General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

[Hans]

And Slavic (especially Polish) leaders, politicians and intellectuals; Roma; the mentally ill; Esperanto speakers; communists and socialists; Freemasons and Jehovah's Witnesses.
Not forgetting the Hunger Plan and more than ten million Slavic civilian deaths.


It's worth remembering that the death toll for the Holocaust in toto is around eleven-and-a-half million human lives

Not to forget that 70-85 million people died as a result of WW2 of between 3-3.7% of the world's population. It was a horrendous event.

 

[Mudcat]

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were talking about reality, not ancient myths. I'm sure my ancestors had silly beliefs, and I'm sure they lied, but I don't think that has anything to do about me, or how dishonest my ethnic group is.

That depends, have Jews since come clean that the whole thing was made up? If not, they are still lying about it if only by omission.

 

[Hans]

That depends, have Jews since come clean that the whole thing was made up? If not, they are still lying about it if only by omission.

In matters of religion if you believe it its not a lie! lol All religions would have this same problem, they all contain false information that at one time and still today are believed by billions of people. You don't seem to understand this.

So mudcat are all modern people who believe in religion branded as liars because of what is taught as truth in their religions?

 

[Belz...]

That depends, have Jews since come clean that the whole thing was made up? If not, they are still lying about it if only by omission.

What does that have to do with the Holocaust, is what I want to know.

 

[Nick Terry]

That depends, have Jews since come clean that the whole thing was made up? If not, they are still lying about it if only by omission.

Problem is, all Christian denominations also 'believe' the Exodus story because it's in the Old Testatement. It's been rather inspirational for African Americans. Moses is mentioned 502 times in the Koran, do the 1 billion Muslims have to come clean, too?

 

[CaptainHowdy]

That depends, have Jews since come clean that the whole thing was made up? If not, they are still lying about it if only by omission.

What governing body of Jews, speaking for all Jews everywhere, has the authority to issue an admission that the Exodus story is completely made up? What would this admission look like? Would Jews need to admit that they lied; that they practice a religion that is based on lies and, by extension, so do all Christians and Muslims?

It seems that would cause alot of upheaval in the world.

 

[Hans]

..Plus there is no one to apologize to, there is no Egyptian Empire left to say sorry to (not that they are blameless in the myths we hear) and the nearest thing to that ancient nation are the Coptics, who are Christians - should they beg pardon from themselves? lol

About 55% of the religious people in the world are JCM and if you look hard enough into the other religions they have truth issues also.....

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2012/12/01_groups.png

Seems like a baseless argument. I happen to know one of my ancestors was a right royal bastard, liar, murderer, horse thief, etc.,do his crimes come down to me? I think not.

We seem to be drifting off topic.

 

[dropzone]

John DeNugent / His webpage
"As for Caroline Sturdy Colls, I am chagrined how many people have missed the obvious Jewish physical characteristics of this incredibly partial “scientist.” I will endeavor below to lay out the indicators suggesting strongly, though not proving, that she is Jewish, and should so state rather than pretend to be impartial. She has every neanderthalic and thus Eastern Mediteranean feature: –dark hair (reddened by coloring), –curved nose, –protruding mouth, –thrust-forward head. Here is a semi-frontal shot of her (and note the IMO stereotypically ARROGANT Jewish look."

Looks Welsh, to me. In that embarrassingly hot, sullen, "she'll cut your heart out" way.

ETA: Um, [/hijack]

 

[BazBear]

To add to your parenthesis Or as many forget : homosexual and handicapped.

Good point. I didn't mean to leave anyone out, but no other groups immediately came to mind as I typed that, hence my "etc".

 

[BazBear]

That depends, have Jews since come clean that the whole thing was made up? If not, they are still lying about it if only by omission.

Mudcat, I'm simply not getting what you're on about with this stuff. The Jews are not one monolithic religion and culture today, and I doubt they have been in at least 2500 years. Demanding that all Jews renounce scriptural myths, and if they don't, lumping them all together as liars seems rather silly to me. It certainly has nothing to do with the veracity of the well researched estimates of how many were killed by the Nazis.

 

[dropzone]

And why, specifically, are the Jews "liars" for having some mythological beliefs, Mudcat? Are you trying to tell us something about yourself that the rest of us sussed out a long time ago?

 

[Roger Stonechurch]

And Slavic (especially Polish) leaders, politicians and intellectuals; Roma; the mentally ill; Esperanto speakers; communists and socialists; Freemasons and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Haha. the victimhood and persecution complex of some of these groups is staggering. Just because Zamenhof was an esperanto speaker, doesn't mean all esperanto speakers were singled out for a one way ticket to concentration camps, the Fallbeil or whatever. Zamenhof was also a jew. Maybe that had something to do with it?

I see this thread got off moderated status. The only reason seems all dissenters have gone. Freedom of speech has prevailed.

