• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Jeremy Bamber

AL is agreeing with you, DF, that it is almost impossible to stage a murder/ suicide and get away with it. Bamber came close, but he didn't get away with it.....(if he is guilty, that is, which I am becoming increasingly sure of).

Have you ever played a game of laser tag or paint ball?

Do you think after fighting for 15 minutes, you could switch your mind into staging the suicide and making these calls?

The other issue is that you have to know that Shelia will cooperate with the simulated suicide. She may go crazy on you and attack, especially if she thinks you are threatening her kids.
 
Telephone calls on the night of the crime

For me, these calls are the clincher. Unlike the moderator, the evidence is not easy to dismiss as being tainted by corruption or bungling.

A key part of his idea was the call from Nevill to himself. In plan A, this call was to have been made by a hit man who was to be instructed which of the preset buttons to use on the cordless phone, which would retain a memory of the call, before letting himself out by the secret window which could be shut from the outside so as to appear locked. Source: Julie Mugford (creative minds who think the police planted her story are free to try and explain why they inserted this bit).

Plan A was modified with the hit man being replaced by Jeremy himself. It's not difficult to think if a couple of reasons for that but the result was a serious timing issue. He seems to have thought the time of the call from WHF to his place would be accessible in the records (it doesn't appear he was right about that, Heaven knows why not) so that time would be fixed and he would have to work around it to explain why his call to the police was not immediate. This was how he did it:

(i) he would try to call back but would find it impossible because the phone was off the hook - that could be said to consume a few minutes

(ii) then he would call Julie, feigning concern about the peculiar message received from Dad and she would advise him to call the police. Another few minutes.

(iii) then he would call the local nick (possibly wasting even more time by calling Witham police station, getting no answer there, and then calling Chelmsford - a point proved by Ann Eaton but negligently not put to Bamber by the useless cops - see page 26 of her 8th Sep statement, linked below) after looking the number up in the telephone directory. In interview, he estimated this had taken '10 minutes at the outside' to look up the number and another 5 waiting for the cops to answer the phone. I find this alone utterly incredible. A 999 call would have taken seconds. He expected to be believed in claiming that he spent 15 minutes gaffing about calling the locals when he had a vastly more efficient alternative.

Did he call the police or Julie first?

In this statement given on 7th August (the day the bodies were found) he says he immediately called the police - see page 6.

In his statement of 8th September, however (given under caution, after Julie had shopped him) he reversed the order. See page 6. He said he was on the phone to her for about 'two minutes not very long as I had to call the police'. On the same page he records how long it took looking everything up and hanging on etc.

In a further statement given on about 10th September, the cops pinned him down on this. See pages 15 et seq (it goes on for a few pages). They drew his attention to what he had first said and what he later said.

The problem is there is no satisfactory answer to the question. Whether he called her first or second the call looks suspicious and, being a clever person, he realised his difficulty but, not being quite clever enough, he had no way out of it and had to fall back on being unable to remember the sequence.

The next statement to consider was given by Ann Eaton on 8th September 1985. This key document contains a wealth of detail but most importantly, records her recollections of the morning of the 7th August spent at Goldhanger (Bamber's place). You can find it here (sorry I can't cut and paste from these but they are all jpegs or something). It gets interesting around page 25.

One data point to note is Bamber telling the police that Nevill called at 3.00 a.m. He said he checked the time with his watch (and the suspicious Ann made a mental note that he must have been wearing his watch in bed :jaw-dropp).

She observes that he did not mention the call to Julie at all (a fact I do not find at all suspicious in itself). On p.27 is the thing I mentioned before about him not speeding to the farm because he feared a trick - so that's where that comes from.

What time did Bamber call Julie?

The evidence about this is summarised by the court in his 2002 appeal, which is here.

