Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vixen]

What it isn't is unnatural. BTW, my experience with normal British girls is that they like to shag as much as American girls. We have frigid prudes in the US that think sex is dirty too. So your not alone. My experience is that the only girls who view sex as dirty either can't attract a man or have trouble achieving orgasm.

That's your straw man.

 

[Vixen]

No its not. Plea bargaining which is very common in the US is ususally a negotiation over charrges and sentencing in exchange for forgoing a trial. But it takse many forms, so your not totally wrong, just not totally right.

Rudy did not plead guilty in exchange for nailing Amanda and Raff, and thereby getting a lesser sentence. Your erroneous claim Italy has plea bargaining "just like in the USA" falls at the first hurdle.

Do your homework before making assertions that informed posters know to be patently untrue.

 

[Vixen]

The positive aspect of your misstatements in the above post is that one can rebut them by merely providing a definition of "plea bargain". Here is one such definition (with commentary):

A plea bargain is a negotiated agreement between a criminal defendant and a prosecutor in which the defendant agrees to plead "guilty" or "no contest" to some crimes, along with possible conditions, such as attending anger management classes, in return for reduction of the severity of the charges, dismissal of some of the charges, or some other benefit to the defendant. A defendant must uphold his or her end of the deal, such as pleading guilty on a particular date, cooperating in the investigation of another offense, or testifying against a co-defendant, or the plea bargain may be revoked.

Plea bargaining helps save the time and expense of trials by allowing the prosecutor to obtain guilty pleas in cases that might otherwise go to trial. The judge must approve the plea bargain before accepting the plea. Critics of plea bargaining argue that it may be used to coerce confessions to crimes the defendant didn't commit, and that it results in dangerous offenders being set free too early.

Source: http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/plea-bargain/

Note that in my post that you reference I did not state that the patteggiamento was the exact equivalent of the US plea bargain. What I stated was:

The patteggiamento is indeed the closest Italian equivalent of the US plea bargain; it is indeed a negotiated conviction. {Italics added for emphasis.}

However, the patteggiamento procedure (CPP Article 444) does provide a benefit for the defendant, just as a plea bargain may, in that the financial or imprisonment penalty imposed is reduced by a factor of one-third compared to the sentence that would otherwise be imposed for the same circumstances in a regular trial (giudizio).

I shall repeat my earlier statement that your posts, Vixen, are full of ignorant claims and false statements. Your posts and the truth appear to be distant strangers.

Rudy did not plead guilty, so your claim he underwent plea bargaining for a lesser sentence is an ignorant and false statement coming from someone who likes to present himself as learned in the law.

 

[Vixen]

Yes, and the Fast Track is more like an embarrassment to the legal system and a insult to the Kerchers.

Amanda and Raff benefited from the same mitigating circumstances.

The fact that they wilfully chose to claim innocence, is an aggravating factor they brought on themselves.

 

[Vixen]

Hey Vixen,

It has been contended here that the cottage was cleaned thoroughly just before the murder. Since that would be a great thing for the prosecution and PGP, can you explain why the prosecution never brought up this stunning revelation?

I am not familiar with that one. Citation, please.

 

[Vixen]

Here, Vixen backing for your contention about the receipts or actually the till. This is by Stewarthome the PGP reporter that told it like it was. I found at the time of the trial to be the best reporter of all.

Marc Quintavalle

The next witness was the highlight of the day. This was Marc Quintavalle, the owner of the small grocery store located on Via Garibaldi, the street that Solliceto lived on. Comment: his testimony was very precise, almost too precise for someone who recalls a long-ago incident from memory, but here goes…

On November 2nd he was heading back to his grocery store after lunch. He parked his car, and noticed there were carabinieri, police, etc. on Via della Pergola. He walked past them all, stopped to get a coffee at the bar on the corner, and then headed back to work. He was told at this time there was a murder.

It was not until many days later that he was told that Sollecito, a frequent customer in his grocery store, had been arrested with his girlfriend for the murder. After some time, he had remembered the day of the murder because he encountered the police and carabinieri cars several days after.Then it hit him what had happened that morning.

He said he arrived at his shop at 7:45am to open the security doors to be open for business. His two cashiers and helpers (two women) get there at 7:30am and begin to get ready for customers before opening time.

