, and so they did not go away. They stayed on the scene even when Ms. Romanelli, her friend Paola Grande, and young women’s two fiancés arrived. In the meantime Raffaele Sollecito was seeing to the making of the calls to 112, preceded by the one to his sister, while Amanda Marie Knox, at 12:47:23 pm was calling her mother’s American telephone service, talking with her for 88 seconds.
It is to be observed how nobody took any notice of the movements of the two defendants in the half hour which went by from the arrival of Inspector Battistelli and when, presumably around one in the afternoon, the door of Meredith Kercher’s room was broken down and the body was discovered.


Seems Nencini said neither was there until after noon. So Raf was with her the first time she went there.
 
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The motivation was written by design. They protected all involved while confirming the release of Knox and Sollecito. They did so by placing a cloud of confusion over the entire case. In the end, they did what was right but neither side will ever have the definitive words they are looking for. The pro-guilt crowd will pull the sentences they feel support their case, but it's just a waste of time. The case is closed. Knox and Sollecito are free forever.

The decision of the court is all that matters in the end. Did the court need to rehash the opinions of the prior court rulings in order to cloud the message? I don't think so. But they did it. I can live with that, because their final decision was correct.

The ISC has given fuel to forums like this one, leaving just enough confusion to keep the fight going for the few who are still interested. The bottom line is that the motivation can be debated until the end of time. No one is going to budge. It's like pushing up against a brick wall expecting it to move. Good luck with that.

On a personal note, I do find humor in the fact that the pro-guilt side has relied so much on the work of Yummi/Mach, a person who has been thoroughly discredited on this forum for years. I know I should not be entertained but I am.

The question is: can they live with it? Being out of jail is better than being in jail but being free from the cloud of suspicion is also better than the opposite. You don't have to live the rest of your life with people pointing fingers, as they will. The ISC had no need to invent spurious new points just to prove how smart they are. Fortunately, the headlnes will likely be what most remember and their theme seems to have been that the case was just a total crock. It's a pity that those who look deeper will have something to chew on. That didn't have to happen.
 
The question is: can they live with it? Being out of jail is better than being in jail but being free from the cloud of suspicion is also better than the opposite. You don't have to live the rest of your life with people pointing fingers, as they will. The ISC had no need to invent spurious new points just to prove how smart they are. Fortunately, the headlnes will likely be what most remember and their theme seems to have been that the case was just a total crock. It's a pity that those who look deeper will have something to chew on. That didn't have to happen.

I know you're not specifically in this territory but whether or not they can live with it might be none of our business.

Given the tenor of the headlines in Italy - if anyone can find anything different, please post it - Raffaele seems to be headed for the next 2/3s of his life relatively free from fingerpointing. Aside from the odd shrub-counter in Seattle, they've there long since figured this out. And the sitz im leben there is sufficiently odd anyway, that one more person with oddness on their resume is not going to cause the West Coast to slide into the Pacific, which, BTW is nice this time of year.

By all accounts the principals seem far more beyond this than us. And everyone concerned other than those of us who continue to comment is on to other things.

At least the Seahawks are 1-2 and the 49ers are in comparison, tanking.
 
The question is: can they live with it? Being out of jail is better than being in jail but being free from the cloud of suspicion is also better than the opposite. You don't have to live the rest of your life with people pointing fingers, as they will. The ISC had no need to invent spurious new points just to prove how smart they are. Fortunately, the headlnes will likely be what most remember and their theme seems to have been that the case was just a total crock. It's a pity that those who look deeper will have something to chew on. That didn't have to happen.

It requires the ECHR judgement. Then and only then will the last of the doubters (the sane ones) be persuaded. Importantly, Amanda will probably come to value the ECHR report more than Marasca's. The insane doubters will probably argue that Gogerty Marriott bought Strasbourg.
 
It requires the ECHR judgement. Then and only then will the last of the doubters (the sane ones) be persuaded. Importantly, Amanda will probably come to value the ECHR report more than Marasca's. The insane doubters will probably argue that Gogerty Marriott bought Strasbourg.

They only bought controlling interest. Why should they buy the whole thing?
 
It requires the ECHR judgement. Then and only then will the last of the doubters (the sane ones) be persuaded. Importantly, Amanda will probably come to value the ECHR report more than Marasca's. The insane doubters will probably argue that Gogerty Marriott bought Strasbourg.

Here is another relevant quote from Bouyid v Belgium [GC] 23380/09:

86. Ill-treatment must attain a minimum level of severity if it is to fall within the scope of Article 3. The assessment of this minimum depends on all the circumstances of the case, such as the duration of the treatment, its physical or mental effects and, in some cases, the sex, age and state of health of the victim (see, among other authorities, Ireland v. the United Kingdom, cited above, § 162; Jalloh, cited above, § 67; Gäfgen, cited above, § 88; El-Masri, cited above, § 196; and Svinarenko and Slyadnev, cited above, § 114). Further factors include the purpose for which the ill-treatment was inflicted, together with the intention or motivation behind it (compare, inter alia, Aksoy v. Turkey, 18 December 1996, § 64, Reports 1996‑VI; Egmez v. Cyprus, no. 30873/96, § 78, ECHR 2000‑XII; and Krastanov v. Bulgaria, no. 50222/99, § 53, 30 September 2004; see also, among other authorities, Gäfgen, cited above, § 88; and El-Masri, cited above, § 196), although the absence of an intention to humiliate or debase the victim cannot conclusively rule out a finding of a violation of Article 3 (see, among other authorities, V. v. the United Kingdom [GC], no. 24888/94, § 71, ECHR 1999‑IX; and Svinarenko and Slyadnev, cited above, § 114). Regard must also be had to the context in which the ill-treatment was inflicted, such as an atmosphere of heightened tension and emotions (compare, for example, Selmouni, cited above, § 104; and Egmez, cited above, § 78; see also, among other authorities, Gäfgen, cited above, § 88).