At about 9.50 p.m. on Tuesday, 6 August the appellant telephoned Miss Mugford. During their conversation that evening he said he was "pissed off" and had been thinking about the crime all day and that it was going to be "tonight or never". The following morning she was awoken by a telephone call from the appellant to her lodgings in London. The appellant said to her, "Everything is going well. Something is wrong at the farm. I haven't had any sleep all night … bye honey and I love you lots". Miss Mugford did not take him seriously and went back to sleep. As to the timing of this call, Miss Mugford said in evidence said that it was between 3.00 and 3.30 a.m.
A number of Miss Mugford's housemates were disturbed by the telephone call and provided additional evidence as to timing. One, Helen Eaton, had been consulted by Julie Mugford, when the latter was first making a statement to the police about it. She put the time at 3.00 a.m. in evidence but agreed in cross-examination that it might have been as late as 3.30 a.m.
Another flat mate, Sue Battersby, said that she was positive that when she was disturbed, she had looked at her clock and the time shown was 3.12 a.m. However, she pointed out that she was in the habit of keeping her clock about 10 minutes early and police checks made on the clock confirmed this to be the case. If her evidence was right and if the clock was, as the evidence suggested, ten minutes fast, the time was probably no more than a minute or two after 3 a.m.
Joanna Woad gave evidence that when she heard the telephone, she looked at her digital clock and all that she noted was that the time was 2 something. This meant that according to her clock the time was between 2.00 and 2.59 a.m. If it was at the end of that bracket, it differed very little from the time suggested by Susan Battersby's evidence.


The balance of that evidence is to put the call closer to 3.00 p.m. than 3.30 (or actually 3.36 since this is the time Bonnet noted as the time he took PC West's call and Bamber was on the other end of West's line at the time). That suggests he called Julie first and, to me, that he probably intended to use that call to help fill in the time he needed to fill as explained above.

There is a pro-innocence argument here, namely that if the call from WHF was really made at 3.00 and Bamber had called Julie at 3.02 or only a few minutes after then he could not be guilty because he couldn't be in two places at the same time. However, in that scenario, it is simply impossible to fill the time between c. 3.02 and 3.26. Bamber certainly does not offer either a credible or even a complete explanation for the delay.

Therefore, taken together with other things, he is most probably guilty.
 
I am not understanding the argument.
Lets try to simply this a little and then fill in details
1. What time was the "Neville call" recorded by the cops as being?
2. What time was the call by Jeremy to the cops recorded as being?

As far as wearing a watch, I have worn a watch when I sleep pretty much from around 16 onward. Sometimes I will take it off but it is rare.
 
I am not understanding the argument.
Lets try to simply this a little and then fill in details
1. What time was the "Neville call" recorded by the cops as being?
2. What time was the call by Jeremy to the cops recorded as being?

As far as wearing a watch, I have worn a watch when I sleep pretty much from around 16 onward. Sometimes I will take it off but it is rare.

There was no Nevill call but the piece of paper it's protagonists rely on records a time of 3.36 a.m. I know people wear watches in bed. That's not the point. The point is Bamber said his dad called at 3.00 and if he is to be believed he has 26 minutes to account for. See if you can do it.
 
just reading the last couple posts about times of calls. No one offered phone records as evidence?
 
There was no Nevill call but the piece of paper it's protagonists rely on records a time of 3.36 a.m. I know people wear watches in bed. That's not the point. The point is Bamber said his dad called at 3.00 and if he is to be believed he has 26 minutes to account for. See if you can do it.

I honestly think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

just reading the last couple posts about times of calls. No one offered phone records as evidence?

Back in 1985 in the US, land line calls which were not long distance would have no record. I suspect that it would be the same in the UK
 
Back in 1985 in the US, land line calls which were not long distance would have no record. I suspect that it would be the same in the UK


Nope. Not the same. The reason there were no records in the US was that local landline calls were entirely free of charge. In 1985, that was not the case in the UK. Every single landline call - no matter what distance - was charged on a timed basis (with different rates for local and national calls). Therefore, the exchange would without doubt have generated a billing record of all landline calls, including number dialled and call duration.

As an aside, I remember this case from the time, and have read a few things about it in passing over the years (in addition the flat that Bamber burgled in Morshead Mansions in Maida Vale is quite near me). I am of the pretty confident opinion that he is factually guilty of the crime, though the catalogue of errors and omissions from Essex Police are pretty eye-opening. IMO it's only these errors which have even opened the door the tiniest bit for Bamber to pursue a campaign for wrongful conviction. I believe he's a true psychopath, and as such he might even have genuinely convinced himself that this was somehow Sheila Caffell's "fault", and that he was somehow only a bit-part player (c.f. another murderer in Italy.....).
 
