Treating Other People With Respect

Isn't it more productive to focus on their arguments, if I want to engage them at all?

Now there's a key issue. Speaking for myself, I tend ignore people who are either stupid, or overtly politically correct.*

*While I'm sure the two groups overlap, there are many people out there who are stupid** without being politically correct about it. **I meant to say "mentally disadvantaged".
 
I don't work for an airline, so I don't have to confront the matter. As to using the terms a person insists be used for them, I've already covered that back in [url="http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10835507#post10835507]post #325[/url].

Yeah, I know you said you won't be polite to an overweight or obese person. I'm asking if you want to be.

TeapotCavalry says you do want to be polite, even if you don't show it, because evolution.
 
You can turn this around, too. There are people who are overtly politically incorrect and go to some effort to make sure they are. An example would be someone who consciously chooses to never use the words, "undocumented immigrant." Especially if they think there's a chance using "illegal alien" instead may annoy the person they are communicating with.

Another example -- that predates the Forum (and also the Internet!) -- but there was a huge deal made out of the fact that back in the 1960s and 1970s some African-Americans began to ask people to use the word "black" not "Negro" to describe African-Americans. Some people immediately objected to that, insisting that "Negro" was the term they had always used, there was nothing wrong with it and they would continue to use it. And continue to use it they did.

But it was more than just word choice; it essentially became a political term. For instance back in 1976 when you heard a caller on a radio call-in show (the '70s version of Internet message boards) say, "Negroes claim they still face pervasive discrimination," you could be pretty sure the caller was going to be someone who would argue passionately that they didn't. And you'd usually be right.

The equivalent today is someone who makes a point of using the term illegal alien. When someone does that I think it's more than just a word choice. It tells you something about that person's politics. It's almost like a warning: you're about to have a discussion with someone who has a personal hostility about this subject. ;)
 
So if I want to discuss US health policy, specifically about policies to address the obesity problem, can I refer to 'obese people' without being accused of disrespect?

In the context of a medical condition, I don't see why not.

***

People seem to think of words as taboo. It's not the words. It's a particular usage, a socio-linguistic meaning or connotation, that can be harmful, or innocuous. In the end, politeness is about seeking not to insult, words and meanings are context-dependent. Political correctness, OTOH, is getting fixated on the forms, not the meanings, and on enforcing a legalistic attitude deprived of the principles it purports to uphold. Truth mongering, even with the best intentions, is forgetting its provisional, error-prone, best-fit nature and the fallibility of the hands that wield it.

PC is strictly for the formulaicly-minded who enjoy received opinion, as well as pander allegiance to garner the social approval reserved for those 'in tune.' Makes me want to engage in an involuntary digestive protein spill.

$0.02
 
TeapotCavalry says you do want to be polite, even if you don't show it, because evolution.

Please don't straw man me constantly. Do you not remember the "most" and "majority" parts of my claim? And it was social evolution, not just "evolution". You're now intentionally twisting my words.

And for all I know, Corsair 115 might be a sociopath exhibiting explicit antisocial behavior :) The good-mannered level-headed internet persona is just a ruse.
 
And for all I know, Corsair 115 might be a sociopath exhibiting explicit antisocial behavior :) The good-mannered level-headed internet persona is just a ruse.


Damn it! I'm caught!

I would have gotten away with it too were it not for you meddling kids forum members!
 
And for all I know, Corsair 115 might be a sociopath exhibiting explicit antisocial behavior :) The good-mannered level-headed internet persona is just a ruse.


Alternative reply:

You haven't seen my 'work' in the Hugo Awards thread in the History, Literature, and the Arts section, have you? :D (I am half-tempted to try and get my forum name changed to Heretical Gadfly.)
 
People accusing the OP of having the definition of "respect" wrong are needlessly engaging in hair splitting.

It's usually unproductive to insist that someone is mistaken about the meaning of a word instead of addressing what they perfectly understood it to mean. It becomes a bit ridiculous when the meaning given by the OP is so common. Just google the exact phrase "treated with respect" and see for yourselves in case you're unfamiliar with that particular use (which I doubt).

On policital correctness, I'm very familiar with the expression. The Wikipedia definition and other similar ones that appeared in this thread don't come off as a surprise. That's more or less what I expected to see. It's definitely not a meaningless expression, unlike "jeopotillian", which I just made up.

I'm not on either side (is that meta-politically correct?). I go on a case by case basis mainly because this expression covers a lot of ground (probably more than it was originally meant if we go by its actual, real usage). I'm generally inclined to avoid euphemisms like the ridiculous "people of size", "people of color", etc. while I'm also aware that using expressions with derogatory connotations is generally not a good idea unless you want to offend someone. Sometimes, describing people as black can be more useful than describing their clothes, and going out of your way to avoid saying "the black guy" makes me think that a society that encourages people to act that way has still racial issues that no amount of euphemisms is going to disguise (quite the contrary). Also, the obsession with the "N word", pointed out earlier by Lorentz, baffles me. Just some examples of what I perceive of "PCness gone mad".

But there's also one thing about the use of this expression that hasn't been stressed enough so far. The expression is massively overused by conservatives who very often extend its meaning to "anything liberal". The fact that the expression is derogatory and applies mainly to liberal views was a perfect recipe for this semantic slippery slope. For example, I've been accused of being politically correct for having a skeptic approach by people who regard homosexuality as a clinical condition, people who make hasty generalizations about Muslims, blacks, etc. and other typical irrational beliefs coming from the right end of the spectrum. This use, even if it's misuse, exists, and needs to be acknowledged because it creates misunderstandings and misperceptions about the different "sides".

I'll side with Upchurch in that accusing someone of being too PC doesn't add anything useful to a debate. Even if it's true. I don't usually call people on their PCness for the same reason I don't call them on their stupidity, even if I think they're too PC or stupid. If I think someone is being too stupid or too PC, that's probably because I'm seeing flaws in their arguments. Isn't it more productive to focus on their arguments, if I want to engage them at all?

This is a very reasonable and clearly thought out post. I agree with all of your main points. Case by case is really the way to go- silly arguments over vague generalized terms don't accomplish much, I don't think.

Just to chime in on one of the details: "People of color" doesn't sound ridiculous to me--it sounds roughly as normal as "non-whites". I think whether or not something sounds ridiculous has more to do with familiarity than with anything else.
 
Just to chime in on one of the details: "People of color" doesn't sound ridiculous to me--it sounds roughly as normal as "non-whites".


Except for one thing: if you reverse the grammatical construction of 'person of color' into 'colored person' I doubt it would be well-received. In spite of it being simply the grammatical reverse of the original term.
 
Except for one thing: if you reverse the grammatical construction of 'person of color' into 'colored person' I doubt it would be well-received. In spite of it being simply the grammatical reverse of the original term.

Because two words or word-phrases with the same denotations (literal meaning) can have different connotations.
 
"Same denotations (literal meaning)" indicates that it refers to the same group..
 
Someone ought to have come up with a better term... unless the objective was to take the older term, invert it, and then use as some form of irony.
 
And yet other than the order of the words it's intended to refer to the same group.

Not necessarily. Colored is considered a specific group in many areas. I don't think it would have been traditional to refer to asian people as colored while they would be counted in the people of color format.

I remember hearing that a person could be classed as Black in the US, White in Brazil, and Colored (a group distinct from black and white) in south africa. So which is true?
 

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