He said as he was opening the security gate on the store, a girl was standing at the door with him waiting for the store to open. He remembers that she had a hat on, jeans, a scarf and a grey-white jacket. But most of all he remembers that she had blue, really blue eyes. He noticed because her skin was very pale.

He opened the store door and said “buon giorno” but she did not say anything in response, and she headed to the part of the store [second image at top here] where they stock cleaning products, soap, towels, and also cups, coffee, and miscellaneous household items. The cashier is also located there.

He paid her no attention, but he did see her eventually leave and head down the street in the direction of the piazza that connects to Via della Pergola. Since he was not at the cash register he did not serve her and he could not say what she bought, and he did not think to ask the cashier at that time .

Many days afterwards, he saw a picture of Amanda Knox in the paper and said to himself, “OMG that is her, that is the girl that was at my store that morning”. Having seen her various times previously in the store, he was sure that it was Knox. He confirmed that it was some months later that he went to the police to tell them what he had witnessed the morning after the murder.

The courtroom was on edge when the prosecutor asked Quintavalle to identify the person he saw that morning by looking at a picture.

He finally looked directly at Amanda in the courtroom, staring at her in the eye only a few feet away and stated, “era lei, era Knox…” - ”It was her, it was Knox, she was the person I saw that morning”.

Comments: this was quite a climax of a scene. A direct eye witness testifying, without any doubt in his mind, that in effect Knox was lying about not getting up until around 10am on that morning.

Quintavalle had asked his cashiers if they remembered her or what she had bought that morning, but they did not remember anything. Quintavalle stated that detergent bleach is sold in his store for 1.09 euro per bottle and he carries only one kind (ACE), and they are all 1.09 per bottle.

Comment: if the prosecution introduces a till receipt for a 1.09 euro item sold at approximately 8:00am on November 2nd this would be very telling. So far such a receipt has not been introduced. The Police sequestered the till receipts, but have not officially released the findings. A possible problem is that many places don’t even ring up the items on the register to save the taxes and half probably go missing anyway. But overall, this was quite damning testimony.

The defense attempted to discredit Quintavalle, noting that it was all so long ago and how could anyone say in such detail who was there with any certainty? They also drilled him for supposedly violating a gag order, giving interviews for money, appearing on “Porta a porta” and so on.

Comment: that essentially washed away. I must admit he was so certain, and gave so much detail of what happened that morning after so much time had passed, it seemed like a feat of superhuman memory. But Quintavalle prides himself on his excellent memory, and now his statement is in the record.

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/trial_report_from_the_courtroom_on_testimony/

Many may distrust the site but this report is aces. StewartHome told it like it was and there was no reason that the PGP would make up the receipts being sequestered.

It's a good point. A receipt wasn't issued to save on the VAT output bill. A few small independent stores around my way rarely give itemised receipts, and if you insist on one, it just shows the total.

 

[Vixen]

You did not succumb to ad hominem, so I'll give you that.

Also acquitted at two courts of law. Indeed, the Italian system affords the final say-so to Cassazione, and we've yet to hear the final motivations report.

However, as for the motivations reports from the two convicting courts, there is no readily available listing of lies Amanda and Raffaele were supposed to have told. That's why I mentioned the 13 separate lies claimed by Harry Rag/The Machine who apparently, had to assemble his own list because the courts were not helping his version of the guilter PR lobby.

I've got the list if you want to see it. Thirteen lies claimed by TM/HR. It will surprise you, really, because they are nearly all "reaches" as we say in this neck of the woods.

Or as others have said - they are lies told by people like yourself and HR/TM when trying to vilify two people they do not know.

You are confusing "lying" with "having an opinion". As Harry Rag and/or the Machine are not in the dock, who cares what opinion they hold. It least it's an informed one, and not one based on infantile hero-worship, as advised by acbytesla.

 

[Loss Leader]

Plea bargaining is when a perp agrees to testify against fellow perps with the promise of a lesser sentence.

Absolutely, utterly and objectively incorrect.


(IAMAL)

 

[acbytesla]

Rudy did not plead guilty in exchange for nailing Amanda and Raff, and thereby getting a lesser sentence. Your erroneous claim Italy has plea bargaining "just like in the USA" falls at the first hurdle.

