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Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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You write nonsense. And you know that. Yet you try hard to rationalize your denial.

........... and you write about stuff no one else is writing about - I **do** note your promise that they will at some future time. Whoever the "they" is.

And you remain obsessed with Amanda Knox. Take a break, dude, and wait for these reinforcements you claim is coming. For all your efforts - Porta a Porta tweets notwithstanding - so far all you're trying to do is convince an English-speaker that he is in denial. Go for it.
 
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The more I read your postings the more I understand how little you know about "Western" based law.
There is no obligation on the defence to do anything but defend the prosecution's accusations. There is an obligation on the prosecution to disclose/discover evidence pertinent to upholding a FAIR trial.
It is baffling and sinister that the pillow stain was A) not tested or B) tested but the results suppressed.
The secretive/subversive (non)actions relating to the stain by the prosecution undoubtably plays into the hands of accusations of an "unfair" or tainted trial.
There is NO reason for the stain to have been ignored by the prosecution. It is disgracefully unfair to the accused, to the deceased, her family and friends, and most importantly to justice as a whole.
It is an indefensible negligence on the part of the prosecution and should be acknowledged as such.
I have no idea what kind of a legal system operating in a democracy allows such dispicable (non)action by the police/prosecution.
It's absurd, I know, but hypothetically speaking, how do we know that the stain wasn't tested because it belongs to Mignini?
...and what kind of a system allows the investigators to choose to omit vital evidence.....don't policeman commit crimes?

The problem is that you confuse "western" with the sets "common law" and "adversarial".
You don't get that justice systems can be civil law based and with inquisitorial mechanisms, and be fair.
Anyway you don't get the principle that trial events and officers are to be judged in accord to the system they are part of. The meaning of something depends on the context, law and system it is part of, like the meaning of a word depends on the language.
 
........... and you write about stuff no one else is writing about - I **do** note your promise that they will at some future time. Whoever the "they" is.

And you remain obsessed with Amanda Knox. Take a break, dude, and wait for these reinforcements you claim is coming. For all your efforts - Porta a Porta tweets notwithstanding - so far all you're trying to do is convince an English-speaker that he is in denial. Go for it.

You are obsessed with denial. I don't need any reinforcement. I don't need anyone. And myself, nor the "reinforcements" are the topic. The topic of the case and of guilt/innocence debate is Amanda Knox on axiomatic principle.
Simply, you don't want a topic like SC report to be talked about. You don't want to talk about it. But you also don't bear to remain silent. You feel immediately a need to deflect and re-frame, you say: maybe if I talk about "press" I will rationalize some different interpretation...
Stop talking about me Bill. I'm not the topic.
 
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The problem is that you confuse "western" with the sets "common law" and "adversarial".
You don't get that justice systems can be civil law based and with inquisitorial mechanisms, and be fair.
Anyway you don't get the principle that trial events and officers are to be judged in accord to the system they are part of. The meaning of something depends on the context, law and system it is part of, like the meaning of a word depends on the language.

You mean like the difference between, "I was shot," vs. "I was shot at"?

In Guilterland that means you are a liar, based on the number of times you have accused AK and/or RS of lying, when the simpler explanation was that (for Amanda at least) she did not know the language.

Then again, knowing how tough it is to get it exactly right, I'll cut you some slack. You're welcome.
 
You are obsessed with denial. I don't need any reinforcement. I don't need anyone. And myself, nor the "reinforcements" are the topic. The topic of the case and of guilt/innocence debate is Amanda Knox on axiomatic principle.
Simply, you don't want a topic like SC report to be talked about. You don't want to talk about it. But you also don't bear to remain silent. You feel immediately a need to deflect and re-frame, you say: maybe if I talk about "press" I will rationalize some different interpretation...
Stop talking about me Bill. I'm not the topic.

You're not?

Dude - you are tweeting vigourously to Porta a Porta about your views. Your views are bunk. There is no one else (in Italy at least) who is doing that?

