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Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Maybe. Or maybe a few people chatting about a case for a few minutes is really not such a big deal. I support Bruce's idea that people should support other cases, but a handful of people discussing the case here is hardly an impediment to that, IMO.

Of course, there is no harm in the circular discussion going on here. It can continue until the end of time without harming anyone. I personally think it's ridiculous. I know I have been a bit sarcastic about it. :)

I personally think it's ridiculous to argue with a person like Vixen who does nothing more than post up every outdated lie she can think of just to keep people riled up. She owns this forum and most people left in it and she loves it.

I just refuse to continue to debate with dishonest people about this case. I did that for years and now it's over. I have read this forum over the years and I cannot imagine the success that could be achieved if all of this energy was directed at a current problem instead of one that has already concluded.

No one needs to feel bad that I came here to see if I could spark new conversation. I didn't come in with any expectations. There is a smart group here. Many issues in this case have been thoroughly analyzed over the years. This group would do a great job of analyzing other cases.
 
Maybe. Or maybe a few people chatting about a case for a few minutes is really not such a big deal. I support Bruce's idea that people should support other cases, but a handful of people discussing the case here is hardly an impediment to that, IMO.

One of our brightest posters, albeit currently suspended, has continued to post here until suspended AND work on other cases. I have paid attention to the Tapp case and greatly admire the work of Judge Heavey on it. There is no sex appeal in that case.

The work the Judge and others have done there has little to do with an online presence but rather good old fashioned reviewing of the evidence and showing LE that they made a mistake. The only media involved, is the local media in Idaho.

Btw, Heavey has an organization he works through - http://judgesforjustice.org/ I would suggest it as a great place to do the good work.
 
Of course, there is no harm in the circular discussion going on here. It can continue until the end of time without harming anyone. I personally think it's ridiculous. I know I have been a bit sarcastic about it.

I personally think it's ridiculous to argue with a person like Vixen who does nothing more than post up every outdated lie she can think of just to keep people riled up. She owns this forum and most people left in it and she loves it.

I just refuse to continue to debate with dishonest people about this case. I did that for years and now it's over. I have read this forum over the years and I cannot imagine the success that could be achieved if all of this energy was directed at a current problem instead of one that has already concluded.

No one needs to feel bad that I came here to see if I could spark new conversation. I didn't come in with any expectations. There is a smart group here. Many issues in this case have been thoroughly analyzed over the years. This group would do a great job of analyzing other cases.

It's true there has been a lot of energy over the years focused on silly arguments with dishonest people. People who no one knows or cares who they are. Now that the case is over, that hasn't changed, but the overall volume of discussion has just decreased.

Now, if we can figure out how to channel all of the energy being used to discuss Donald Trump and channel it elsewhere ... :D
 
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One of our brightest posters, albeit currently suspended, has continued to post here until suspended AND work on other cases. I have paid attention to the Tapp case and greatly admire the work of Judge Heavey on it. There is no sex appeal in that case.

The work the Judge and others have done there has little to do with an online presence but rather good old fashioned reviewing of the evidence and showing LE that they made a mistake. The only media involved, is the local media in Idaho.

Btw, Heavey has an organization he works through - http://judgesforjustice.org/ I would suggest it as a great place to do the good work.

Amen, brother. Preach it! The promise of doing little good in these forums is still no excuse for silence.

And I agree about the bit of one of the brightest posters here. Seriously, too good for the place. Suffers fools poorly. I have the scars.
 
One of our brightest posters, albeit currently suspended, has continued to post here until suspended AND work on other cases. I have paid attention to the Tapp case and greatly admire the work of Judge Heavey on it. There is no sex appeal in that case.

The work the Judge and others have done there has little to do with an online presence but rather good old fashioned reviewing of the evidence and showing LE that they made a mistake. The only media involved, is the local media in Idaho.

Btw, Heavey has an organization he works through - http://judgesforjustice.org/ I would suggest it as a great place to do the good work.

This is a great suggestion. I recently joined the team at Judges for Justice. Judge Heavey has found his calling. Steve Moore has done great work on the Tapp case. IA and Judges for Justice have many of the same goals. Sharing resources will be a benefit to both groups.

