• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

Status
Not open for further replies.
This is the "equality of arms" citation in Podeschi v. San Marino (above post).

Question: Did AK & RS have the requisite equality of arms in their remand hearings, considering that apparently exculpatory information, including DNA profile evidence showing that Guede, and neither Sollecito nor Lumumba, was Kercher's rapist, was suppressed?

From NIKOLOVA v. BULGARIA 31195/96 25/03/1999 [GC]

58. The Court recalls that arrested or detained persons are entitled to a review bearing upon the procedural and substantive conditions which are essential for the “lawfulness”, in the sense of the Convention, of their deprivation of liberty. This means that the competent court has to examine “not only compliance with the procedural requirements set out in [domestic law] but also the reasonableness of the suspicion grounding the arrest and the legitimacy of the purpose pursued by the arrest and the ensuing detention” (see the Brogan and Others v. the United Kingdom judgment of 29 November 1988, Series A no. 145-B, pp. 34-35, § 65).

A court examining an appeal against detention must provide guarantees of a judicial procedure. The proceedings must be adversarial and must always ensure “equality of arms” between the parties, the prosecutor and the detained person (see the Sanchez-Reisse v. Switzerland judgment of 21 October 1986, Series A no. 107, p. 19, § 51; the Toth v. Austria judgment of 12 December 1991, Series A no. 224, p. 23, § 84; and the Kampanis v. Greece judgment of 13 July 1995, Series A no. 318-B, p. 45, § 47). Equality of arms is not ensured if counsel is denied access to those documents in the investigation file which are essential in order effectively to challenge the lawfulness of his client’s detention (see the Lamy v. Belgium judgment of 30 March 1989, Series A no. 151, pp. 16-17, § 29). In the case of a person whose detention falls within the ambit of Article 5 § 1 (c), a hearing is required (see the Assenov and Others judgment cited above, p. 3302, § 162).

I wonder if the reason the motivation report is taking a long time to prepare is because the judges and/or their law clerks are trying to address all legal issues - the sorts of issues referred to above - that occurred in the case either to identify and excoriate the police and prosecution handling of it, followed by the compliant and weak judges who ruled on matters of continued detention, evidence, rights, etc., and their subsequent verdicts.
 
Last edited:
I wonder if the reason the motivation report is taking a long time to prepare is because the judges and/or their law clerks are trying to address all legal issues that occurred in the case - either to identify and excoriate the police and prosecution handling of it, followed by the compliant and weak judges who ruled on matters of continued detention, evidence, rights, etc., and their subsequent verdicts.

Could be.

It also might be because of backlog, the August holiday, and that there's no need to be aware of time limits. No pressing need because of remand to lower court.
 
I wonder if the reason the motivation report is taking a long time to prepare is because the judges and/or their law clerks are trying to address all legal issues - the sorts of issues referred to above - that occurred in the case either to identify and excoriate the police and prosecution handling of it, followed by the compliant and weak judges who ruled on matters of continued detention, evidence, rights, etc., and their subsequent verdicts.

The motivation report has not been released because the court is backlogged. Reports are written in order and they are simply overwhelmed with work.
 
The motivation report has not been released because the court is backlogged. Reports are written in order and they are simply overwhelmed with work.

You know this for a fact Bruce? That all motivations are taking far longer than the standard 90 dsys?
 
You know this for a fact Bruce? That all motivations are taking far longer than the standard 90 dsys?

I only know that sources close to the case have relayed the message that there is no need for concern because the court is simply backlogged. I have no idea if the courts sometimes push out smaller cases ahead of others because they may have far less detailed reports. We have been told that the cases are handled in order.
 
I only know that sources close to the case have relayed the message that there is no need for concern because the court is simply backlogged. I have no idea if the courts sometimes push out smaller cases ahead of others because they may have far less detailed reports. We have been told that the cases are handled in order.

"In order" according to whom? Numeric, algebraic, satanic, masonic, mafioso, dietrological, xenophobic?

Just because it sounds like a clear standard, doesn't fill me with confidence it will make any sense at all, outside of Italy.

And presumably, "in order" is separate for each section of cassation, right?

Not that it makes any difference. It will come when its comes I suppose. As they say in Jamaica, 'it will arrive just right when its here'.
 
To be clear, I don't believe there ever was any electronic connection between Amanda and Rudi. My question is did the PLE ever make that claim? I'm not talking about an unnamed source.

