Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vixen]

No, I'm not. A complete reading of Cheiffi would not lead one to the idea that V&C did anything false and unethical. But hey, if I'm wrong, all you need to do is cite the appropriate passages.

Shan't.

 

[Grinder]

I've never read that. Citation.

She recounted that Raf had told her about drug experimentation he had done in the past. I think it was in her prison diary.

 

[Vixen]

<SNIP>

Hey, I'm weird. So are you. Sometimes that's a good thing.

Edited by jsfisher: 

Moderated content removed.

Speak for yourself.

 

[NotEvenWrong]

Not so. There are academic texts, and then there are mass maket paperbacks intended for the commercial market. Newton wrote at a time when only the learned read books anyway.

Yes, and Dr. Gill (one of the top forensic geneticist's in the field and one of the founding fathers of the entire discipline) wrote an academic text. Here is what the Forensic Science Review says about the book:

"...a book that should be read by all who work in DNA laboratories...there are 12 recommendations that make up preventative actions in the book’s corrective action plan...both interesting and of value to the reader."--Forensic Science Review, Misleading DNA Evidence

Do you understand that your entire view of reality is distorted with everything that is connected to this case? I mean, you are literally turning the top scientific experts in the world into dunces with your lunatic beliefs.

When I took my psychology degree the "pop psychology" books on the market, whilst bestsellers, were viewed as anathema by our lecturers, little more than garbage.

Yeah, the top forensic geneticist in the world does not write "pop forensic genetics" book, as if that were even a thing. Holy cow.

Dr Gill is a self-professed paid advocate for the defense, so of course he's going to try to swing it by using his influence. It's called the "halo effect".

This is a complete and utter dishonest lie. He was not paid by the defense. He included that chapter in his book because it is a shining example of the most atrocious analysis of DNA evidence imaginable. Your tactic is to smear anyone who disagrees with your opinion. Since the top forensic geneticists in the world are now disagreeing with your opinion, you are now actually trying to discredit all of the top experts in a field that you have no clue about. Do you ever take a step back and think "what the heck am I writing here."?

The forensic police are well-experienced and qualified. They have no motive to frame anyone. In addition, it's not possible for anyone to fake a DNA profile.

They are not as well-experienced and qualified as Dr. Gill. And it's not even close. The entire purpose of the forensic police is to gather evidence and convict a suspect. Thus, the entire purpose was to "get" Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, since they were the prime suspects at the time. I don't like the word "frame", but you are completely ridiculous if you don't think they had a motive to collect evidence (reliable or not) against Amanda and Raffaele. The fact that the evidence was completely wrong and unreliable is simply evidence of their bias and incompetence. This happens all the time in wrongful convictions.

The ginormous globule of Raff DNA could no way have been transferred from the door handle via a latex glove to the bra clasp. You have to be incredibly gullible to believe that.

This is completely wrong. It was not a "ginormous globule" of DNA. I believe others have calculated it as having the mass of 1/100,000'th of a grain of salt. You are lying and exaggerating (like you did with the "boulder" Rudy threw through the window to break into the house and ultimately murder Meredith by himself) to try to prove a point and win an argument that is completely unwinnable.

DNA is very easily transferred. It can be transferred even if you are extremely careful with handling. Anyone who has any experience in molecular biology at all will tell you exactly this. The bra clasp was NOT handled carefully, it was left in the dirt for 46 days after initial evidence collection, moved around, likely kicked with dirty feet, and touched with dirty gloves, put down, and picked up again with dirty gloves. It was contaminated. It HAD to be. THERE WERE 5 TOTAL DNA PROFILES ON IT. That is the definition of contamination, Vixen. It was honestly impossible to handle that piece of evidence more improperly. Anyone with any experience or expertise at all in molecular biology would say the exact same thing. You have absolutely no experience in genetics or molecular biology, which is likely (combined with your delusions and biases) why you are saying the exact opposite of what is correct. I encourage you to read any undergraduate text on molecular biology lab techniques, because you quite honestly cannot be more wrong about this.

 

[Vixen]

But presumably you are using R's book as a primary source in which case you are misrepresenting what he actually says.