Last edited:
Nope. Not the same. The reason there were no records in the US was that local landline calls were entirely free of charge. In 1985, that was not the case in the UK. Every single landline call - no matter what distance - was charged on a timed basis (with different rates for local and national calls). Therefore, the exchange would without doubt have generated a billing record of all landline calls, including number dialled and call duration.

Why did neither side produce call records then. Also, how were they generated - computer I assume?
 
Nope. Not the same. The reason there were no records in the US was that local landline calls were entirely free of charge. In 1985, that was not the case in the UK. Every single landline call - no matter what distance - was charged on a timed basis (with different rates for local and national calls). Therefore, the exchange would without doubt have generated a billing record of all landline calls, including number dialled and call duration.........

So it is beyond astonishing that these phone records weren't part of the evidence presented at trial.
 
On anglolawyer's recommendation, I have just bought this book. Keep the conversation going for a week or so, and I'll be back with some informed questions :)
 
Nope. Not the same. The reason there were no records in the US was that local landline calls were entirely free of charge. In 1985, that was not the case in the UK. Every single landline call - no matter what distance - was charged on a timed basis (with different rates for local and national calls). Therefore, the exchange would without doubt have generated a billing record of all landline calls, including number dialled and call duration.

As an aside, I remember this case from the time, and have read a few things about it in passing over the years (in addition the flat that Bamber burgled in Morshead Mansions in Maida Vale is quite near me). I am of the pretty confident opinion that he is factually guilty of the crime, though the catalogue of errors and omissions from Essex Police are pretty eye-opening. IMO it's only these errors which have even opened the door the tiniest bit for Bamber to pursue a campaign for wrongful conviction. I believe he's a true psychopath, and as such he might even have genuinely convinced himself that this was somehow Sheila Caffell's "fault", and that he was somehow only a bit-part player (c.f. another murderer in Italy.....).
I don't think he burgled 2 Morshead Mansions, LJ. That flat was bought for Sheila and used by Bamber in the weeks after the murders. You may be thinking about the Osea Road caravan park office which he and Mugford burgled in April 1975, pinching £970 and staging a forced entry (in fact Bamber unlocked the door by reaching through the letter box for a key and then smashing a window).
 
So it is beyond astonishing that these phone records weren't part of the evidence presented at trial.

It is indeed and it's good that LJ has shown up because he knows about this stuff. As important as the facts of data storage and retrieval are, equally important is what Bamber believed to be the case, because he had to factor in the possibility that exact times were recorded.

Incidentally, while Desert Fox may consider these things of no significance, I believe one of the things Bamber needed time for was to clean himself up. Ann Eaton was surprised to discover when attending Goldhangar on the morning of the 7th that there no towels in the bathroom and the shower hose was not in its holder (don't suppose she was in a suspicious frame of mind or anything .. ) and Julie (just being helpful, no doubt) told her this was normal and that Bamber never had towels in the bathroom.
 
.........Incidentally, while Desert Fox may consider these things of no significance, I believe one of the things Bamber needed time for was to clean himself up..........

Look out! New theory-by-Mike.....

The reason, therefore, that he drove so slowly to the farm was that his hair was still wet, which would arouse suspicion in the small hours of the morning. I'll bet he had the car windows open, the fan on full, and the heater turned up to full blast.
 
Look out! New theory-by-Mike.....

The reason, therefore, that he drove so slowly to the farm was that his hair was still wet, which would arouse suspicion in the small hours of the morning. I'll bet he had the car windows open, the fan on full, and the heater turned up to full blast.

That is bloody good IMO. But would he not have dried his hair as thoroughly as possble with the discarded towels?
 
Look out! New theory-by-Mike.....

The reason, therefore, that he drove so slowly to the farm was that his hair was still wet, which would arouse suspicion in the small hours of the morning. I'll bet he had the car windows open, the fan on full, and the heater turned up to full blast.

No. While LJ lived near Morshead Mansions I lived in the place at the time of these events (true) so we are two totally different people. I even know who lives in that flat now.
 
That is bloody good IMO. But would he not have dried his hair as thoroughly as possble with the discarded towels?

Of course, but towel-dry hair is still damp. If he had been disturbed from a night's sleep (no doubt his claim), then he would have had dry disheveled hair.
 
Last edited:
No. While LJ lived near Morshead Mansions I lived in the place at the time of these events (true) so we are two totally different people. I even know who lives in that flat now.

I think you're quoting the wrong post here.
 

Back
Top Bottom