The positive media coverage in Idaho has been a key development in the Tapp case. The media pressure due to the outstanding research from Judge Heavey opened the door for the case to be reviewed.
 
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It's true there has been a lot of energy over the years focused on silly arguments with dishonest people. People who no one knows or cares who they are. Now that the case is over, that hasn't changed, but the overall volume of discussion has just decreased.

Now, if we can figure out how to channel all of the energy being used to discuss Donald Trump and channel it elsewhere ... :D

If we could channel that energy, it would be really big. It would be fantastic. It would be huge. It would be really really Huge!
 
For those interested in the ECHR, there is a communicated case, PODESCHI v. SAN MARINO 66357/14 communicated 10/07/2015, with a few parallels to the AKRS case. I point it out partly to show the generality of the questions ECHR asks when it communicates a case to the respondent country.

Podeschi is a politician who was active in San Marino. He was accused, with others, of money laundering and conspiracy by an investigating judge 23 June 2014, and arrested and detained in jail that day. He was allowed to consult with his attorney 25 June 2014 at 3 pm and appear before the investigating judge at 4 pm. A significant part of the case file was was classified and Podeschi and his lawyer were not allowed to review that part either before or after the June 25 hearing. Podeschi was remanded to detention in prison and for at least part of this detention he was kept in isolation without the usually allowed activities or hygenic facilities, allegedly without the legal authorization required by San Marino law. The remand detention was continued by subsequent decisions.

Here is the "bottom line" of the communication (note the reference to "equality of arms" and the information denied to the applicant in question 3):

COMPLAINTS

The applicant {Podeschi} complains under Article 3 about the conditions of his detention. Invoking Article 5 § 3 he also complains that he remained detained for an unlimited duration of time, given that the law did not provide for a time-limit, and that pending his detention, proceedings were taking an unreasonably long time, during which he had not been released. He further complains under Article 5 § 4 that he had repeatedly not had access to the relevant documentation to challenge his detention.

QUESTIONS TO THE PARTIES

1. Did the conditions of the detention facility amount (alone or in combination with other conditions) to inhuman and degrading treatment, contrary to Article 3 of the Convention?

2. Was the length of the applicant’s pre-trial detention in breach of the “reasonable time” requirement of Article 5 § 3 of the Convention? Did the grounds given by the judicial authorities continue to justify the deprivation of liberty? Were such grounds “relevant” and “sufficient”, have the competent national authorities displayed “special diligence” in the conduct of the proceedings (see Ilijkov v. Bulgaria, no. 33977/96, § 77, 26 July 2001; I.A. v. France, 23 September 1998, Reports 1998‑VII, § 102; and Contrada v. Italy, 24 August 1998, Reports 1998-V, § 54)? The parties should submit any further domestic decisions concerning the applicant’s detention which were delivered in 2015.

3. Was the procedure by which the applicant sought to challenge the lawfulness of his pre-trial detention in conformity with Article 5 § 4 of the Convention? In particular, was the principle of “equality of arms” (see Nikolova v. Bulgaria [GC], no. 31195/96, § 58, ECHR 1999‑II) respected, in the light of the fact that, although the applicant repeatedly requested access to the evidence underlying the suspicion against him and his continued detention, he was not allowed to acquaint himself with the entirety of the relevant material of the investigation? Did the information to which the applicant was denied access have any bearing on the lawfulness of his detention?
 
To be clear, I don't believe there ever was any electronic connection between Amanda and Rudi. My question is did the PLE ever make that claim? I'm not talking about an unnamed source.

To me if a reporter says the police claim she had cell calls with Rudi that it should be true or at a minimum stated that this a leak or from unnamed sources.

I've never read that they claimed that Grinder. Not anywhere.
 
This is the "equality of arms" citation in Podeschi v. San Marino (above post).

Question: Did AK & RS have the requisite equality of arms in their remand hearings, considering that apparently exculpatory information, including DNA profile evidence showing that Guede, and neither Sollecito nor Lumumba, was Kercher's rapist, was suppressed?

From NIKOLOVA v. BULGARIA 31195/96 25/03/1999 [GC]

58. The Court recalls that arrested or detained persons are entitled to a review bearing upon the procedural and substantive conditions which are essential for the “lawfulness”, in the sense of the Convention, of their deprivation of liberty. This means that the competent court has to examine “not only compliance with the procedural requirements set out in [domestic law] but also the reasonableness of the suspicion grounding the arrest and the legitimacy of the purpose pursued by the arrest and the ensuing detention” (see the Brogan and Others v. the United Kingdom judgment of 29 November 1988, Series A no. 145-B, pp. 34-35, § 65).

A court examining an appeal against detention must provide guarantees of a judicial procedure. The proceedings must be adversarial and must always ensure “equality of arms” between the parties, the prosecutor and the detained person (see the Sanchez-Reisse v. Switzerland judgment of 21 October 1986, Series A no. 107, p. 19, § 51; the Toth v. Austria judgment of 12 December 1991, Series A no. 224, p. 23, § 84; and the Kampanis v. Greece judgment of 13 July 1995, Series A no. 318-B, p. 45, § 47). Equality of arms is not ensured if counsel is denied access to those documents in the investigation file which are essential in order effectively to challenge the lawfulness of his client’s detention (see the Lamy v. Belgium judgment of 30 March 1989, Series A no. 151, pp. 16-17, § 29). In the case of a person whose detention falls within the ambit of Article 5 § 1 (c), a hearing is required (see the Assenov and Others judgment cited above, p. 3302, § 162).
 
This is a great suggestion. I recently joined the team at Judges for Justice. Judge Heavey has found his calling. Steve Moore has done great work on the Tapp case. IA and Judges for Justice have many of the same goals. Sharing resources will be a benefit to both groups.

The positive media coverage in Idaho has been a key development in the Tapp case. The media pressure due to the outstanding research from Judge Heavey opened the door for the case to be reviewed.

Bruce, This is my first post ever on this forum. I have also recently joined Judge Heavey and Judges for Justice. I agree.
 
As a second post ever; I am a Ph.D. Molecular Biologist with many years of experience in DNA technology. I am somewhat familiar with the details of the Meredith Kercher case. In science it is fundamentally essential that one has data in order to evaluate an issue, let alone draw meaningful conclusions. It is thus significant that in this case the prosecution has suppressed the release of essentially all of the fundamental data required to evaluate their DNA analyses. From a logical, scientific perspective, this lack of supporting data, renders the prosecution's laboratory evidence scientifically meaningless. It is simply not logically possible to draw a conclusion from an assertion. A scientist requires reproducible data.
 
As a second post ever; I am a Ph.D. Molecular Biologist with many years of experience in DNA technology. I am somewhat familiar with the details of the Meredith Kercher case. In science it is fundamentally essential that one has data in order to evaluate an issue, let alone draw meaningful conclusions. It is thus significant that in this case the prosecution has suppressed the release of essentially all of the fundamental data required to evaluate their DNA analyses. From a logical, scientific perspective, this lack of supporting data, renders the prosecution's laboratory evidence scientifically meaningless. It is simply not logically possible to draw a conclusion from an assertion. A scientist requires reproducible data.
Tom welcome and I always thought that there were two pathways in the Knox case.
1. She could not have been there so whatever they found had alternative explanations.
2. If she could have been there let us have no doubt proof exists.

Mentioning the group you have joined brings me full circle to the New Zealand case that mirrors the above pathways.
Mark Lundy.
This one is subject to appeal and well known to people here. It has been solved but Innocent Mark languishes in jail. DNA and rna and forensic details is in the public domain. If you have time take a look.
 
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With all due respect, you have not connected any of those dots. You also have a somewhat strange definition of "hearsay". We're all in that boat, dude!

I was referring to what was happening in the media, including radio and TV, and online the first two years. I believe you and others that weigh in on how different things said during that period only know about those parts that aren't archived through hearsay.

Where this went of the rails, and why it may not be of interest, really, to parse to the nth-degree "the defence case", is that.....