Sorry, he confirms she nodded along to classical music and even by his standards immediately came across as seriously eccentric.

 

[Vixen]

I've never read that. Citation.

Please refer to her diary list of HIV suspects, where she writes after Raff's name he took a lot of cocaine and acid.

 

[NotEvenWrong]

The DNA was discovered lodged in a microscopic striation on the blade when forensic police magnified it under special lighting. It was organic matter which turned out to have a strong DNA profile of Mez.

Stefanoni could not identify the striation when cross-examined. Because it WAS NOT THERE. She was lying. If it was organic matter she would have been able to identify it. It would not have been an LCN sample as there would have been tons of DNA. It would have not tested NEGATIVE for DNA quantification. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN REMOVED WHEN THE BLOOD WAS THOROUGHLY CLEANED. It is impossible to get around these facts. There is literally no possible way there was a piece of DNA or organic matter on that blade that belonged to Meredith. It was not a "strong DNA profile". It was an LCN profile that could only be tested ONCE, violating all known international protocol on DNA analysis. It was the opposite of a strong profile. It was contamination. It had to be contamination because of all these facts. This is incontrovertible proof it was contamination.

The defense had an expert scientific observer there to witness the testing, even if the blackguard deliberately absented himself.

Uh, did you say there was a defense scientific expert there and then he wasn't there in the same sentence? Can you not even keep your logic straight within the bounds of a single phrase?

There is no innocent explanation for Mez' organic matter being on the blade.

IT WAS NOT ON THE BLADE. The sample was absolutely contaminated at some point within the lab. All of the evidence noted above shows this. This is proof it was contamination. Not possibly contamination. Not maybe contamination. It absolutely was contamination. When you don't follow proper lab protocol and there was no blood on the knife, there was starch on the knife (proving it hadn't actually been cleaned of anything), the DNA sample was LCN, the knife blade tested negative for DNA, the knife blade didn't match the wounds, the LCN sample was only tested once (violating international forensic protocol), Meredith's samples were all over the lab and had already been amplified, and the knife was a random kitchen knife plucked out of a drawer chosen simply so the police would "have something" to test and use against Amanda, we know with irrefutable certainty that Meredith's profile appeared due to contamination. You cannot get more certain than this in a molecular biology experiment, Vixen. Again, I encourage you to pick up any undergraduate text on molecular biology techniques, as any basic text will clearly explain to you why you are wrong. All of the experts in forensic science who have reviewed this case have the exact opposite of opinion as you, someone with no experience in molecular techniques. Does this not tell you something?

 

[Vixen]

Yes, and Dr. Gill (one of the top forensic geneticist's in the field and one of the founding fathers of the entire discipline) wrote an academic text. Here is what the Forensic Science Review says about the book:

"...a book that should be read by all who work in DNA laboratories...there are 12 recommendations that make up preventative actions in the book’s corrective action plan...both interesting and of value to the reader."--Forensic Science Review, Misleading DNA Evidence

Do you understand that your entire view of reality is distorted with everything that is connected to this case? I mean, you are literally turning the top scientific experts in the world into dunces with your lunatic beliefs.



Yeah, the top forensic geneticist in the world does not write "pop forensic genetics" book, as if that were even a thing. Holy cow.



This is a complete and utter dishonest lie. He was not paid by the defense. He included that chapter in his book because it is a shining example of the most atrocious analysis of DNA evidence imaginable. Your tactic is to smear anyone who disagrees with your opinion. Since the top forensic geneticists in the world are now disagreeing with you opinion, you are now actually trying to discredit all of the top experts in a field that you have no clue about. Do you ever take a step back and think "what the heck am I writing here."?



They are not as well-experienced and qualified as Dr. Gill. And it's not even close. The entire purpose of the forensic police is to gather evidence and convict a suspect. Thus, the entire purpose was to "get" Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, since they were the prime suspects at the time. I don't like the word "frame", but you are completely ridiculous if you don't think they had a motive to collect evidence (reliable or not) against Amanda and Raffaele. The fact that the evidence was completely wrong and unreliable is simply evidence of their bias and incompetence. This happens all the time in wrongful convictions.