 

[Roger Stonechurch]

And Slavic (especially Polish) leaders, politicians and intellectuals; Roma; the mentally ill; Esperanto speakers; communists and socialists; Freemasons and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Apart from esperanto speakers, I would like to add a forgotten group of people, the Nazis also targeted mime players. Allow me to cite from wikipedia on Marcel Marceau:

He was born Marcel Mangel in Strasbourg, France to a Jewish family. His parents were Ann Werzberg and Charles Mangel, a kosher butcher. When Marcel was four years old, the family moved to Lille, but they later returned to Strasbourg.[1] When France entered World War II, Marcel, 16, fled with his family to Limoges. In 1944 Marcel's father was captured and deported to the notorious Auschwitz concentration camp, where he was killed. Marcel's mother survived.[3]

Marcel and his younger brother, Alain, adopted the last name "Marceau" during the German occupation of France; the name was chosen as a reference to François Séverin Marceau-Desgraviers, a general of the French Revolution.[4][5] The two brothers joined the French Resistance in Limoges, where they saved numerous children from the race laws and concentration camps, and, after the liberation of Paris, joined the French army.[4] Owing to Marcel's excellent command of the English, French and German languages, he worked as a liaison officer with General George Patton's army.[4][6]

According to Marceau, when he was five years of age, his mother took him to a Charlie Chaplin film, which entranced him and led him to want to become a mime. The first time he used mime was after France was invaded, in order to keep Jewish children quiet while he helped them escape to neutral Switzerland.[1][7]

As you can see, mimes suffered serious prosecution. Marcel Mangel's father suffered the consequences in a concentration camp. Mime was an important aspect of the french resistance, allowing innocent children to escape to Switzerland without alerting the national socialists. Never forget the plight of mime players.

 

[catsmate]

Haha. the victimhood and persecution complex of some of these groups is staggering. Just because Zamenhof was an esperanto speaker, doesn't mean all esperanto speakers were singled out for a one way ticket to concentration camps, the Fallbeil or whatever. Zamenhof was also a jew. Maybe that had something to do with it?

It would seem that the history of Esperanto and the details of the Holocausst are (yet more) topics you have little knowledge of.

Hitler (in Mein Kampf, perhaps you've heard of it?) claimed that Esperanto was a Jewish creation, a universal language to unite the Jewish diaspora.

"As long as the Jew has not become the master of the other peoples, he must speak their languages whether he likes it or not, but as soon as they became his slaves, they would all have to learn a universal language (Esperanto, for instance!), so that by this additional means the Jews could more easily dominate them!"

It was prohibited for members of the NSDAP to have membership of, or connections with, any organisation that espoused Esperanto.

Because the creation of an international hybrid language contradicts the basic concepts of National Socialism and ultimately can only serve the interests of supranational powers, the Führer's deputy forbids all party members and members of organisations affiliated to the party to belong to all forms of artificial language associations.

In Gestapo documents Esperanto is described as the "secret language of Communists" (ironic given that Stalin called it "the language of spies")..

As for your idiotic assertion that Lazar Zamenhof was the only person victimised because of his espousing of Esperanto, perhaps you're ignorant of the murder of his children? His son Adam was executed under specific orders from Berlin and daughters Lidia and Zofia perished at Treblinka.
Along with about 3,500 others. Though it's difficult to be exact as many Esperantists were also Jews, intellectuals or others considered to the Nazi doctrine of nationalistic stupidity.

 

[dudalb]

another day, another Holocaust denier outs himself.

 

[Belz...]

What is it with antisemitism, anyway? How does that very specific bigotry not only survives, but thrives throughout the centuries?

 

[smartcooky]

ETA: Or are you talking about Leon Uris' Exodus? A fictional retelling - but based on reality - of the foundation of Israel? Did the Jews write that?

Well, Leon Uris was Jewish wasn't he?

I want to ask the same question as Belz. I get "how" Jews have become a hated group. They are everywhere, they are easily identifiable, and make an easy target to be cast in the role of scapegoat for the world's troubles. The Nazis saw them as "The Great Evil" that prevented ordinary Germans from getting ahead. However, what I don't get is the "why". Why is there such a widespread dislike, hatred even, of Jews. What is it about them that makes people hate them so much? Is it really as simple as deicide; that Christians blame the Jews for the betrayal of Jesus?

 

[trustbutverify]

What is it with antisemitism, anyway? How does that very specific bigotry not only survives, but thrives throughout the centuries?

How much time you got?

 

[Tomtomkent]

Well, Leon Uris was Jewish wasn't he?

I want to ask the same question as Belz. I get "how" Jews have become a hated group. They are everywhere, they are easily identifiable, and make an easy target to be cast in the role of scapegoat for the world's troubles. The Nazis saw them as "The Great Evil" that prevented ordinary Germans from getting ahead. However, what I don't get is the "why". Why is there such a widespread dislike, hatred even, of Jews. What is it about them that makes people hate them so much? Is it really as simple as deicide; that Christians blame the Jews for the betrayal of Jesus?

I don't think you will find a single reason.

In some places it was because the Jews were firmly established in the middle class professions. The elite had to bow to them, the working classes were jealous. When, like little Adolf, you are starving on the streets of Vienna and you see pawnbrokers, lawyers, and doctors who are not starving, and are all Jewish it is easy to convince yourself they are pawnbrokers, lawyers, or doctors because they are Jewish, and because there was corruption.

On the other hand, in 1888, London was "overflowing" with Jews who had outrun persecution in Russia. They were seen exactly the same way that Syrian refugees are being seen today by the worst elements of society. A drain, taking jobs from good folk, speaking their own language, etc. (To the point that when Jack The Ripper started killing and 'everybody knew' he was the leather aproned Jewish worker who had threatened 'loose' women by habit, there was a very real threat of race riots.)

But perhaps the largest factor for the last few hundred years has been the connection to anarchism, marxism, and communism. There was a whole lot of complicated politicing going on before the serfs got emancipated in Russia, and by the time the socialism movement proper was underway, the Jews were being 'blamed' for the upheaval.

 

[dudalb]

What is it with antisemitism, anyway? How does that very specific bigotry not only survives, but thrives throughout the centuries?

"Lord,we know we are your Chosen People, but could'nt you Choose someone else for a change?'

Tevye the Milkman in "Fiddler On the Roof".