JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

[Robert Harris]

On the one hand we could see human testimony as understandably flawed, and confused. And we can see people acting in the confusion of the moment, on film, while being shot at thrice, with two bullets wounding one man and killing another.

Yes, shots were fired at least, "thrice". Hank's "two shot" theory is easily refuted.

Or we can see the same confusion as absolute proof that people were startled, by snipers with suppressed weapons, failing to cause any known wound, without leaving a single recovered bullet, or indeed bullet hole, any evidence of their location or existence.

No one was startled by the sound of suppressed gunshots, which is why I never claimed they were.

And there is a much better way to evaluate witness testimonies, than to make sweeping generalizations about their accuracy or inaccuracy. We can test some of the most important statements, with the Zapruder film.

That's why the limo passengers are such valuable witnesses. Mrs. Connally "said" that she heard one shot, then looked back at JFK, then heard a "second shot" which provoked her to turn back to her husband and pull him back to her.

Was she correct? The Zapruder film will tell us, beyond all reasonable doubt.

http://jfkhistory.com/nellie2.gif

In the film, we can see, not only that she looked back at Kennedy, exactly as she claimed, but we can see WHEN she did that, which in this case, is even more important. She looked back at about frame 258.

Did she then, reacted to a second shot, by turning back to her husand, as she testified? Look at the Zapruder segment again. She did exactly as she stated, snapping away from JFK and to her husband, in perfect unison with Jackie and Kellerman ducking and Greer spinning around, as in his panic, he accidentally lifted his foot from the gas.

She also reacted in EXACTLY the same instant that Zapruder reacted.

They would have needed to use a lower calibre of bullet than any found, or any that can be shown to have caused a wound.

That is untrue. Even "axman" has stated,

The only silenced rifles considered reliable in 1963 were 9mm or .45 caliber.

He has failed to document that assertion, but subsonic ammunition for both of those calibers was and is, commonly available. So at the very least, he has confirmed that two of the most popular calibers of rifles/ammunition could have been used.

And if my understanding of suppressed weapons is correct, and they were using those favoured I the war, they would have to be at close range to avoid hitting random members of the crowd due to decreased accuracy.(though I expect Hank willl correct me on this)

No, you are absolutely correct. In fact, the last verifiable, suppressed shot, was fired at 223, when the limo was almost exactly, 100 feet from the Daltex building. That shot, BTW, was quite inaccurate, striking Kennedy in the back, roughly 8-9 inches below the center of the head, which had to have been, the preferred target.

The shots at the end, were obviously, not suppressed and were infinitely louder.

And all based on the assumption people are startled, in a way that can ONLY be explained by a very loud (silenced) noise!

I find it hard to believe that you were unaware of what I said. The early shots were the ones that were suppressed. Only one of them was even noticed by most witnesses and neither was loud enough to provoke visible startle reactions.

The ones at 285 and 313 were many times louder and provoked dramatic and very obvious, startle reactions.

Notice that the suppressed shots stopped when the limo went out of range. Only then, were the high powered rifles fired.

 

[HSienzant]

I have refuted that argument over and over again. Your claim is that there was no shot circa 160, right? You are not disputing the shot at 223, right? Let's go very my refutations AGAIN.

John Connally proved you wrong in spades. He "heard" the first of those two early shots but only "felt" the one at 223,

It is not conceivable to me that I could have been hit by the first bullet, and then I felt the blow from something which was obviously a bullet, which I assumed was a bullet, and I never heard the second shot, didn't hear it.

Mrs. Kennedy stated that she was looking to her left when she heard that first shot/noise,

Mrs. KENNEDY. You know, there is always noise in a motorcade and there are always motorcycles, besides us, a lot of them backfiring. So I was looking to the left. I guess there was a noise, but it didn't seem like any different noise really because there is so much noise

She was looking to her left at 160, wasn't she? But by 223, she had turned completely to her right, looking at JFK. She had to have heard a pre-223 shot then.

Besides her own statement that she turned to her right, following that "noise", she was corroborated by Phil Willis, who had her in his camera lens then.

When I took slide No. 4, the President was smiling and waving and looking straight ahead, and Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of the street. When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just snap in that direction

He reaffirmed that in this statement,

In slide No. 4 he was looking pretty much toward--straight ahead, and she was looking more to the left, which would be my side of the street. Then when the first shot was fired, she turned to the right toward him

You tell me Hank. When did Mrs. Kennedy turn to JFK? I see that beginning at about 169. What do you get?