Don't you even want to know why?
 
The problem is that you confuse "western" with the sets "common law" and "adversarial".
You don't get that justice systems can be civil law based and with inquisitorial mechanisms, and be fair.
Anyway you don't get the principle that trial events and officers are to be judged in accord to the system they are part of. The meaning of something depends on the context, law and system it is part of, like the meaning of a word depends on the language.

We sort of agree on this one. I've seen plenty of miscarriages of justice in the US as well. The West Memphis three, the Central Park five, Debra Milke, Russian Faria.

A lot has to do with the culture. And by that I'm not talking Italy vs the US but the culture of the jurisdiction. Small town in Kansas or Peruvian both could have corrupt prosecutors and cops, but it's a little unfair to judge the entire country just because the are a few bad apples.

It's also not that unusual to see higher courts protecting lower courts in an attempt to protect the system from a negative public perception.
 
So, your English is good enough to question the use of "scintilla", but not good enough to translate the proper Italian word for "shoot at" into the proper English context.

Interesting. You've been managing in English here for five years. Knox was in Italy for seven weeks, or so.....

And you've deemed her a liar, esp. at interrogation because she did not know her way around Italian legalese.

Interesting. Perhaps ridiculousness is something you specialize in. You would do well to sit quietly and accept tutoring on these things. Be a good chap.

No, Bill. I also deemed Raffaele Sollecito a liar. And Sollecito is an Italian speaker.
You know perfectly well, you do know that, that we all understand what Amanda says, and it's not because of language misunderstandings.
 
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No, Bill. I also deemed Raffaele Sollecito a liar. And Sollecito is an Italian speaker.
You know perfectly well, you do know that, that it's not because of language misunderstandings.

Ha! Tell me, then, what does "See you later " connote?

In Italian? For an American.

Sometimes I think it is you who is the FOA as a deep cover false flag operative, to say such dumb things.
 
We sort of agree on this one. I've seen plenty of miscarriages of justice in the US as well. The West Memphis three, the Central Park five, Debra Milke, Russian Faria.

A lot has to do with the culture. And by that I'm not talking Italy vs the US but the culture of the jurisdiction. Small town in Kansas or Peruvian both could have corrupt prosecutors and cops, but it's a little unfair to judge the entire country just because the are a few bad apples.

It's also not that unusual to see higher courts protecting lower courts in an attempt to protect the system from a negative public perception.

Anyone in theory can protect anyone, in theory bad apples are everywhere, and everyone can have a hidden affair. By this is all vague theory. Without context all this is vague. The fact is that you nerd to know the context, know referrnce of what you talk about.
 
Ha! Tell me, then, what does "See you later " connote?

In Italian? For an American.

Sometimes I think it is you who is the FOA as a deep cover false flag operative, to say such dumb things.

"ci vediamo piu' tardi" instead is a misunderstanding, and in fact it was it pointed out as possible misunderstanding from the very beginning, it's an English colloquialism/salutation, was detected and is detectable, and in fact this is not among the things that are evidence of her lying.
 
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Anyone in theory can protect anyone, in theory bad apples are everywhere, and everyone can have a hidden affair. By this is all vague theory. Without context all this is vague. The fact is that you nerd to know the context, know referrnce of what you talk about.


Why don't you put it into context for us? How are Amanda and her supporters representative of the vultures who take advantage of the corrupt, pro-Mafia aspect of Italian society?
 