This is completely wrong. It was not a "ginormous globule" of DNA. I believe others have calculated it as having the mass of 1/100,000'th of a grain of salt. You are lying and exaggerating (like you did with the "boulder" Rudy threw through the window to break into the house and ultimately murder Meredith by himself) to try to prove a point and win an argument that is completely unwinnable.

DNA is very easily transferred. It can be transferred even if you are extremely careful with handling. Anyone who has any experience in molecular biology at all will tell you exactly this. The bra clasp was NOT handled carefully, it was left in the dirt for 46 days after initial evidence collection, moved around, likely kicked with dirty feet, and touched with dirty gloves, put down, and picked up again with dirty gloves. It was contaminated. It HAD to be. THERE WERE 5 TOTAL DNA PROFILES ON IT. That is the definition of contamination, Vixen. It was honestly impossible to handle that piece of evidence more improperly. Anyone with any experience or expertise at all in molecular biology would say the exact same thing. You have absolutely no experience in genetics or molecular biology, which is likely (combined with your delusions and biases) why you are saying the exact opposite of what is correct. I encourage you to read any undergraduate text on molecular biology lab techniques, because you quite honestly cannot be more wrong about this.

Two material errors, the 1/100,000th of a grain of salt, is Grinder's anecdotal estimate of the Mez DNA, which was LCN.

Raff's was a resounding, unequivocal >1,300RFU's, not LCN.

The other material error is, the other DNA material found, were not DNA profiles, they were random fragments.

If Raff's DNA is contaminated, then why are you not protesting that therefore ipso facto so is Rudy's, as his was collected the same time, in the same manner.

In addition, although not collected for forty-two days, the whole building had been sealed off, and only forensic police in full protective clothing entered the murder room.

 

[toto]

Sorry, he confirms she nodded along to classical music and even by his standards immediately came across as seriously eccentric.

The "tapping" of feet and "rock concert" were your invention. "Undeniably" is not a synonym for "seriously". I think you might do better if you assume people can read English here.


Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

 

[acbytesla]

Amanda was in Perugia under her own steam, doing a language course. Mez was at the academic University on a prestigious ERASMUS exchange from Leeds uni, as part of her degree module.

Amanda's fellows being "very good students" translates into a logical fallacy to say, therefore she must be.

In Europe, we take it for granted our boyfriends will be as equally classy and elegant as ourselves. I am surprised you suggest Amanda would be impressed by a car, as when I visited my friend in the USA even her sixteen year old son had a beautiful car, they had a lovely home and it was only in the eighth richest area in the US, with Dolly Parton as one of the neighbours. Americans seemed very affluent compared to many Brits. So Amanda came from such a rough neighbourhood, she'd throw herself at someone like Raff "because he's got a new car"?

Mez had a normal student-style relationship. She wasn't bedding every guy in town.

Everything you write is about deception. It's also clueless. The UW declines about half of the students that apply. Amanda was on the Dean's listhe at that time. The language courses that Amanda was taking in fact were part of the UW's accredited Study Abroad program. It is also my understanding that Meredith in fact was NOT an Erasmus fellow..but that is irrelevant .

Still, this about you "wildly speculating" that Amanda was crazy jealous of Meredith. The fact is that they were friends and there was little for either of them to be jealous of the other. But hey, you didn't become a Mensa member for your logic ability...right?

 

[Vixen]

Stefanoni could not identify the striation when cross-examined. Because it WAS NOT THERE. She was lying. If it was organic matter she would have been able to identify it. It would not have been an LCN sample as there would have been tons of DNA. It would have not tested NEGATIVE for DNA quantification. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN REMOVED WHEN THE BLOOD WAS THOROUGHLY CLEANED. It is impossible to get around these facts. There is literally no possible way there was a piece of DNA or organic matter on that blade that belonged to Meredith. It was not a "strong DNA profile". It was an LCN profile that could only be tested ONCE, violating all known international protocol on DNA analysis. It was the opposite of a strong profile. It was contamination. It had to be contamination because of all these facts. This is incontrovertible proof it was contamination.



Uh, did you say there was a defense scientific expert there and then he wasn't there in the same sentence? Can you not even keep your logic straight within the bounds of a single phrase?



IT WAS NOT ON THE BLADE. The sample was absolutely contaminated at some point within the lab. All of the evidence noted above shows this. This is proof it was contamination. Not possibly contamination. Not maybe contamination. It absolutely was contamination. When you don't follow proper lab protocol and there was no blood on the knife, there was starch on the knife (proving it hadn't actually been cleaned of anything), the DNA sample was LCN, the knife blade tested negative for DNA, the knife blade didn't match the wounds, the LCN sample was only tested once (violating international forensic protocol), Meredith's samples were all over the lab and had already been amplified, and the knife was a random kitchen knife plucked out of a drawer chosen simply so the police would "have something" to test and use against Amanda, we know with irrefutable certainty that Meredith's profile appeared due to contamination. You cannot get more certain than this in a molecular biology experiment, Vixen. Again, I encourage you to pick up any undergraduate text on molecular biology techniques, as any basic text will clearly explain to you why you are wrong. All of the experts in forensic science who have reviewed this case have the exact opposite of opinion as you, someone with no experience in molecular techniques. Does this not tell you something?

It was a fact found by the courts, as well as the police and the defense it was a bonafide strong profile of Mez, to the high level of 15 alleles. QED ::

It was a fact found, Stefanoni's laboratory was NOT contaminated with Mez' DNA.

It is a fact and established legal protocol, that both parties have a witness present when the tests are carried out.

It is very common for the defense in a strong murder case to deliberately not turn up, so they can later make up all sorts of claims of "contamination" and "wrongdoing". Massei and Nencini rightly rejected these transparent defense ruses.

 

[acbytesla]

Please refer to her diary list of HIV suspects, where she writes after Raff's name he took a lot of cocaine and acid.

Has anyone else read this? As this is the first I've read about it. I Googled Raffaele and cocaine and acid and except typical guilter articles where people suggest this and a section in Honor Bound where he quotes Mignini saying that they were taking acid cocaine and Marijuana that night.. I find nothing

 

[Vixen]

Everything you write is about deception. It's also clueless. The UW declines about half of the students that apply. Amanda was on the Dean's listhe at that time. The language courses that Amanda was taking in fact were part of the UW's accredited Study Abroad program. It is also my understanding that Meredith in fact was NOT an Erasmus fellow..but that is irrelevant .

Still, this about you "wildly speculating" that Amanda was crazy jealous of Meredith. The fact is that they were friends and there was little for either of them to be jealous of the other. But hey, you didn't become a Mensa member for your logic ability...right?

Mez WAS an ERASMUS student. If Amanda was on the dean's list, how come she never wore cords (chords?). Can you confirm she did graduate in creative writing?

True, Mez was normal. Amanda obviously had anger issues.

 

[Vixen]

Has anyone else read this? As this is the first I've read about it. I Googled Raffaele and cocaine and acid and except typical guilter articles where people suggest this and a section in Honor Bound where he quotes Mignini saying that they were taking acid cocaine and Marijuana that night.. I find nothing

It has already been reproduced here in two formats.

Do keep up.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill, Bill, Bill,

You found the need to bring it up for some reason and I merely asked what the difference is. I don't see that "forte sospetto" can be interpreted as anything but strongly suspected.

It would be nice to get at least one of the translations out even if not perfect.

Well, it all depends who Marasca is saying is doing the "forte sospetto" suggesting. Himself, or some other entity who he is referring to for the record. Machiavelli says it is Marasca himself who still strongly suspects. LondonJohn put another spin onto that based on his own Google-translating. That spin more fits what I gleaned in the admittedly suspect Google translating.

I found the need to bring it up because Machiavelli is now involved in another translation project. I wanted to lay bets that his translation would handle the whole issue differently than the one Anglolawyer is involved in. I take it you decline betting!

There are already imperfect translations out there. IIP has had one for quite a few days now - albeit a rather awkward machine translation.