In addition to John Connally's testimony and the reactions by Mrs. Kennedy and Phil Willis, we can see Rosemary Willis, who told Gerald Posner that she stopped running when she heard that first shot, coming to a complete stop. Look at the film. That happened, prior to frame 223.

http://www.jfk-online.com/rosemary-w...-dunckel-2.gif

Rosemary came to a complete stop before 223. You are wrong, Hank. There were at least two early shots. That fact is beyond reasonable doubt.

And here's another one, if that's not enough for. Mrs. Donald Baker testified,

Mrs. BAKER. Well, as I said, I thought it was a firecracker. It looked just like you could see the sparks from it and I just thought it was a firecracker..

How could she have seen "sparks", rising from the pavement, from the 223 shot, that passed through two men?

Wow, that's persuasive. Not. I find more of the same cherry-picking you've done before, along with a large helping of your interpretations of what the various witnesses meant. You assume the witnesses are absolutely correct when it suits your purposes, but dismiss their accounts when it doesn't.

For example:

Mrs. Kennedy heard a 'noise'. Not a gunshot, and likened it to all the other noises she heard during the motorcade. Including motorcycle backfires. To you, that's somehow evidence of a gunshot.

Not to me.

John Connally heard only two gunshots, and was struck with one of them, with the other one, he testified, hitting JFK in the head. To you, that's evidence of two early shots (and supposedly, two or three or more later ones). In addition, as mentioned before, Connally was a victim of the gunfire and didn't even realize he was shot in the wrist or thigh until he was told so during his recovery process. You think his testimony is somehow solid evidence of an additional gunshot.

It's not to me.

Mrs. Baker heard a 'firecracker', and thought she saw sparks from it. To you, that's evidence of a gunshot.

Not to me.

A young child (six years old?) in 1963, Rosemary Willis claims something in the early 1990's that she isn't on record as saying at any time prior. You find her nearly three-decade later recollection credible (as you did with a federal agent - Frank Ellsworth - who recalled seeing a rifle on a different floor in the TSBD). We saw how well that went for you. You think her recollection of hearing a gunshot three decades after the fact is evidence of a gunshot.

It's not to me.

I'm sorry, your arguments here are not persuasive. Other witnesses gave contrary accounts. Clint Hill, Roy Kellerman, and Bill Greer all heard just one shot before the head shot. You ignore their testimony (or 'reinterpret' it to your liking), and that of the testimony of others, to somehow think you can claim evidence for at least four, and possibly five or more shots during the assassination. But to get to four or more, you must invoke shooters that left no evidence behind from where they shot, left no evidence behind of hitting their target at any time, and also used weapons firing bullets that weren't heard.

I find that rationalization of the evidence beyond amazing.

There's no evidence for four or five shots (more witnesses heard two shots than heard four or more) and there's no evidence for the additional shooters you conjecture.

I'm sorry, but it's true.

Hank

 

[Robert Harris]

You make quite a few assertions in the above, but document very few of them.

Where is the evidence to support your assertions about a bullet recovered in the operating room? You cite the non-evidence of a published book ghost-written by another man.

I cited Connally's first hand statement, from his autobiography. Are you actually calling Mickey Herskowitz a liar?? This man's reputation is impeccable. He has written for numerous other celebrities, including an American president. From Wikipedia:

He has authored over 30 books, many of them jointly written autobiographies of famous Americans in politics, sports and media (including Gene Autry, Nolan Ryan, Paul “Bear” Bryant, George Allen, Tom Kite, John Connally and Prescott Bush), and others ghostwritten autobiographies of celebrities in similar fields (including Dan Rather, Mickey Mantle, Howard Cosell, Bette Davis, Shirley Jones, Marty Ingels and Gene Tierney).

This man has NEVER been accused of lying or misrepresenting the people he wrote for, and he was citing Connally's first person statements.

"..the most curious discovery of all took place when they rolled me off the stretcher, and onto the examining table. A metal object fell to the floor, with a click no louder than a wedding band. The nurse picked it up and slipped it into her pocket."