Copied from a previous poster:

"That's right...the reporter asked Knox yesterday, "who killed Kercher?" The answer to that has always been so clear that one would have to be a dense to not really know that answer. And the Perugia prosecutor and police and several lower court judges knew that answer as well....Rudy Guede killed poor Miss Kercher. You really have to have a wild imagination to fall for all the varying stories that were used to try to implicate RS and AK. Forget trying to weave in the lack of evidence. The failed CSI ...the abusive interrogation without lawyers, the continued denial of attorney's up until the minute of the first hearing. The numerous sub-related cases filed by the prosecutor to either deny a fair and free press or to intimidate witnesses or even scare the families into silence for talking about their daughter's beatings at the hands of police. There are literally more than a hundred examples of official abuse, lies and deceit. Witnesses lying in court, prosecutors trying to sneak fake documents into the court record...(this would be the fake control data sheets)...twice the judge caught them and twice let them slide... If the average joe knew the true facts of the level of corruption in this case they would howl for justice...but not for Miss Kercher or her family...that time passed long ago when the real killer Guede was given only a slap, meanwhile they worked for the devil to convict two completely innocent persons. Only a fool would not know this. Not the average joe, because most people could not spend the time to study the facts, but certainly the families? Please....how can anyone be that oblivious? I feel sorry for them on two counts...they lost a loved one and second they were cheated and lied to by police and prosecutor and a dishonest lawyer or three. Who burns up 4 computers and then denies a defense motion to try and recover and repair this damage... caused by who? Why the police that's who. And THEN...as if it never happened, to try and use the now lack of data to prove that what??? A relationship never happened? The roommates were not friends? The alibi was no good. It is a case so full of wrong that it should go down in history for the sheer volume of mafia like behavior of the officials. All pretending. No one being fully honest...even the first appeal judge allowing a false slander charge to stand in order to save Italy a few millions in false imprisonment charges. I hope the case against this prevails in the ECOHR and that Italy is held up to the light for allowing such open and gross abuse of the law and of persons. The murdered girl and her family will never get justice. The two wrongly accused and their families suffered irreparable damages, grief and strife. Meanwhile, the real protagonists have all been happily promoted or else given a unbelievably light sentence as in Guede's case...Several of the original police have been caught up in other corrupt acts... Not small things, but tampering with evidence and going after the husband of the chiefs soon to be ex-husband. How does this movie not get made? The facts are there for a 3 movie series easily. And right...how did this mess start? What motivated this? A police informant and a whack job of a prosecutor. Not an unknown rouge but a known and examined screwball. So many corrupt acts. They can't be mistakes...Toto, the store clerk, the ear witnesses, the lab tech, the knife, the bra clasp, the fake DNA tests, the outright lies of police in court...Stefanoni stating that samples were large when they were so small as to be untestable...maybe zero in size! How did they get away with this? Not without severe cronyism and corruption. In the end they punted. I hope the Kerchers get some answers about why the Italians failed them ...but honestly how could they be so clueless after 8 years? Never an expressed doubt? That says enough for me. Trying to get clearly innocent persons locked away...using the convoluted words of a scared and confused and abused girl to arrest Lumumba and then pretending that this was not a stupid police move but rather the power and persuasion of a 19 year old non-native speaking co-ed. Shameful! And then Mr. Lumumba's bar is kept closed for months or until assured bankruptcy and still he slanders Miss Knox rather than suing the police for the same abuse he received from them... as Miss Knox did...beating and threats and actual abuse...why keep him out of business other than to shut him up? I could list a dozen pages of odd and irregular facts that officials used over the years but they all started with one crazy man...a chubby prosecutor from Perugia. He speaks to mediums who channel dead priests. He suspects Masons. He is "pure". Who could believe this is all true and yet it is. Impossibly weaved to be so confusing as to be unexplainable. A level of crazy that is incredulous in the amount of blatant gall required to even attempt such a farce and yet...it happened and a fair number went along for the ride on the crazy bus....sigh."
 
Done, done & done.

You write nonsense. And you know that. Yet you try hard to rationalize your denial.
Bruno/Marasca obviously did not "throw tidbits" in direction "of other courts". They violated art. 628 going against the points of law established by Chieffi's court, which they cannot overturn anyway. Those fact findings ate from courts of merits they have annulled and they had no duty to highlight that they agreed if they didn't intend to confirm. If they confirmed fact findings, they confirmed fact findings. Period. They eve emphasized the reasons they say they find convincing.
Legally those facts are valid as for judicial truth, including civil litigation.
Hellmann did not just acquit, he convicted of calunnia, Bruno/Marasca pointed out the calunnia conviction will remain solid and emphasized the elements even though they were not asked to express themselves on calunnia.
Those are not tidbits. They are judicial facts explained over pages.

The mainstream press, I am told, actually talked very little. Articles were very small and didn't have debates following. And the press doesn't "get" meanings the way you think. The press avoids meanings (besides the fact that they don't actually read court documents). The Italian press avoids issues for reasons completely different from your fantasy, actually for reasons nearly the opposite of that. Even journalists that I know are reluctant to speak about cassazione, and they share exactly my opinions about Knox. Mainstream media stay away from the rid of attacking Cassazione because of political and economical reasons (not talking about lawsuits), just like Catholics do not criticize the Pope in loud voice, there is no press freedom of mainstream media, it's not because they "get" things of your imagination.
This doesn't mean that talk doesn't exist or that SC report is an unimportant detail. Actually things will emerge, I'm rather certain mainstream media will resist, that won't take initiative, but will reluctantly talk about those facts too.

The SC report is a fact. As for what I observe, you decide to react to such fact with rationalization and downplaying and denial of its true content about Amanda Knox.

What points of law determined by Chieffi did the Marasca report go against?

I'm reading it now, and they seemed to disapprove of Stafanoni's lab work. In particular, her insistence on non-recognized methods of analysis - regarding non-repeatable tests of low copy number DNA samples, her attribution of partial profiles which lack sufficient specificity to be counted as evidence (a very interesting point), and her dogmatic insistence that the knife was the murder weapon - even though it tested negative for blood.

And of course, they didn't seem to approve at all of her wearing dirty gloves to pass around the bra clasp, and found it inexplicable that she didn't retrieve the bra clasp on the first trip but instead waited 46 days after many people had trampled through the crime scene.

Chieffi's contention that 'contamination must be proven' seems to have been refuted, in favor of international scientific protocols as pointed out by C & V - for whom they had nothing but praise.

Of particular interest to our conversation, in light of previous posts, is that this court found it impossible to believe that Amanda and Raf could have participated in the murder without leaving any trace of themselves in the room where the murder occurred, and stated the obvious impossibility of a 'selective clean-up' since its just impossible.

They also didn't approve of the "experts" who fried the computers with an electric shock, and destroyed potentially useful information.

I don't see how you can interpret this judgement as a victory.

Oh, and its fairly clear that this court did not conclude Amanda and Raf were in the house, since they clearly stated that it could not be determined with tranquility that Amanda & Raf's mutual alibi were not entirely true.

That's the part that sticks in my throat. They couldn't determine that Amanda and Raf never left Raf's apartment, that they were just home the whole night, minding their own business. Happy as can be, until they crossed paths with 'Perugia's finest', Giobbi of the swiveling hips and psychological investigations, and the recalcitrant unrepentant criminal & media whore Giuliani Mignini.

Anyway, I am curious how they differed from Chieffi, in your view.

ETA: the issue of motive was also fascinating. They highlighted the complete separation of Amanda & Raf from Rudy Guede, how Raf had never even known him, how there was zero communication between them, AND, how the issue of a completely irrational and missing motive in this case was fatal to a finding of guilt - because in a circumstantial case such as this, only motive can tie together the circumstantial evidence. Without motive, in a case based on circumstantial evidence, there can be no finding of guilt beyond reasonable doubt, because there's nothing tying the the purported evidence together into a coherent whole. I'm actually gaining a little bit more of an appreciation for Italian jurisprudence. But the calunnia conviction is just dumb as can be, cruel really, and ECHR will just have to explain that to you all.
 
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No, Bill. I also deemed Raffaele Sollecito a liar. And Sollecito is an Italian speaker.
You know perfectly well, you do know that, that we all understand what Amanda says, and it's not because of language misunderstandings.

Yeah, sure we do.