On another note - the PMF bunch should be congratulated for their previous translations, most notably of the Nencini and Massei Motivation Reports. With the possible exception of the way they handled translating "osmotico", in all appearances they were fair and unbiased translations.

Indeed, the English translation of Massei did not even try to cover-up his handling of the presumed semen-stain, issues of suspect-centrism, or even the overall issue of multiple attackers. The PMF bunch left intact that it was simply a guess on Massei's part that there'd been a clean-up in the short hallway-space between Meredith's room and the bathmat, as well as Amanda carrying that large kitchen knife around for protection.

At least for translation purposes, they did not gloss over those parts of Massei which, in the end, are implicitly used by Marasca to acquit the pair.

And once again, my own view (as sustained by folk like LJ) is more consistent with what the Italian press is focussing upon.

What seems to be emerging here is the really-real world of a (potential) plain-text reading of the Marasca report, vs. a dieterological-not really-real conspiratorial reading of it.

Like you, I cannot wait to read a competently translated version.

 

[NotEvenWrong]

Two material errors, the 1/100,000th of a grain of salt, is Grinder's anecdotal estimate of the Mez DNA, which was LCN.

No material errors. More misunderstanding by you because you don't know anything about the evidence in this case. It was Grinder's estimate of Raf's DNA quantity on the bra clasp. I know this because you cannot estimate the DNA quantity from the blade, since it quantified zero. MEANING IT WASN'T THERE AND YOU CAN'T ESTIMATE THE MASS WHEN IT WASN'T THERE. I will let Grinder correct me if I am wrong and he has other information.

Raff's was a resounding, unequivocal >1,300RFU!s, not LCN.

No one ever said the quantity of DNA on the bra clasp was LCN. It was handled horribly so a metric ton (relatively) of DNA was transferred. See my previous post about all the handling errors. Despite this, it was still ~1/100,000th the mass of a grain of salt. So it would be apropos if you stop referring to it as a "ginormous globule" in order to score points with people that know nothing of molecular biology and DNA.

The other material error is, the other DNA material found, were not DNA profiles, they were random fragments.

As you are fond of saying, you cannot create random DNA out of thin air. These profiles came from people, because DNA doesn't randomly get synthesized out of thin air. The "random fragments" were "random" because it was contaminated to hell and there was no way to tell where these other DNA fragments came from. This is what happens when you have terrible forensic work: items get contaminated, you get random fragments from a bunch of unknown people (five total in this case), and the wrong people get convicted because people with no molecular biology expertise hear "omg his DNA is there I saw this on CSI once. GUILTY!!"

If Raff's DNA is contaminated, then why are you not protesting that therefore ipso facto is Rudy's, as his was collected the same time, in the same manner.

IT WAS NOT COLLECTED AT THE SAME TIME. Raf's DNA was on the bra clasp, which was kicked around and contaminated, and left in the dirt for 46 days in the room where the murder occurred inside a house that Raf visited. Rudy's samples were collected immediately upon discovery of the body. The difference in quality and reliability between these samples cannot be any greater. Plus there was other evidence of Rudy being there, and the amount of DNA left was overwhelming. Quite different than zero DNA evidence of Amanda in the room and one tiny piece of Raf on a contaminated bra clasp plucked up off the dirty floor with dirty gloves after being kicked with dirty feet 46 days later.

In addition, although not collected for forty-two days, the whole building had been sealed off, and only forensic police in full protective clothing entered the murder room.

LOL! They took a video and pictures of them collecting the bra clasp and you can SEE the dirt on their unchanged gloves. They did not put on clean foot covers. And lol at "sealed off", as if putting a piece of tape on a door would prevent anyone from entering that house over the course of a month and a half when no one is around. The bra clasp wasn't even in the same spot it was originally seen Vixen: we have PROOF it was moved and therefore touched, kicked, thrown in a pile, whatever and had junk all over the clasp that wouldn't have been there immediately following the murder. It had profiles of FIVE TOTAL PEOPLE on it. This is the definition of contamination, Vixen. It cannot possibly be more clear that the clasp was contaminated.