Connally was corroborated by Dallas District attorney, Henry Wade. This is from his interview by the Dallas Morning news on 11/21/93. You can confirm that, via the Dallas Morning News website at http://www.dallasnews.com/

And you can read the entire interview here:

http://jfkhistory.com/Wade.html


I also went out to see (Gov. John) Connally, but he was in the operating room. Some nurse had a bullet in her hand, and said this was on the gurney that Connally was on. I talked with Nellie Connally a while and then went on home.

Q: What did you do with the bullet? Is this the famous pristine bullet people have talked about?

A: I told her to give it to the police, which she said she would. I assume that's the pristine bullet.

Further corroboration came from officer Bobby Nolan, who was guarding Connally's room. This is from an interview I made of him, about three years ago. With his permission, the interview was recorded, and can be heard in this presentation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvqCtaBkyyE

Nolan: I was talking to a man who was one of governor Connally's aides. His name was - I think it was either Stinton or Stimmons (Bill Stinson). And he was an aide to the Governor. And she came up and told him that she had the bullet that came off of the gurney.

Now I don't know what gurney. I think they meant Governor Connally's gurney. And she said, "What do you want me to do with it?" He and I were just sitting there in the hallway talking to me and said, "Give it to him"

Q. Was it a bullet fragment or a complete bullet?

Nolan: I don't know. It was a - they told me that is was a bullet.

And I don't know if it was a fragment of a bullet or a whole bullet because it was in a little, small brown envelope. And it was sealed and it was about, I'd say 2 by 3 inches. And it was in that envelope when I got it and I never did look at it or anything."

Q. Now when the nurse gave it to you, did she describe it as a bullet fragment or as a bullet.

Nolan: Uh no. She just said it was a bullet. That's all.

Nearly every one of your paragraphs above can be followed by the simple question: "What's the evidence for this claim?"

They were all sourced in the article I linked for you.

http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/BellArticle.html

And by the way, links to articles written by conspiracy theorists are not evidence.

So, no one who disagrees with you can be presenting valid evidence? Is that REALLY what you are claiming?

The clincher to this, is one little word, "GURNEY". A nurse in scrubs, emerging from the surgery of a gunshot victim, carrying a bullet, is not supposed to have gotten it from a gurney. She is supposed to have acquired it from the surgery.

It is the improbability of that term that makes it such a certainty.

The FBI claimed that nursing supervisor Audrey Bell told them that she gave an envelope containing a single fragment to Nolan. If that were true, my case would go down the commode, but guess what?

Yep, Bell was adamant that the FBI misrepresented her and that she never gave her envelope, which actually contained four tiny fragments, Nolan or any other uniformed cop. She gave it to plain clothed agents, AKA suits.

Surprise, surprise!

From the ARRB:

When shown an FBI FD-302 dated November 23,1963 (Agency File Number 000919, Record# 180-l 0090-10270), she felt it was inaccurate in two respects: it quotes her as turning over “the metal fragment (singular),” whereas she is positive it was multiple fragments - it says she
turned over the fragment to a Texas State Trooper, whereas she recalls turning it over to plainclothes Federal agents who were either FBI or Secret Service.


Need any more sources, Hank?

 

[Regnad Kcin]

If there were flaws, you would be able to describe them, with specificity.

While possible, I can't recall anyone being so thoroughly rebutted as you have been during your time here. I doubt very much any meager further addition of mine would prove to unjam the logs of your thinking.

 

[Loss Leader]

The clincher to this, is one little word, "GURNEY". A nurse in scrubs, emerging from the surgery of a gunshot victim, carrying a bullet, is not supposed to have gotten it from a gurney. She is supposed to have acquired it from the surgery.

It is the improbability of that term that makes it such a certainty.

That has to be the least persuasive argument I've ever read.

I implore you to study - not history - but the manner in which historians actually piece together information. I don't think you're going about it correctly.

 

[Pope130]

I'm tired of the thread going in circles with no evidence to support the same tired assumptions.

Lets do something new.


Lets assume you were the guy responsible for killing JFK and you had the budget it would take to make even a mundane conspiracy claim. Lets say a few million dollars it would take to establish a "second Oswald" as some theories claim. How would you spend two million dollars to assassinate JFK and frame somebody else. Cheapest, most reliable, and least incriminating suggestion gets the contract... (There is a point here)

I've considered this idea before; "If I were planning this..."