To me if a reporter says the police claim she had cell calls with Rudi that it should be true or at a minimum stated that this a leak or from unnamed sources.


I've never read that they claimed that Grinder. Not anywhere.


I have. Shortly after the murder the police/prosecution had leaked to the press that Amanda had called Guede twice after the murder, as reported in the below UK article (other UK rags likewise reported these phone calls between Amanda & Guede).

Before Guede came into the picture, in other articles the police had claimed that Lumumba’s cell-phone had pinged off of a tower by the cottage around the time of the murder, which they claimed proved Lumumba wasn’t at work, as he had claimed. The police had leaked many LIES to the media.

Note how this story also claimed that a few of Amanda’s fingerprints were found in Meredith’s bedroom (another LIE):

Police identify fourth suspect in Kercher murder

BY PETER POPHAM IN ROME
TUESDAY 20 NOVEMBER 2007

Police have confirmed the name of the fourth suspect they are seeking in connection with the murder of Meredith Kercher as Rudy Hermann Guede, 21. He has a police record for possession of drugs and involvement in a knifing incident in Perugia some years ago.

The international arrest warrant that police have issued for Mr Guede, originally from Ivory Coast, turns the case of the English student's murder upside down and throws into doubt detectives' claims that they had already cracked the case with the arrests of Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito and Patrick Lumumba.

It also subverts the theory advanced by the preliminary judge in the case that Kercher, 21, was murdered at the climax of a game of extreme sex in which she did not want to participate. She may have been killed, for reasons as yet unknown, while fully dressed then undressed afterwards to make the crime look like rape and murder.

Mr Guede's fingerprints were found on a blood-soaked pillow in the room where Kercher died, and his DNA on faeces in the flat's lavatory. No prints of Mr Sollecito or Mr Lumumba and only scant ones of Ms Knox were found in the room where the killing occurred. If the new theory is sustained, Mr Guede may have acted alone, although aided after the killing by Ms Knox, who may have covered up for him since.

Italian media reported that Mr Guede, who was fostered by a wealthy family in Perugia, had broken away from them and become a small-time drug dealer, providing students with cannabis. Police were able to match his fingerprints and DNA at the crime scene to those from an incident when Mr Guede was stabbed in a fight over drugs.

Investigators say Mr Guede left Perugia on the morning after the murder and went to Milan, where he was stopped by police but not detained. Detectives locked on to his mobile phone signal in Milan as recently as this weekend, but it then went dead. Amanda Knox made at least two calls to his number, one of them at 11am on 2 November, around the time police discovered Kercher's body.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-fourth-suspect-in-kercher-murder-758731.html


If this story about Guede being in a knife fight over drugs is true, then it’s interesting how such tales about Guede's previous involvement with knives, as well as Guede’s police record, were all later downplayed by the prosecution, likely to make it more believable that Guede was merely an unwitting accomplice of the evil Amanda Devil-witch.
 
If this story about Guede being in a knife fight over drugs is true, then it’s interesting how such tales about Guede's previous involvement with knives, as well as Guede’s police record, were all later downplayed by the prosecution, likely to make it more believable that Guede was merely an unwitting accomplice of the evil Amanda Devil-witch.

I would really, really, discount anything published in the media, particularly the UK media, in the first few months after the murder. So much of it turned out to be wrong, in good part because they were publishing a combination of rumors and misinformation from PLE leaks. It is the equivalent of schoolyard gossip, and most of it was later proven incorrect.
 
"In order" according to whom? Numeric, algebraic, satanic, masonic, mafioso, dietrological, xenophobic?

Just because it sounds like a clear standard, doesn't fill me with confidence it will make any sense at all, outside of Italy.

And presumably, "in order" is separate for each section of cassation, right?

Not that it makes any difference. It will come when its comes I suppose. As they say in Jamaica, 'it will arrive just right when its here'.

Yes, I do not pretend to know how they handle the motivation reports in Italy. All I know is that I was told they are backlogged and it's not unusual.
 
Last edited:
I would really, really, discount anything published in the media, particularly the UK media, in the first few months after the murder. So much of it turned out to be wrong, in good part because they were publishing a combination of rumors and misinformation from PLE leaks. It is the equivalent of schoolyard gossip, and most of it was later proven incorrect.