Do your homework before making assertions that informed posters know to be patently untrue.

???? What the hell are you talking about Vixen? Maybe you should read my post before you run your mouth. I never said Rudy did and I challenge you to cite the post where I did.

 

[Ken Dine]

TESLA, you at first claimed the African hairs found in Meredith's bedroom is a meaningless topic since the hairs weren't mentioned in any court records, but now that I produced those court records, now what do you say?
Seriously, the Italian cops focused in on two African suspects within the first 8 days of the murder, so if not the found African hairs, then how else can that be explained?

It certainly wasn't because of anything Alessandra Formica may have witnessed since she didn't come forward until November 12th (and likely she wouldn't have even called the cops about it prior to Nov 10th), and by Nov 10th Mignini had already announced that they were looking for a 2nd African perp...
[ ]

Why are so many of the regulars here resistant to recognizing the obvious about those African hairs found at the crime scene?

Ken,
Stop putting words in my mouth because that ISN'T what I said. I said, that we don't know for sure if it was hairs that made the police look for a suspect of African descent.

NO, you had said, that I had made a MISTAKE by claiming African hairs were found at the crime scene, which you had claimed was idle speculation since it wasn’t in any court records …HEY, I don’t need to put words in your mouth since your post is still here for all to see (pasted below).

You even thanked Grinder for correcting what you claimed was my MISTAKE since it saved you the trouble of needing to correct what you called my MISTAKE.

While I appreciate your passion and your interest, most of these points have been argued hundreeds of times already. You are certainly free to discuss them, but the fact is you are a little late for this party. For most of us, we are already trying to recover from the soiree. In fact, we are past the hangover stage.

I may be late to YOUR party, but I’ve still been discussing this case for years, so even though I’m the new guy here, it doesn’t mean I don't have any understanding of this case.

Since you claim to have discussed this case ad nauseum with nothing now new to be discussed, can you point me to where you guys have previously discussed in this forum THE FACT that Italian CSI had found African hairs in Meredith’s bedroom?
Maybe, I missed your previous discussion here of the African hairs, but it’s a FACT that I didn’t make this up, and that those African hairs are in the MASSEI court’s records.

It’s also a FACT that those African hairs found in Meredith’s bedroom would be the only thing which could possibly explain what happened over the following eight (8) days as Italian police quickly focused in on and then pursued TWO (2) African suspects (Lumumba & Guede).

Here’s your previous posting where you claimed I was speculating and thanking Grinder for correcting my ‘MISTAKES’:

We were very gentle with Vixen for a long time. The difference is that almost every single post is a lie with her. She says Amanda killed Meredith and then repeats the same tired lies.

There are pro innocent falisties as well, I grant you. For example this whole discussion about finding African hairs is not based on court records just speculation and some news reports. While I think it is possible the police were looking for an African man based on some hairs found at the scene, there is no credible proof of that. And frankly, I don't find speculation to be all that valuable.

[TO GRINDER:] I respect your correcting the mistakes. I would have corrected Ken on his mistake as well.

Do you still feel I made a MISTAKE about the African hairs found in Meredith's bedroom?

It certainly doesn't change the March 27th ruling, but the FACT that the Italian CSI had found African hairs in Meredith's bedroom does explain everything that followed.

Granted, those African hairs don't explain why the Italian prosecutor didn't promptly dismiss charges against Amanda & Raffaele after Lumumba was cleared. Instead, Guede (the other African) was merely plugged into Mignini's sexual fantasy, and the rest is history.

 

[Numbers]

Rudy did not plead guilty, so your claim he underwent plea bargaining for a lesser sentence is an ignorant and false statement coming from someone who likes to present himself as learned in the law.

Vixen, you continue to make false statements in your posts. I am confident you do so to provide us with amusement.

I have never claimed that Rudy Guede pleaded guilty. I have never indicated he went through the Italian closest equivalent to the plea bargain process - which is called patteggiamento. He did agree to a fast-track trial - which is called giudizio abbreviato. He certainly received sentence reductions based upon the fast-track trial process and other circumstances, such as expressing regret - not for killing Meredith, but for not seeking help for her when she was mortally wounded - and for committing the crime with others, who were considered more responsible for the criminal act. Those others were named, but were actually innocent.

