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Merged US Soldiers Stop Terrorist Attack In Belgium /Bad guy with guns stopped by good guys

casebro said:
Say what you want about me, but I have run towards the fire, saved a couple lives, faced armed men. I DO get involved in a physical way.

How many people died because the sheeple on the airplanes were afraid of getting cut by box cutters? Except for the one bunch of brave Americans on flight 94(?).

How many times have we heard about bystanders watching a beating, until one person jumps in? There's lots of sheeple in the world. And sometimes a few who get the ball Rolling.

Funny isn't it that since Kuwait I & II, these acts don't happen in America. Where there are more box cutters and AKs available then in all of the European Union. Maybe because the non-sheeple rate is higher too?
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applecorped said:
Your use of sheeple is misplaced and shameful
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Indeed.

Plane hijackings were not unknown before September 11th. They often ended with some loss of life, but most hostages surviving. This included several high-profile hijackings by Islamic terrorists. Given this experience, it was perfectly rational to sit tight and do nothing. Given what we know now, it wouldn't be. As an aside, I think that this additional information by the flying public means that as far as the risk of hijacking of large planes, it would probably be safer for airlines to have proper cutlery and crockery *now*.

Geography also has a lot to play in what sort of terrorism occurs, and I am unclear whether there are fewer terrorist attacks in Western Europe than in the US.
 
So fanatical Islamic terrorists who are willing to be killed aren't attacking in America because they are scared but 'Domestic' terrorists are quite willing to attack and be killed? This somehow is because Europeans are some kind of cowardly Sheeple because they don't have guns or something?
 
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casebro said:
How many people died because the sheeple on the airplanes were afraid of getting cut by box cutters? Except for the one bunch of brave Americans on flight 94 ...

Funny isn't it that since Kuwait I & II, these acts don't happen in America. Where there are more box cutters and AKs available then in all of the European Union. Maybe because the non-sheeple rate is higher too?
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But according to reports

US airman Spencer Stone, who on board the train during the attack, spotted the 26-year-old Moroccan acting suspiciously and heard him trying to load his weapon in the toilet. He was travelling with Oregon National Guard member Alek Skarlatos, 22, who was on leave and travelling through Europe at the time after returning from a tour in Afghanistan.
With the help of their friend Anthony Sadler, from Pittsburg, California, and fellow passenger British IT consultant Chris Norman, they managed to wrestle the attacker to the ground, stopping what could have been a deadly terrorist attack.​
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3206426/
 
Craig B said:
But according to reports

US airman Spencer Stone, who on board the train during the attack, spotted the 26-year-old Moroccan acting suspiciously and heard him trying to load his weapon in the toilet. He was travelling with Oregon National Guard member Alek Skarlatos, 22, who was on leave and travelling through Europe at the time after returning from a tour in Afghanistan.
With the help of their friend Anthony Sadler, from Pittsburg, California, and fellow passenger British IT consultant Chris Norman, they managed to wrestle the attacker to the ground, stopping what could have been a deadly terrorist attack.​
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3206426/
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The BBC article I linked to is quite good, has three of these talking and quotes the other:

jimbob said:
Link to an interview with three of them - not Spencer Stone, but praising him and quoting him and the others
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casebro said:
Say what you want about me, but I have run towards the fire, saved a couple lives, faced armed men. I DO get involved in a physical way.

How many people died because the sheeple on the airplanes were afraid of getting cut by box cutters? Except for the one bunch of brave Americans on flight 94(?).

How many times have we heard about bystanders watching a beating, until one person jumps in? There's lots of sheeple in the world. And sometimes a few who get the ball Rolling.

Funny isn't it that since Kuwait I & II, these acts don't happen in America. Where there are more box cutters and AKs available then in all of the European Union. Maybe because the non-sheeple rate is higher too?
Click to expand...

There's a collective action problem, especially when there's more than one terrorist. Any passenger who wants to fight back against multiple terrorists would know that unless his fellow passengers joined in immediately, then he will almost certainly die, perhaps painfully.

There were two factors that I think made this happen: (1) it appeared there was only one terrorist, so that just one determined passenger stood a good chance of launching a successful counterattack, even if other passengers hesitated for several seconds; and (2) these guys were friends and knew they could rely on each other.

In fact, what I think was key to the whole situation was one guy - Alek Skarlatos - telling one of the other guys - Spencer Stone - to "go!" There is a certain reinforcement there that is crucial. Not only does it give Stone the confidence that others saw the threat as he did (i.e. as a real criminal threat and not a misunderstanding), but it also gives him the confidence that his buddies would back him up.