87. Ill-treatment that attains such a minimum level of severity usually involves actual bodily injury or intense physical or mental suffering. However, even in the absence of these aspects, where treatment humiliates or debases an individual, showing a lack of respect for or diminishing his or her human dignity, or arouses feelings of fear, anguish or inferiority capable of breaking an individual’s moral and physical resistance, it may be characterised as degrading and also fall within the prohibition set forth in Article 3 (see, among other authorities, Vasyukov v. Russia, no. 2974/05, § 59, 5 April 2011; Gäfgen, cited above, § 89; Svinarenko and Slyadnev, cited above, § 114; and Georgia v. Russia (I), cited above, § 192). It should also be pointed out that it may well suffice that the victim is humiliated in his own eyes, even if not in the eyes of others (see, among other authorities, Tyrer v. the United Kingdom, 25 April 1978, § 32, Series A no. 26; and M.S.S. v. Belgium and Greece [GC], no. 30696/09, § 220, ECHR 2011).

88. Furthermore, in view of the facts of the case, the Court considers it particularly important to point out that, in respect of a person who is deprived of his liberty, or, more generally, is confronted with law-enforcement officers, any recourse to physical force which has not been made strictly necessary by his own conduct diminishes human dignity and is, in principle, an infringement of the right set forth in Article 3 (see, among other authorities, Ribitsch, cited above, § 38; Mete and Others, cited above, § 106; and El-Masri, cited above, § 207).

89. The word “dignity” appears in many international and regional texts and instruments (see paragraphs 45-47 above). Although the Convention does not mention that concept – which nevertheless appears in the Preamble to Protocol No. 13 to the Convention, concerning the abolition of the death penalty in all circumstances – the Court has emphasised that respect for human dignity forms part of the very essence of the Convention (see Svinarenko and Slyadnev, cited above, § 118), alongside human freedom (see C.R. v. the United Kingdom, 22 November 1995, § 42, Series A no. 335‑C; and S.W. v. the United Kingdom, 22 November 1995, § 44, Series A no. 335‑B; see also, among other authorities, Pretty v. the United Kingdom, no. 2346/02, § 65, ECHR 2002‑III).
 
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Here is another relevant quote from Bouyid v Belgium [GC] 23380/09:

Numbers, is there anything from this case which might help us understand how or why the ECHR reached a conclusion that the conduct of the authorities was proven to the court's satisfaction? How were they persuaded? What defence, if you know, did Belgium put up to the claim?
 
Numbers, is there anything from this case which might help us understand how or why the ECHR reached a conclusion that the conduct of the authorities was proven to the court's satisfaction? How were they persuaded? What defence, if you know, did Belgium put up to the claim?

This case concerns the treatment of two men, Mr Saïd Bouyid and Mr Mohamed Bouyid (“the applicants”), while in police custody in Belgium. The applicants are represented by: Mr Z. Chihaoui and Mr C. Marchand, lawyers practising in Brussels.

The applicants are brothers, they live with their parents, brother and two sisters next to the local police station of Saint-Josse-ten-Noode. They both complained that they had been slapped on the face by police officers while in police detention in two separate occasions - one on 8 December 2003, the other on 23 February 2004. This allegation is disputed by the Government. They contend that the events took place in the context of tense relations between their family and certain officers in the police station, including alleged police harassment.

At the European Court of Human Rights, the applicants argued that slapping constituted ill-treatment, being degrading treatment, and therefore was an infringement of the right not to be subjected to torture or inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment (Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights). They further complained about the investigation into their complaints, describing it as ineffective, incomplete and biased.

The European Court of Human Rights acknowledged that in respect of a person deprived of his liberty, any recourse to physical force which has not been made strictly necessary by his own conduct diminishes human dignity and is in principle an infringement of the right set forth in Article 3 (Ribitsch v. Austria, 4 December 1995, § 38, Series A no. 336; El Masri v. “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” [GC], no. 39630/09, § 207, ECHR 2012). However, the Court went on to say that in order for ill-treatment to fall within the scope of Article 3 it must attain a minimum level of severity. Accordingly, some forms of violence, although they may be condemned on moral grounds – they may not constitute a violation of article 3 of the Convention.

There was a further referral.

ETA from the referral:

The Court’s usual approach in Article 3 cases is to consider whether the pain and suffering inflicted
attained a minimum level of severity. The assessment of the minimum level of severity depends on all
the circumstances of the case, such as the duration of the treatment, its physical or mental effects and,
in some cases, the sex, age and state of health of the victim.5 However, this Court has also held that
there are circumstances where proof of the actual effect on the person may not be a significant factor.
In relation to detained persons, unless their conduct is harmful to themselves or others and/or requires
forceful intervention in accordance with clearly established limitations, any other arbitrary, unjustified
and unnecessary use of force inherently diminishes human dignity and is in principle an infringement
of the right set forth in Article 3.6 The seriousness of the use of any amount of force is heightened
where there are other factors of vulnerability or discrimination.
 
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