In terms of legal knowledge, objectively, it appears that your posts are defective in that they do not reflect even a beginning knowledge of legal matters. You are perhaps too busy spinning your fact-free posts in order to slow flood this thread to do any research on legal issues.

My own knowledge of law is no more than what any person could obtain through reading publicly and readily available sources. Your lack of such knowledge is evident in the content of your posts.

 

[acbytesla]

Amanda and Raff benefited from the same mitigating circumstances.

The fact that they wilfully chose to claim innocence, is an aggravating factor they brought on themselves.

No they didn't. Sheesh. BTW, They are INNOCENT.

 

[Vixen]

Perhaps you missed the salient point that the PLE did in fact sequester the cash register records of Q's store. Vixen was correct but the fact, as pointed out by ace reporter SH2000, that nothing of the receipts was ever introduced is a very very strong indication that they found nothing. Not withstanding the PGP fallback that Massei and Mignini were just being nice, it is a clear indication that nothing was found.

But Vixen was right, the cash register info was seized.

Oh and good morning

Gentle reminder: the police not finding the receipts for the bleach does not equate to, "Raff and Amanda did not buy any bleach".

Can I remind peeps, two brand new bottles of ACE - as large as life, as per Randy's video - were found by cops, under Raff's sink.

 

[Vixen]

No. This is not the definition of the term. It is one possible aspect.

That is the context we were discussing here. It's no good changing the subject and hoping no-one notices.

 

[Vixen]

I needed a bank account in my stage name (back when I was playing in a band and getting cheques as a result) so I just sent my driving licence off to the DVLA letting them know I'd changed my name. They sent me back a new driving licence in my stage name, I opened a bank account using that as ID, then sent the driving licence back to the DVLA saying I'd changed the name back again. No problem. Now I have bank accounts in two different names.

Must have been a while ago, as regulators have now brought in strict Money Laundering laws which requires banks are legally required to verify ID of anyone opening an account.

 

[Vixen]

The site isn't Amanda Knox's. It says quite clearly on the front page who it belongs to as well as the top left or middle if you're using an Ipad.

I know having the transcripts printed onto pages is convenient for translating with chrome but there's no guarantee they're even accurate on Ergon's fake wiki. I wouldn't trust them at all.

The IA site only provides the original Italian downloadable PDF's so you know they're legit and the PDF's are much better for searching specific words.

But, whatever works for you.....

Riight. So inaccurate, Amanda herself regularly plagiarises it.

 

[Vixen]

Yes that's a problem. I think the summaries are more likely to mislead.

Thanks as always for your efforts. Do you all have access to everything? Specifically do you have the information that would show if the cash register was sequestered and when? Did the PLE provide all their notes about the case? Does anybody even know when a person first contacted or was contacted by the PLE?

Obviously none of this matters, but for some putting a jigsaw puzzle is a challenge and for others a waste of time. I'm not just interested in what really happened but when and what was known to the defense.

You could write to the Italian version of Companies House and ask to see Quintavalle's stores' financial statements for that year, see if you can spot his revenues from bleach.

 

[Vixen]

They might have wanted bleach to clean shoes or a knife or something else, who knows? Obviously, it's better if all the scraps of evidence build a coherent picture but that doesn't make outliers irrelevant. If it emerged that Amanda really had got up early to buy bleach but had chosen to omit the fact from her accounts, are you saying that would be irrelevant unless it could be shown what the bleach was for? Pshaw! You're simply wrong.

It's a matter of fact Amanda is an early bird, and rarely gets up later than 5:00am. So what was the factor that made her lie in bed until 10:00am on the post-murder morning?

Or so she claims. We know someone was belting out Fight Club and Nirvana at 5:30 in the morning at Raff's.

 

[Vixen]

Because as with every other assertion made by the prosecution, eg the clean up or staged break in, if there is no evidence then we will just assume it is true. We can even make it a judicial truth and then no one can argue against it.

Here's a clue Vixen, if the police go to great pains to find something and cannot find what they were looking for, the chances are that it didn't happen.

Poor logic. The police are forever searching for murder weapons, but rarely find them. Does that mean the murder never happened?

 

[Vixen]

I would argue that Amanda seemed to trust the system and the other only thing she seems to have lied about is the use of pot.

Jerboah, that's really funny. I like it.