My best scenario is to catch him at the apartment of one of his girlfriends after he has shaken the Secret Service. Burst in, shoot them both, leave a mystery. Is it a mob hit? Maybe a jealous boyfriend? Obsessed Marilyn Monroe fan?

The great advantage is that family and friends of the deceased assist in the cover-up because of the embarrassing circumstances.

 

[HSienzant]

I'm tired of the thread going in circles with no evidence to support the same tired assumptions.

Lets do something new.


Lets assume you were the guy responsible for killing JFK and you had the budget it would take to make even a mundane conspiracy claim. Lets say a few million dollars it would take to establish a "second Oswald" as some theories claim. How would you spend two million dollars to assassinate JFK and frame somebody else. Cheapest, most reliable, and least incriminating suggestion gets the contract... (There is a point here)

Give some psychosomatic drugs to the pilot of AF1... get him on record as visiting a psychologist who fails to realize he's a pilot, and talking of suicide. Then arrange to crash the plane. All you need to do then is control the investigation at the NTSB level. All that can be accomplished with fewer than ten people in the know and less than a half-million in 1963 dollars, I would estimate.

Or better yet, give the pilot one of those drugs that conspiracy theorists like to conjecture caused heart attacks in some of the dead witnesses. Or even better, give it to JFK. Heck, he was taking a ton of stuff from "Dr. Feelgood" (amphetamines and the like). A simple "accidental" overdose from the good doctor would do it (it worked for Michael Jackson).

No patsy required.

Or just release some damaging info about JFK's White House dalliances. It brought down some people in England earlier that year (in the Profumo affair).

Not sure why a patsy is your requirement in the above, but since you stipulate one, none of my above suggestions are eligible and fit what you asked for.

I do doubt an unlimited budget could accomplish everything that's argued for by conspiracy theorists.

The absurdities argued in the name of a JFK conspiracy are beyond belief.

For example, Body Alteration: for every autopsist who you approach, certainly 9 of 10 would NOT agree to be party to such a plan. Yet none of the other people who declined the opportunity to work as part of the team to alter the President's body ever came forward to claim they knew about it. So now you need a kill squad to bump off the 9 who were approached who declined, or you need some important info you can use to blackmail the nine who declined. But the kill squad costs money. And obtaining that info costs time and money.

The same could be argued for every other argument advanced by the conspiracy theorist brigade. For everyone involved in swapping one item of evidence that didn't implicate Oswald for one piece that did, again, 9 of 10 people approached must have declined before the conspirators found one willing to do it. None of those approached to take part came forward, so they must have been silenced somehow.

It adds up quickly, as does the Oswald doubles and the forgers who need to forge his signature on documents. And the experts who were needed to testify the way the conspirators wanted. And you need someone to kill the kill squad, the forgers, the experts and the doubles (both those who declined and those who accepted), or blackmail them all into silence, because they might talk about how the conspirators approached them and reveal the inner workings.... you can see how this can add up to real money very quickly.

But conspiracy theorists argue -- as Bob Harris does here in this thread currently, but he is by no means alone -- that much of the hard evidence implicating Oswald is planted, merely because it conflicts with their theories and they can find one witness somewhere who once said something different, even if they had to wait 30 years or more for the counter-claim to surface. It apparently never occurs to them to re-assess their theory in light of the fact the hard evidence disproves it. Or if it does occur to them, they quickly dismiss it as not worthy of consideration.

Bob Harris has argued that a second rifle was found on a different floor of the TSBD. But what happened to it, and why isn't it in the evidence record? He doesn't say. Someone on the inside must have been responsible for bringing it in, someone on the inside must have been responsible for bringing it out. And not being seen either time. How does one accomplish that feat? Who is the most likely candidate? Were others approached and declined? Why no statements from them? Why no evidence of this supposed other rifle, other than a recollection of hearsay from three decades after the fact from one man?

Hank

 

[Sandy McCroskey]

I must be very dense, as no one else has mentioned it, but I can't fathom the allusion to whales in the title of the new thread.

 

[Robert Harris]

Wow, that's persuasive. Not. I find more of the same cherry-picking you've done before, along with a large helping of your interpretations of what the various witnesses meant.

No you don't. If you did, you would have been specific about the witnesses I misinterpreted.

And how can I be "cherry picking" when there are no other witnesses who contradicted me?

You assume the witnesses are absolutely correct when it suits your purposes, but dismiss their accounts when it doesn't.

You know very well, that that is untrue. And you will prove it by failing to produce even a single, valid example of me doing that.

Mrs. Kennedy heard a 'noise'. Not a gunshot, and likened it to all the other noises she heard during the motorcade. Including motorcycle backfires. To you, that's somehow evidence of a gunshot.

No sir - that is what the 160 shot sounded like. That is why most witnesses didn't recognize it as a gunshot.

THAT is why we see no startle reactions to the early shots, even remotely similar to these:

jfkhistory.com/ducking.gif

or the ones following 313.

That is why we see all the happy, smiling faces in the Altgens photo, taken at 255 after at least two (or whatever number you want to fabricate) shots have been fired. Look at Dave Powers, grinning ear to ear.

http://jfkhistory.com/altgens.jpg

The early shots could not possibly have come from an unsuppressed, high powered rifle - Oswald's or anyone else's. If they had, we would be seeing people screaming and diving to the ground, as well as Secret Service agents grabbing their guns and running for the limo, prior to 223.

That is why none of the Secret Service agents did more than look around, prior to 285. NOTHING they heard prior to that, sounded like a real gunshot.

And why do you ignore the fact that Mrs. Kennedy was fully corroborated by Phil Willis, who had her centered in the lens of his camera at the time?

When I took slide No. 4, the President was smiling and waving and looking straight ahead, and Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of the street. When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just snap in that direction

He reaffirmed that in this statement,

In slide No. 4 he was looking pretty much toward--straight ahead, and she was looking more to the left, which would be my side of the street. Then when the first shot was fired, she turned to the right toward him

Another witness, who reacted similarly to Mrs. Connally, was SA George Hickey. He stated,

After a very short distance I heard a loud report which sounded like a firecracker. It appeared to come from the right and rear and seemed to me to be at ground level. I stood up and looked to my right and rear in an attempt to identify it.

I'm sure you know how to spot Hickey in the wide version of the Zapruder film. He is in the back seat of the followup car, behind the driver. Watch him closely.

Notice that well before the limo emerges from behind the Stemmons sign, he has started to rise and turn to his right. By 255, when the Altgens photo was taken, he will be fully risen and turned to the rear. But this is when he began those movements - once again, well before 223.

http://jfkhistory.com/hickey.gif

And while you are studying Hickey, also notice John Ready, standing on the right running board, and turning to his right, prior to 223. This is from his original report,

I was about 25-30 feet from President Kennedy who was located in the right rear seat. I heard what appeared to be fire crackers going off from my position. I immediately turned to my right rear trying to locate the source

How many more witnesses will it take, Hank?

[/QUOTE]John Connally heard only two gunshots, and was struck with one of them, with the other one, he testified, hitting JFK in the head. [/QUOTE]

Yes, he HEARD only two gunshots. But they were in addition to the one that hit him.

READ HIS TESTIMONY.

Shot 1: We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot

Shot 2: Obviously, at least the major wound that I took in the shoulder through the chest couldn't have been anything but the second shot.

Shot 3: and then, of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. I heard it hit him.

Obviously, the second shot was silent.

Mr. SPECTER.. Governor, you have described hearing a first shot and a third shot. Did you hear a second shot?

Governor CONNALLY. No; I did not.

Neither did anyone else.

Now, if you want to accuse me of "cherry picking", here is your chance. John Connally was the only surviving passenger in the limo who heard no more than one shot at the end of the attack. In fact, it may be that he heard 285 but not 313, since he was getting very close to losing consciousness then.

But there is no doubt that he heard the shot 150-160, which was prior to him being wounded, and the shot at 223, which he clearly reacted to, but which no one else heard either.

To you, that's evidence of two early shots

Well of course it is, just as it is evidence to pretty much everyone else on the planet who's studied this thing

(and supposedly, two or three or more later ones).

No, Connally's statements are evidence for shots at 160 and 223, as well as one of the shots at the end. Please do not distort or try to exaggerate what I say.

In addition, as mentioned before, Connally was a victim of the gunfire and didn't even realize he was shot in the wrist or thigh until he was told so during his recovery process. You think his testimony is somehow solid evidence of an additional gunshot.