When will you get it? Most people don't view this farce like you do. Can't you tell yet Machiavelli? Your view is not only a minority opinion, it is an exceptionally small minority. There are 2 of you that post a pro guilt position to a minimum of 30 + people who post pro innocence comments on this site. There was a time when pro guilt articles dominated the media, now they are almost non-existent.

Now, I know, none of that matters to you, but surely you know that this a fact.

As for the issue of language issues being one of the primary reasons for this farce, I strongly believe that to be true. The other is the that Mignini is certifiably NUTS!
 
1. They were friends. Enemies don't sign off texts with kisses.
2. She WASN'T there.

3. And yes you do slut shame.

You have been told they were not friends. John Kercher reveals in his book, Meredith that a friend travelling back to England said Mez complained for the whole duration of the flight about Amanda's conduct. If only she had moved out FAST!

Your covering your ears and singing, la, la, doesn't contradict this fact.

<SNIP>
Edited by jsfisher: 
Edited for compliance with Rule 12 of the Membership Agreement.
 
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"ci vediamo piu' tardi" instead is a misunderstanding, and in fact it was it pointed out as possible misunderstanding from the very beginning, it's an English colloquialism/salutation, was detected and is detectable, and in fact this is not among the things that are evidence of her lying.

You are hilarious.

The misunderstanding here directly led to Amanda being declared a suspect. This could only have happened with Anna Donnino **lying** about what see you later means.

And this was the first shot in saying Amanda lied about Lumumba's involvement. For pete's sake do you ever think things through?
 
You mean like the difference between, "I was shot," vs. "I was shot at"?

In Guilterland that means you are a liar, based on the number of times you have accused AK and/or RS of lying, when the simpler explanation was that (for Amanda at least) she did not know the language.

Then again, knowing how tough it is to get it exactly right, I'll cut you some slack. You're welcome.

Give it up, "Bill". Stop fibbing. As Luther said to the wicked one, "move your hand". Stop hiding the truth.
 
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You're not?

Dude - you are tweeting vigourously to Porta a Porta about your views. Your views are bunk. There is no one else (in Italy at least) who is doing that?

Don't you even want to know why?

No Dude. I only tweeted one tweet to Porta a Porta. And not today.
The address @ Porta a Porta remained embedded within a short thread for a few tweets that I exchanged with am Italian woman who answered the first one. I left it there for a few tweets for courtesy.

But here I'm not on twitter. I don't need reinforcements. You flee immediately.

PS: Don't forget you are not talking about my views. You are talking about what the Cassazione says. It's written there. It's not my opinion.
 
No Dude. I only tweeted one tweet to Porta a Porta. And not today.
The address @ Porta a Porta remained embedded within a short thread for a few tweets that I exchanged with am Italian woman who answered the first one. I left it there for a few tweets for courtesy.

But here I'm not on twitter. I don't need reinforcements. You flee immediately.

PS: Don't forget you are not talking about my views. You are talking about what the Cassazione says. It's written there. It's not my opinion.

No one shares your opinion. Otherwise you are entitled to it. Why would I want to dissuade you from a view you, apparently sincerely, hold?

The point is, no one else does. The summary of the Marasca report in the Italian press makes no mention of what you believe it all means.

Agreed, this is not about you. It is not about your views. It is about the way this will play in Italy in the post-acquittal period.

So far it doesn't look good for the views you hold. So far it is as the press is saying, the prosecution was flawed, fueled by a rush to judgement and the tabloid excesses.

That's what it looks like if you insist this is not about you.
 
You are hilarious.

The misunderstanding here directly led to Amanda being declared a suspect. This could only have happened with Anna Donnino **lying** about what see you later means.

And this was the first shot in saying Amanda lied about Lumumba's involvement. For pete's sake do you ever think things through?

Amanda used the literal Italian, "I WILL see you later", not the colloquial "see ya!" as we know in English. Why would she have used the more complicated word structure than, "Ciao!"? Of course the cops wanted an explanation.

Cops are not your "mates".
 
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