 

[Mr Fied]

Amanda was in Perugia under her own steam, doing a language course. Mez was at the academic University on a prestigious ERASMUS exchange from Leeds uni, as part of her degree module.

Amanda's fellows being "very good students" translates into a logical fallacy to say, therefore she must be.

In Europe, we take it for granted our boyfriends will be as equally classy and elegant as ourselves. I am surprised you suggest Amanda would be impressed by a car, as when I visited my friend in the USA even her sixteen year old son had a beautiful car, they had a lovely home and it was only in the eighth richest area in the US, with Dolly Parton as one of the neighbours. Americans seemed very affluent compared to many Brits. So Amanda came from such a rough neighbourhood, she'd throw herself at someone like Raff "because he's got a new car"?

Mez had a normal student-style relationship. She wasn't bedding every guy in town.

Okay, once again, how many sexual partners from Italy were on Amanda's list of partners that she made when told she had HIV?

Which girl was dating a doctors son and which was dating a drug producer who ignored her in public?

Which girl's partner was more likely to have links to Guede? (let me give you a clue, Guede has visited one of their partner's home.)

Which girl do you think might have been jealous of the other's relationship?

 

[NotEvenWrong]

It was a fact found by the courts, as well as the police and the defense it was a bonafide strong profile of Mez, to the high level of 15 alleles. QED ::

No, this contradicts every expert that has commented on the case. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. This isn't how Low Copy Number DNA works. It was found to be Meredith's profile by the courts because they are incompetent. It obviously was not found that way by the defense. Have you read ANYTHING about this case that didn't come from a pro-guilt hysteria website?

It was a fact found, Stefanoni's laboratory was NOT contaminated with Mez' DNA.

This is complete nonsense. They had already processed samples from her. Her DNA had been all over that lab, amplified, analyzed, everything. You cannot "fact find" a lab to be not contaminated when no testing for contamination was even done. It's astounding how little you know, and thus have to resort to fabricating nonsense.

It is a fact and established legal protocol, that both parties have a witness present when the tests are carried out.

Well, considering that the samples should be analyzed BEFORE a suspect is decided upon (doing otherwise would be nonsense, as it would bias the analysis and be a suspect-centered method, wouldn't it Vixen?), I find it hard to believe that the "defense" has to have a witness present by law before a defense is even hired. Where do you come up with this stuff?

It is very common for the defense in a strong murder case to deliberately not turn up, so they can later make up all sorts of claims of "contamination" and "wrongdoing". Massei and Nencini rightly rejected these transparent defense ruses.

More nonsense. Guess what Vixen, when the indepedent experts DID "turn up", they found the DNA evidence collection and analysis to violate pretty much every known protocol in the international forensic science community. Since then, countless experts, including Dr. Peter Gill, one of the foremost experts in the field and a founding father of modern forensic science, have supporting the independent experts' conclusions. The only people disagreeing with them are various lunatics and people with zero experience and knowledge of molecular biology. I will ask again, does that tell you anything, Vixen?

 

[acbytesla]

It has already been reproduced here in two formats.

Do keep up.

Why don't you provide them then. I did find where he admitted trying acid and cocaine, but not Amanda saying this in her diary. Hash yes.

 

[NotEvenWrong]

Vixen,
Not that we all don't already realize you are making everything up, but answer this for me:

If it is required BY LAW (as you put it) for the defense to have a witness present when forensic evidence is analyzed, then when did the defense get in trouble BY LAW for not having an expert present at the analysis performed by Stefanoni? And did Rudy have an expert witness present when his samples were analyzed? Who was the expert witness present for Rudy? Did both prosecution and defense have witnesses present when 36i was analyzed by forensic experts in Rome (if so, cite. Because I have never in my life read that before, and you and your ilk have a penchant for making stuff up constantly.)?

And again, generally forensic evidence is analyzed and THEN a suspect is decided upon (as would actually make sense, because who accuses people with no evidence, right?), so how would the defense have an expert witness present when the defense doesn't exist yet? And you're saying this is required BY LAW? Is Italian law really this illogical? Or are you just lying to try to score points?

Are you sure you aren't just making stuff up again?