The irony of you accusing me of selectively agreeing with witnesses is getting very thick around here Last week, he was your star witness

Connally heard the shot circa 160 BEFORE he was hit. There is no reason to doubt him at all, on that shot. And it is quite easy to see that he was hit at 223, as I think, we both agree, do we not?

Mrs. Baker heard a 'firecracker', and thought she saw sparks from it. To you, that's evidence of a gunshot.

Not to me.

It's "evidence" to Gerald Posner and every other nutter I have encountered, prior to you.

But then, they weren't aware of the little problem with only one of the early shots being audible.

A young child (six years old?) in 1963, Rosemary Willis claims something in the early 1990's that she isn't on record as saying at any time prior.

LOL! She wasn't "on record", saying anything about the case before Gerald Posner interviewed her. And it doesn't exactly require adulthood to remember stopping when she heard a gunshot.

Have you noticed Hank, that you never produce evidence to support your attacks on all these witnesses. You attack them for the solitary reason that they disagree with you. Never mind, that even your fellow LN advocates don't agree with you either.

You are judging witnesses based on whether they support your "theory", when what you should be doing is basing your theories on THEM.

Conclusions should be drawn from evidence, not visa versa.

Other witnesses gave contrary accounts. Clint Hill, Roy Kellerman, and Bill Greer all heard just one shot before the head shot.

YES!! Practically everyone in Dealey Plaza that day, only HEARD one of the early shots - just like John Connally.

And the absolute clincher here, is that whether you think there was one early shot or a dozen, NONE OF THEM were loud enough to provoke startle reactions like we see following 285 and 313.

When were you planning to address that fact?

The HSCA confirmed that Oswald's rifle generated 130 decibels at street level. That's 16 TIMES louder than 90db, the point at which involuntary startle reactions will occur. Other high powered rifles are even louder.

If Oswald had fired all the shots, the earliest would have been the loudest and most startling to the ears of the limo passengers.

Where do we see people simultaneously ducking, spinning around, shielding their ears, etc? Why don't we see reactions like these, any time prior to 285?

http://jfkhistory.com/ducking.gif

You need to address this issue, Hank. It is incredibly important. We're talking about involuntary reactions. If the 223 shot came from an unsuppressed, high powered rifle, we would have seen the same kind of reactions we see, following the shots at the end.

Why don't we see that?

 

[Border Reiver]

That is untrue. Even "axman" has stated,

The only silenced rifles considered reliable in 1963 were 9mm or .45 caliber.

Yes, the Deslile Carbine, a Lee Enfield No.4 modified to take a .45 ACP cartridge and made with an integral suppressor. Very popular with SOE and OSS during WWII. It was a very effective weapon - out to about 50 metres. After that range, the subsonic ammunitiion was of lower lethality and accuracy due to the rather substantial bullet drop.

He has failed to document that assertion, but subsonic ammunition for both of those calibers was and is, commonly available. So at the very least, he has confirmed that two of the most popular calibers of rifles/ammunition could have been used.

.45ACP and 9mm Parabellum are pistol calibres, not rifle rounds, first of all.

Second, where is the physical evidence that would support the use of such a weapon? Casings, bullet strikes, etc.

Without such evidence all you have is speculation.

 

[vtbub]

I'm tired of the thread going in circles with no evidence to support the same tired assumptions.

Lets do something new.


Lets assume you were the guy responsible for killing JFK and you had the budget it would take to make even a mundane conspiracy claim. Lets say a few million dollars it would take to establish a "second Oswald" as some theories claim. How would you spend two million dollars to assassinate JFK and frame somebody else. Cheapest, most reliable, and least incriminating suggestion gets the contract... (There is a point here)

Does it have to be shooting him in public?

An overdose of barbituates in the private quarters would do the trick nicely. Pay off some people and voila.

If I was in charge of ensuring a public death, Main Street with throngs of people and many buildings to target, not TSBD or the knoll.

 

[Tomtomkent]

There are only three proven shots. Two hit the passengers, one hit the traffic gantry.

Robert: Being able to show us that you think what witnesses saw or heard is compatible with any other shot, rather than assuming the Z film shows 'startle reactions', why not show us the physical evidence for other bullets being fired.

Show us the bullets, or their impact on physical evidence, then you can discuss as and when they may have been fired.