By Italian law, the defence is not even entitled to view the evidence until the formal charge is laid, which in this case was almost a year after their arrest. So why is it even of interest to parse with fine tooth comb, "the defence case"?

While it is clear that they didn't ever get some data are you sure that Italian law prevented them from getting any of the evidence" Perhaps Numbers will research this issue, as the year period should be illegal. AFAIK people here must be charged within 72 hours of arrest. To be held one year without charges should be against the ECHR rules. It should void our treaty with Italy.

Amen, brother. Preach it! The promise of doing little good in these forums is still no excuse for silence.

And I agree about the bit of one of the brightest posters here. Seriously, too good for the place. Suffers fools poorly. I have the scars.

I'm shocked that so many here had not heard of J4J before I provided the link.
 
Bruce, This is my first post ever on this forum. I have also recently joined Judge Heavey and Judges for Justice. I agree.

As a second post ever; I am a Ph.D. Molecular Biologist with many years of experience in DNA technology. I am somewhat familiar with the details of the Meredith Kercher case. In science it is fundamentally essential that one has data in order to evaluate an issue, let alone draw meaningful conclusions. It is thus significant that in this case the prosecution has suppressed the release of essentially all of the fundamental data required to evaluate their DNA analyses. From a logical, scientific perspective, this lack of supporting data, renders the prosecution's laboratory evidence scientifically meaningless. It is simply not logically possible to draw a conclusion from an assertion. A scientist requires reproducible data.

Tom,

Welcome to the ISF.

As I see the AK-RS case, for observers the outstanding issues relate to understanding the role of the Italian authorities in creating this miscarriage of justice, evaluating the anticipated Marasca CSC panel motivation report, and understanding what remedial actions the ECHR or Italian authorities may take.

One issue of interest to me is the legitimacy of the arrests and detention of Knox, Sollecito, and Lumumba starting on Nov. 6, 2007, when the arrest warrant was based on the false information coerced from Knox in her interrogation without a lawyer, and the authorities did not reveal in the Nov. 8 arrest hearing the exculpatory DNA evidence in their possession that another male, not Sollecito or Lumumba, was the rapist.
 
I was referring to what was happening in the media, including radio and TV, and online the first two years. I believe you and others that weigh in on how different things said during that period only know about those parts that aren't archived through hearsay.
While perhaps a somewhat salient point, there is a whole host of YouTube stuff, as well as print-stuff still on line from that period, as well as the WayBack service. Methinks you exaggerate this point for some unknown reason. Indeed, before joining IIP and JREF, I'd seen/read enough of that period to appreciate how much things went off the rails.

Any "lies" the FOA may have told pale in significance to the avalanche from other sources. Indeed, it really does seem that the FOA was simply playing catch-up most of the time responding to the, then, latest PLE leak of prejudicial information.

While it is clear that they didn't ever get some data are you sure that Italian law prevented them from getting any of the evidence" Perhaps Numbers will research this issue, as the year period should be illegal. AFAIK people here must be charged within 72 hours of arrest. To be held one year without charges should be against the ECHR rules. It should void our treaty with Italy.
I do not know if Italian law prevents them from getting the information, but Italian law places no obligation on to the prosecution to engage in disclosure until the formal charge is laid. I've read that this is because they do not wish the defence to monkey with evidence during the up-to-year-long investigative phase. It's a Mafia thing.

I'm shocked that so many here had not heard of J4J before I provided the link.

I'd heard of it through other sources.
 
As a second post ever; I am a Ph.D. Molecular Biologist with many years of experience in DNA technology. I am somewhat familiar with the details of the Meredith Kercher case. In science it is fundamentally essential that one has data in order to evaluate an issue, let alone draw meaningful conclusions. It is thus significant that in this case the prosecution has suppressed the release of essentially all of the fundamental data required to evaluate their DNA analyses. From a logical, scientific perspective, this lack of supporting data, renders the prosecution's laboratory evidence scientifically meaningless. It is simply not logically possible to draw a conclusion from an assertion. A scientist requires reproducible data.

Truly, the glazed look some may have in listening to you is not that you are boring.... it is that you are talking at a level of expertise which is much needed and not always appreciated by us way up in the cheap seats.
 
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