I agree, the Italian and UK media coverage was atrocious. It also hurt Amanda & Raffaele that none of those LIES were ever retracted, which left many people in Italy and the rest of the world still believing all those obvious lies.

As for identifying Guede as a suspect, it also never made any sense how the police had claimed they had identified Guede from his bloody palm print found on Meredith's pillow by matching that palm-print to Guede's immigration paperwork?

Maybe, the police did have more than Guede's immigration paperwork on file?
 
I agree, the Italian and UK media coverage was atrocious. It also hurt Amanda & Raffaele that none of those LIES were ever retracted, which left many people in Italy and the rest of the world still believing all those obvious lies.

As for identifying Guede as a suspect, it also never made any sense how the police had claimed they had identified Guede from his bloody palm print found on Meredith's pillow by matching that palm-print to Guede's immigration paperwork?

Maybe, the police did have more than Guede's immigration paperwork on file?

My impression is that the police began interviewing the circle of friends for the boys from downstairs, after Stefan Bonassi mentioned on 11/3 that a guest (Rudy) had fallen asleep on a toilet and left an unflushed turd therein.

Based on the similarity to the unflushed turd upstairs, they began interviewing the circle of friends, which led them eventually to Rudy by name. They then checked Rudy's immigration record for his palm print, and sent it to Rome for an expert's view, and were able to match it to the bloody palm print from the crime scene.

That's what I recall, others may know more.
 
I agree, the Italian and UK media coverage was atrocious. It also hurt Amanda & Raffaele that none of those LIES were ever retracted, which left many people in Italy and the rest of the world still believing all those obvious lies.

As for identifying Guede as a suspect, it also never made any sense how the police had claimed they had identified Guede from his bloody palm print found on Meredith's pillow by matching that palm-print to Guede's immigration paperwork?

Maybe, the police did have more than Guede's immigration paperwork on file?



Who goes to get an ID Card and has to leave a palm print on file?
Why not just fingerprints?
Hmmmm...


Hiya Ken Dine,
I have not read these yet,
but a few years back,
RoseMontague, Metho's, Dan O. and others
really dug into the Rudy Guede palm print issue.
I've never seen this discussion.

Have a look here on The ISF:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163730&page=10
The photo's of The Palm Print that RoseMontague posted are intriguing.


Methos even linked 2 pdf's
containing Court testimony on this,
it looks to be an interesting read!

Open it or download + save and have a read.
I surely will too, later...
RW


1) - http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8500548&postcount=555

2) - http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8500551&postcount=556
 
Last edited:
I would really, really, discount anything published in the media, particularly the UK media, in the first few months after the murder. So much of it turned out to be wrong, in good part because they were publishing a combination of rumors and misinformation from PLE leaks. It is the equivalent of schoolyard gossip, and most of it was later proven incorrect.

Agreed. I was asking for a credible source that quoted a PLE source or at least something more than unnamed source(s).

It is hysterical to me that the boys' testimony, Amanda's own book and Rudi all saying he had met Amanda is not acceptable but some off-the-wall tab story is even considered.
 
I have. Shortly after the murder the police/prosecution had leaked to the press that Amanda had called Guede twice after the murder, as reported in the below UK article (other UK rags likewise reported these phone calls between Amanda & Guede).

Before Guede came into the picture, in other articles the police had claimed that Lumumba’s cell-phone had pinged off of a tower by the cottage around the time of the murder, which they claimed proved Lumumba wasn’t at work, as he had claimed. The police had leaked many LIES to the media.

Note how this story also claimed that a few of Amanda’s fingerprints were found in Meredith’s bedroom (another LIE):

If this story about Guede being in a knife fight over drugs is true, then it’s interesting how such tales about Guede's previous involvement with knives, as well as Guede’s police record, were all later downplayed by the prosecution, likely to make it more believable that Guede was merely an unwitting accomplice of the evil Amanda Devil-witch.

Why wouldn't you believe they found her prints if you believe he was in a knife fight? Why do you believe whatever helps your argument from a story but reject everything that hurts your POV.

How could all these "facts" about Rudi not come out again in 8 years of this?

No one came forward to the press with the knifing story? His police record was expunged and no one noticed?

Do you have a credible source that the police made the claims about the phone calls? Credible.
 
Last edited:
Who goes to get an ID Card and has to leave a palm print on file?
Why not just fingerprints?
Hmmmm...