If you can not show us that the bullets made any mark on the world, then no matter how convinced you happen to be, it can not be stated with any confidence that anybody reacted to bullets over any other noise in the chaotic situation.

Please stop trying to dress speculation as fact.

 

[Robert Harris]

While possible, I can't recall anyone being so thoroughly rebutted as you have been during your time here.

What was the best refutation you've seen?

 

[RoboTimbo]

No you don't. If you did, you would have been specific about the witnesses I misinterpreted.

Yes he did and yes he has. Multiple times. You've ignored the rebuttals which point out the fatal flaws to your arguments every time.

And how can I be "cherry picking" when there are no other witnesses who contradicted me?

Other than the ones who contradicted you, you mean?

Tell us more about the other rifle found in the TSBD on a different floor. What happened to it? Which shots were fired from it? How many spent casings were found on the other floor belonging to that rifle? Who fired it? Was it also suppressed? At which frames of the Z film do you see evidence of shots from that rifle? There would be some distinctive flinches, right?

Also, share what you know about the shooter in the storm drain. At which frames do you see evidence of shots from there? More flinches which you would be able to tell just from looking that it was from shots from the storm drain, right?

 

[Robert Harris]

That has to be the least persuasive argument I've ever read.

You couldn't possibly be more wrong.

The fact that Connally, Wade and Nolan, ALL talked about the bullet coming from a "gurney", is the clincher.

It is so unintuitive, that it couldn't have been a mistake or a misunderstanding.

The bullet that Connally described, was indeed, the one that wounded him and probably JFK. It couldn't possibly have been the same one that Tomlinson found.

Nor could the bullet that Tomlinson found have been CE399, which is why all four of the men who handled it prior to it going to the FBI, refused to confirm it, and why neither of the initials of the two men who marked the Tomlinson bullet can be found on CE399. READ THE ARTICLE.

http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/BellArticle.html

 

[Robert Harris]

Does it have to be shooting him in public?

Every American president who has been assassinated, has been assassinated in public.

And every failed attempt to assassinate an American president has been carried out in public.

Obviously, folks who do this kind of thing are not as bright as you are

 

[Robert Harris]

There are only three proven shots.

That is untrue. We can be certain that at least four were fired, at 150-160, 223, 285 and 313. There may have been others.

Two hit the passengers one hit the traffic gantry.

There is no evidence that a bullet hit the traffic light or any part of it. There may however, have been an earlier shot, fired prior to Zapruder turning his camera back on at 133. I discuss it during the first few minutes of this presentation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvqCtaBkyyE

Robert: Being able to show us that you think what witnesses saw or heard is compatible with any other shot, rather than assuming the Z film shows 'startle reactions', why not show us the physical evidence for other bullets being fired.

Rather than request a specific evidence type, because you believe I don't have it, why not ask simply for good evidence that would be persuasive in a courtroom? That's like asking for DNA evidence for global warming

There is however, rock solid, hard evidence that the bullet which hit JFK and Connally was not fired from Oswald's rifle. That includes the hard evidence that CE399 was not the bullet that was found by Daryl Tomlinson and was not the bullet that wounded John Connally. You can read about it in this article as well as in my recent discussion with Hank.

http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/BellArticle.html

Don't you think you should also be concerned about the scientific evidence, produced by two of the top scientists in the U.S, who found that there was a loud and startling noise which took place at precisely the instant the limo passengers as well as Abraham Zapruder, reacted?

Why aren't you asking me about the empirical evidence of three people simultaneously ducking, while two others spun away from the probable source of that shot, all in the same 1/6th of one second? Don't you want to know why that happened?

http://jfkhistory.com/ducking.gif

Show us the bullets, or their impact on physical evidence, then you can discuss as and when they may have been fired.

There are no verifiable bullets that have ever been entered into evidence. CE399 was obviously, not fired during the assassination.

However, there was a lead smear discovered on the Main St. curbing, which was believed to have been from the bullet that caused debris to fly into the face of James Tague, nicking his cheek and causing a trickle of blood.

That bullet was almost certainly, the one fired at 285, which was the second audible shot, as Tague himself, stated. Likewise, Bill Greer felt the "concussion" from the shock wave of what he described as the "second shot". That is precisely what he should have felt from the passing, supersonic bullet.

The shot missed JFK and went on to shatter on the pavement, breaking apart and sending a chunk of lead to strike the Main St. curbing and a tiny piece of debris to nick Tague.

The "hard evidence" alone, is enough to prove that Oswald was not the only shooter. The scientific and empirical evidence makes that a certainty beyond any possible doubt.

 

[Robert Harris]

Second, where is the physical evidence that would support the use of such a weapon? Casings, bullet strikes, etc.

Without such evidence all you have is speculation.

That is untrue.

The proof that at least one suppressed weapon was used, is that almost no one heard more than one of the early shots. Even John Connally never heard the shot at 223, that hit him.

If you have a better explanation for why that happened, I would be delighted to hear it.

Oswald's rifle was proven to generate 130 decibels at street level. That's 16 times louder than the level at which involuntary startle reactions will occur. We see clear startle reactions following 285 and 313, but nothing even remotely similar, prior to 285.

http://jfkhistory.com/ducking.gif

The one early shot that was heard - circa 150-160, also never provoked startle reactions and might have only been heard because it struck the pavement, shattering and causing "sparks" to rise up. The 223 shot only passed through human tissue, so remained totally silent.

 

[Loss Leader]

I must be very dense, as no one else has mentioned it, but I can't fathom the allusion to whales in the title of the new thread.

It was a reference to Star Trek IV and was written by this moderator.

Any further discussion of the title should take place in another thread.

Posted By: Loss Leader

 

[Robert Harris]

But conspiracy theorists argue -- as Bob Harris does here in this thread currently, but he is by no means alone -- that much of the hard evidence implicating Oswald is planted

I said no such thing, and it's getting a bit tiring, hearing you misrepresent me.

CE399 couldn't possibly have been planted. If it had, the men who originally handled it, would have had no problem confirming it, and the initials of SA Johnsen and FBI agent Todd, would have been on it.

CE399 was very obviously, not the bullet that Tomlinson found. When the FBI discovered that the original was not fired by Oswald, they undoubtedly fired a round from Oswald's rifle into water or wadding and then presented it to the WC.

In addition to the unanimous refusal of those four men to confirm CE399 and the absence of the markings of Johnsen and Todd, it is obvious that they discovered Tomlinson's bullet did not match with fragments they received just before midnight on 11/22/63. Why else would they have needed to call Tomlinson in the wee hours of 11/23 to tell him to keep his mouth shut about the bullet he found?

This is from the recorded 1967 interview of Tomlinson by Ray Marcus. The interview is also documented in the HSCA records.

Tomlinson: On Friday morning about 12:30 to 1 o'clock - uh, excuse me, that's Saturday morning - after the assassination, the FBI woke me up on the phone and told me to to keep my mouth shut.

Marcus: About the circumstances of your finding the bullet?

Tomlinson: That is (one short word, unintelligible) what I found…

Marcus: I understand exactly what you mean, when they call you, it's pretty authoritative. But the thing is this, did they say - was there any particular thing about what they said or they just didn't want you to talk about it period?

Tomlinson: Just don't talk about it period.

Bob Harris has argued that a second rifle was found on a different floor of the TSBD.

You need to start citing me VERBATIM, Hank. I said that Frank Ellsworth made that claim, and that if true, it would explain both the alleged Mauser and Oswald's rifle being present in the Depository. It would also explain the evidence suggesting that the two, unsuppressed rifle shots came from the 6th floor.

You pointed out that people from the DPD contradicted him, but they were subordinate to the FBI, whose stated agenda, directly from Hoover, was that the public must be convinced that Oswald acted alone. The FBI had already carried out that agenda when they covered up deception by Jack Ruby, when he denied during his polygraph test, being associated with Oswald and the conspiracy.

They also fabricated evidence, replacing the actual bullets found at Parkland, with one they produced themselves.

Therefore, any testimony coming from the FBI or DPD, must be taken with a rather large grain of salt.

But NO, that bullet was very obviously, NOT planted.

But what happened to it, and why isn't it in the evidence record?

Both Tomlinson's bullet and the one that wounded Connally, wound up at the FBI. You need to ask them that question.

He doesn't say.

Actually, I have, but only for the last 20 years

Someone on the inside must have been responsible for bringing it in

You really need to stop misrepresenting me. If you are confused about my analysis, reread my articles and watch my presentations. As a last resort, just PM me and ask