It was heroic for all involved, certainly, but it is much more difficult to act without having like-minded friends by your side. This is why developing camaraderie among soldiers is so important in the military. So I think it's unfair to blame passengers traveling alone (or even worse, with their families) for reacting passively.
 
sunmaster14 said:
There's a collective action problem, especially when there's more than one terrorist. Any passenger who wants to fight back against multiple terrorists would know that unless his fellow passengers joined in immediately, then he will almost certainly die, perhaps painfully.

There were two factors that I think made this happen: (1) it appeared there was only one terrorist, so that just one determined passenger stood a good chance of launching a successful counterattack, even if other passengers hesitated for several seconds; and (2) these guys were friends and knew they could rely on each other.

In fact, what I think was key to the whole situation was one guy - Alek Skarlatos - telling one of the other guys - Spencer Stone - to "go!" There is a certain reinforcement there that is crucial. Not only does it give Stone the confidence that others saw the threat as he did (i.e. as a real criminal threat and not a misunderstanding), but it also gives him the confidence that his buddies would back him up.

It was heroic for all involved, certainly, but it is much more difficult to act without having like-minded friends by your side. This is why developing camaraderie among soldiers is so important in the military. So I think it's unfair to blame passengers traveling alone (or even worse, with their families) for reacting passively.
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Another factor is that it's difficult in the heat of the moment for a non-combat trained person to understand what is happening in an unexpected, violent situation. It seems very clear in hindsight to us, sitting in our armchairs, but I bet in the heat of the moment it would be very difficult to fully comprehend what was going on and what needed to be reacted to, if anything.

Then there's the fact that none of us know for sure how we'd react. I'd hope I'd be out of my seat rushing the terrorist, but in reality I have no idea. As I said, I might freeze up and do nothing. I've known guys - proper hard-men, not just beer fighters - bottle it from confrontations that they could have mastered with one hand behind their back because of the adrenaline dump that causes preservation instinct to take over. Anybody who steps forward in a situation like this is acting heroically IMO.
 
baron said:
Another factor is that it's difficult in the heat of the moment for a non-combat trained person to understand what is happening in an unexpected, violent situation. It seems very clear in hindsight to us, sitting in our armchairs, but I bet in the heat of the moment it would be very difficult to fully comprehend what was going on and what needed to be reacted to, if anything.
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You hear the tweee of a bullet coming very close to your head.

Then you hear the shot. Zero chance of even a futile dodge. (And you do try when you can, even it's not logical.)

What happens next gives you a baseline of how you react in emergencies. (Tornadoes, fires, flash floods, they work too.)

Then there's the fact that none of us know for sure how we'd react. I'd hope I'd be out of my seat rushing the terrorist, but in reality I have no idea. As I said, I might freeze up and do nothing. I've known guys - proper hard-men, not just beer fighters - bottle it from confrontations that they could have mastered with one hand behind their back because of the adrenaline dump that causes preservation instinct to take over. Anybody who steps forward in a situation like this is acting heroically IMO.
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Yep, full props to the Brit who got off his ass and went in up to the elbows in that hair ball.
 
Gawdzilla Sama said:
You hear the tweee of a bullet coming very close to your head.

Then you hear the shot. Zero chance of even a futile dodge. (And you do try when you can, even it's not logical.)

What happens next gives you a baseline of how you react in emergencies. (Tornadoes, fires, flash floods, they work too.)


Yep, full props to the Brit who got off his ass and went in up to the elbows in that hair ball.
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His nationality is less important than his activity. Or at least it is unless one is talking to casebro, who states this:

Funny isn't it that since Kuwait I & II, these acts don't happen in America. Where there are more box cutters and AKs available then in all of the European Union. Maybe because the non-sheeple rate is higher too?​
 
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Craig B said:
His nationality is less important than his activity. Or at least it is unless one is taking to casebro, who states this:

Funny isn't it that since Kuwait I & II, these acts don't happen in America. Where there are more box cutters and AKs available then in all of the European Union. Maybe because the non-sheeple rate is higher too?​
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Yeah. I've known some deadly non-USians. :boxedin:
 
jimbob said:
A novel defence.

I am quite intrigued as to what he will come up with to explain the rest of the features of the case, starting with firing the weapon on the train. After all, who hasn't picked up automatic or semi-automatic rifles when walking in the park?
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This is all to the good. Can you imagine the problems this must be causing for the propagandists in extremist Muslim societies?

This great warrior had merely found the weapon in a refuse bin, and was just having an innocent look at it in the lavatory when an unarmed bunch of imperialist militarists burst in and trussed him up.

Saladin this is not.
 
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Hmmm, an Islamist who just happens to find firearms in a park and tasks them on a train with the intention of robbing the passengers is now going to be confused with an Islamist who took firearms on a train with the intention of earning 72 virgins but gets their butt kicked and decides to cop a tall tail to avoid having any Islamist who takes firearms on a train with the intention of robbing the passengers confused with an Islamist who takes firearms on a train with the intention of earning 72 virgins.
 
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