Hiya Ken Dine,
I have not read these yet,
but a few years back,
RoseMontague, Metho's, Dan O. and others
really dug into the Rudy Guede palm print issue.
I've never seen this discussion.

Have a look here on The ISF:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163730&page=10
The photo's of The Palm Print that RoseMontague posted are intriguing.


Methos even linked 2 pdf's
containing Court testimony on this,
it looks to be an interesting read!

Open it or download + save and have a read.
I surely will too, later...
RW


1) - http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8500548&postcount=555

2) - http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8500551&postcount=556

I'd like to add this one ;)
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/2007-Nov-16-Scientific-police-report-fingerprints-Guede.pdf
 
My impression is that the police began interviewing the circle of friends for the boys from downstairs, after Stefan Bonassi mentioned on 11/3 that a guest (Rudy) had fallen asleep on a toilet and left an unflushed turd therein.

Based on the similarity to the unflushed turd upstairs, they began interviewing the circle of friends, which led them eventually to Rudy by name. They then checked Rudy's immigration record for his palm print, and sent it to Rome for an expert's view, and were able to match it to the bloody palm print from the crime scene.

That's what I recall, others may know more.


I agree, that likely it was good old fashioned police work which eventually had identified Guede as their suspect.

After all, based upon finding African hairs in Meredith's bedroom, there weren't that many sub-Saharan African men in Perugia, so once DNA had cleared Lumumba, that put the focus onto the African guy (Guede) who had visited the boys downstairs on an occasion or two.

I doubt if Guede's immigration paperwork had his palm-print. Fingerprints, yes, but not likely a palm-print, and I doubt if the bloody palm-print left on Meredith's pillow was very clear.

The Italians likely didn't have a CODIS type of DNA database back in 2007.

Since the boys downstairs obviously didn't know Guede's actual name, only that he often played basketball at the nearby court, that could have been their main lead.

The police may have found several photographs of African immigrants in their immigration database, and perhaps they had a picture of Guede in there? Or, perhaps they had a clear picture of Guede's face taken the night of the murder on the garage's CCTV system?

With pictures of possible African suspects in hand, the police could have then gone to the basketball courts and found someone there who knew Guede's name? Even without suspect pictures, the police could have merely asked people at the court if they knew an African guy who played there, and got lucky?

If Guede did have a police record as that UK article had reported, then that may have helped. Even if Guede didn't have an actual police record, it appears that many police officers were aware of Guede. Once it became clear they were looking for an African suspect, perhaps an officer who had dealt with Guede in the past mentioned Guede to the investigators?

One way or the other, once they had Guede's name, they went to Guede's apartment and used his toothbrush to obtain his DNA sample, and BINGO, they had their match.

While it's all conjecture how they eventually found out Guede's actual name, I seriously doubt if Guede's palm-print was on file in his immigration papers.

BTW - as for using DNA to clear Lumumba (and later they used to match with Guede), what DNA sample found in Meredith's room were they using for that? Touch DNA on Meredith's bra or purse?

Touch DNA is generally LCN-DNA, and back in 2007 Stefanoni's lab didn't even seem to have the right equipment necessary for doing that.

Likely, the perp's DNA they found at the crime scene was either from the semen sample, or the vaginal swab, or from some of the blood that had surely dripped from Guede's cut fingers.

I.e., in Meredith's bedroom they obviously had found an ample sample of the perp's DNA that normal DNA testing could be used to identify as belonging to Guede (and to exclude Raffaele and Lumumba).
 
Could give us an executive summary of the finding you and the others came up with?

From memory, back then the sentiment was:
- it's difficult if not impossible to get a print from a surface like the pillowcase. Well, now that we have the pictures it seems we were wrong on that point.
- the police knew who to look for because they just matched the palmprint to Guede's "file". Seems to be true, the report I linked above is dated Nov 16th, 2007...
 
I only know that sources close to the case have relayed the message that there is no need for concern because the court is simply backlogged. I have no idea if the courts sometimes push out smaller cases ahead of others because they may have far less detailed reports. We have been told that the cases are handled in order.

Thank you. I had accepted that we probably wouldn't see it in the summer because of the long summer holiday that the Europeans are known for. Seems to me that at least one of Amanda's trials was interrupted for the summer Holiday.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom