Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Numbers]

The issues regarding the Italian authorities' unjustified disclosure of Amanda Knox's private writings, her private life, private conversations, and their false statements about her character and private actions may be better described as violations of Convention Article 8:

ARTICLE 8
Right to respect for private and family life
1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family
life, his home and his correspondence.
2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the
exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the
law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of
national security, public safety or the economic wellbeing of the
country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection
of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms

I bow to your superior knowledge Numbers.

It's just that I think the leaks were more to do with helping get a conviction by swaying public opinion, and IMO have more to do with violating her rights to a fair trial than with her right to privacy in this case.

Mr Fied,

You may have a point that the leaks of material were meant to prejudice the trial outcome against Amanda. This would imply a potential violation of Convention Article 6. Of course, the final verdict was that Amanda and Raffaele were not guilty (innocent), so the leaks of case materials or other private information may not fall, strictly speaking, under Article 6.

ECHR case-law does provide precedent for considering leaks from a prosecution case-file or from the State's other information, whether true or false, of a suspect's or accused's private life, as a violation of Convention Article 8.

One example of the ECHR finding that leaks of information from a case-file is a violation of Article 8 is:

Apostu v. Romania 22765/12 03/02/2015 {from the legal summary:}

Article 8

Article 8-1

Respect for private life

Leak of information from criminal investigation file to the press: violation

Facts – In 2011 the applicant, a former mayor, was placed in pre-trial detention on suspicion of corruption and forgery. Before he was committed to stand trial, several newspapers published information and documents from the investigation file, quoting extracts from intercepted telephone conversations and referring to aspects of the applicant’s private life unrelated to the trial. The criminal proceedings against the applicant were still pending at the time of the European Court’s judgment.

Law – Article 8: Excerpts from the prosecution file concerning the applicant’s case had become public before the beginning of the adversarial phase of the proceedings and their content had put the applicant in an unfavourable light, giving the impression that he had committed crimes. Moreover, parts of the telephone conversations of a strictly private nature had not served to advance the criminal prosecution and their publication had thus not corresponded to a pressing social need. The leak of that information by the authorities thus constituted an interference with the applicant’s right to respect for his private life.

Under the domestic law, public access to information contained in a criminal case file was possible only after the case had been lodged with a court but even then it was limited and subject to judicial control. However, in the applicant’s case the possibility for a judge to assess whether a piece of information should be disclosed to the public had been impaired because it had already been leaked to the press. The respondent State had thus failed to provide safe custody of the information in their possession in order to secure the applicant’s right to respect for his private life or to offer him any means of redress once the breach of his rights had occurred.

Conclusion: violation (unanimously).

 

[Vixen]

Again we have Amanda's sex life being held up as an indication to her being involved in a murder she was found not guilty of.

She has been accused of nymphomania, lesbianism, having sex with a guy on a train, having casual sex with drug dealers, having sex in exchange for drugs etc.

Mach even suggested that Amanda had sexual contact with Guede for drugs.

When Amanda was falsely told she had HIV, she made a list of her sexual partners in her private diary, which somehow managed to find it's way to the press.

(ECHR Article 3
"No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment." hmmmm)

I wonder if Vixen or Mach believe that she lied to herself in making this list whilst terrified with the prospect of having contracted HIV.

If not, could Vixen or Mach please point out where on the list the guy on the train, the drug dealers or even Guede are.

I think it has been proved that only one of the girls from the cottage was in a sexual relationship with a drug supplier.

The fact is, Mez was posed by her killers in an exact replication of a manga comic found at Raff's flat. It was her killers who introduced pervy sex into the murder.

It was Amanda herself who focused on her European sex fest. Even the seven-day "fairytale relationship" with Raff had Amanda being unfaithful a few times. It was Amanda who put the photo of the middle-aged drug dealer on the train onto the webpage, MySpace, and appeared to describe Rudy as the "most beautiful black guy I have ever seen".

 

[bagels]

I knew this Cypriot girl with a bone disorder which made her look monstrous and she managed to bed half the guys in the neighbourhood. I was invited to her eighteenth birthday and was pretty shocked when she went to her bedroom and asked the guys at the party to queue up outside her door as she laid them one by one.

haha wtf

The fact is, Mez was posed by her killers in an exact replication of a manga comic found at Raff's flat. It was her killers who introduced pervy sex into the murder.

Did it include covering the body with a blanket? If so you might be on to something. And do you have a link, for uh, research purposes.

 

[carbonjam72]

The fascination is that a young woman could behave like that. I don't think she's good looking. The photos for her book are heavily airbrushed. On TV she had to have layers of panstick plastered over her face. She's short and stubby, with a hideous cold sore on her lip. Her nose has no bridge. Her eyes "look like p!ss holes in the snow" (quote from Get Carter, film).

Her gaze is mocking and sly. Her voice is like chalk scraping against a board. She is already looking like squared-faced Edda. Who knows what's in Curt's genes. Other notorious female killer, Aileen Wuornos had a dad who passed his criminal genes onto her.

Amanda is ugly, outside and within. She doesn't have the grace to come clean or show remorse. Instead we have to suffer a neverending pity party, whilst natural beauty Mez lies cold in her grave, her life and bright future stolen away from her.

At Mez' funeral, the church reading tactfully left out the next line in the text about how murderers would be damned.

Does this mean you're no longer undecided about guilt or innocence, as you first claimed?

Are you even the same poster, or has some reprobate hacked your account?

 

[LondonJohn]

Only by a totally bent Supreme Court Bench.

Now that one IS libellous! Looking forward to seeing how it plays out - I hear that Italian jurists can be very litigious

 

[Vixen]

Does this mean you're no longer undecided about guilt or innocence, as you first claimed?

Are you even the same poster, or has some reprobate hacked your account?

I do have an open mind. However, apart from some helpful posts from Randy and one or two others, I've heard nothing but soundbites or even outright fantasy scenarios that has Rudy bounding up nine foot walls with a nine pound boulder and then performing two-knife tricks and leaving behind six-billion dollar man type footprints, in at least three different shapes and sizes, shod and unshod.

So I take it, the kids were there.

 

[carbonjam72]

Really. While it might be argued that she didn't "Know" Rudi there is no way it can be argued she didn't meet him.

She professed to know Rudy Hermann Guede, although just ‚a little.‛ She remembered that she had met him in the center of town, during the course of an evening in which she had (also) met the guys who lived in her same house at Via della Pergola-- but they lived downstairs-- and they had introduced her to Rudy. Then she had spent most of the time with Meredith and they had returned home, all together. On another occasion, she met him (i.e., Rudy) at the ‚Le Chic‛ pub. She also remembered attending a party in the second half of the month of October 2007, together with the guys who lived downstairs.

Answering a specific question on the matter, she stated that she did not have a relationship with Rudy Guede; she remembered that someone had introduced him to her and she had seen him around on a few occasions. Once he came into the pub where she worked.

He (Giacomo) recalled that he had been at their house one evening. They had found him going around and they had started to talk. They were going home and he went with them. He remembered that Rudy had asked for information about Amanda Knox and that he had showed interest in her.
This had happened towards the middle of October. He had asked for this information from him, from Marco and from Stefano. This happened when he had gone to their place. Amanda was there with them and Rudy had noticed her.

Visiting the house in Via della Pergola, he had seen Rudy there two or three times, and on these occasions Amanda and Meredith were also there; Rudy was talking to both of them and on one occasion he confided in them that he liked Amanda

The last witness was wrong. He hadn't seen them that many times.

The above are from Massei. I doubt that Amanda denies meeting him.

Were they good friends? No. Were they in touch by phone or text? No. Is there any evidence they were in any sort of regular contact? No.

Had she met him? Yes.

They weren't friends at all.

Rudy was a sleazy hanger on, who hung around the guys downstairs, waited until they were out of town, so he could rob their female housemates, and wound up killing one by accident. Then rubbed one out over her as she lay dying by his hand. Rudy is in no way comparable to the serious and accomplished college students Amanda and Raf.

 

[bagels]

I do have an open mind. However, apart from some helpful posts from Randy and one or two others, I've heard nothing but soundbites or even outright fantasy scenarios that has Rudy bounding up nine foot walls with a nine pound boulder and then performing two knife tricks and leaving behind six-billion dollar man type footprints, in at least three different shapes and sizes, shod and unshod.

So I take it, the kids were there.

"

LM: However this break in took place in this window, three/four meters high.

PB: More or less

LM: Did you find a ladder close by?

PB: No

LM: Did you find other tools?

PB: No.

PB: ... the glass of this window was broken with the aid of a piece of porphyry, a big rock that we found there at the spot....evidently the person or persons that entered with the help of this very heavy porphyry because a double glass had to be broken...

LM: Anyhow it was not easy to climb up.

PB: Absolutely not.

"

For the Nth time here's the testimony from Rudy's break-in at the law office. What's it like to read this and have it go in one ear and out the other without any additional processing? It's not something I've experienced much, since my reading comprehension tends to be pretty good.

 

[Vixen]

haha wtf



Did it include covering the body with a blanket? If so you might be on to something. And do you have a link, for uh, research purposes.

Here's one. I believe the duvet was meant to be a temporary cover, with the door locked, but the killers were interrupted by the arrival of the police before they could finalise things, hence the impromptu story, "Mez' door is always locked; nothing to worry about!"

Some may find it graphic.

NSFW - graphic content

http://www.readmanga.eu/manga/9346/Blood-the-Last-Vampire-2000/2/29

 

[bagels]

I believe the duvet was meant to be a temporary cover, with the door locked, but the killers were interrupted by the arrival of the police before they could finalise things, hence the impromptu story, "Mez' door is always locked; nothing to worry about!"

That's almost as good as my postcard theory, I'll give you that.

 

[Vixen]

"

LM: However this break in took place in this window, three/four meters high.

PB: More or less

LM: Did you find a ladder close by?

PB: No

LM: Did you find other tools?

PB: No.

PB: ... the glass of this window was broken with the aid of a piece of porphyry, a big rock that we found there at the spot....evidently the person or persons that entered with the help of this very heavy porphyry because a double glass had to be broken...

LM: Anyhow it was not easy to climb up.

PB: Absolutely not.

"

For the Nth time here's the testimony from Rudy's break-in at the law office. What's it like to read this and have it go in one ear and out the other without any additional processing? It's not something I've experienced much, since my reading comprehension tends to be pretty good.

What did you not comprehend about the lawyer giving his opinion it was an inside job with confidential legal data sought after?

 

[Vixen]

That's almost as good as my postcard theory, I'll give you that.

No, the manga scene is the police and prosecution's theory.

You are merely facetious = logical fallacy: it'll go away if we're flippant about it

 

[Vixen]

They weren't friends at all.

Rudy was a sleazy hanger on, who hung around the guys downstairs, waited until they were out of town, so he could rob their female housemates, and wound up killing one by accident. Then rubbed one out over her as she lay dying by his hand. Rudy is in no way comparable to the serious and accomplished college students Amanda and Raf.

Yes, a sleazy hanger-on whom Amanda arranged to let in to give Mez some bother.

 

[bagels]

What did you not comprehend about the lawyer giving his opinion it was an inside job with confidential legal data sought after?

A physical description of the scene he witnessed is more accurate and valuable than his speculations about the motive. That's when you end up doing crazy things like turning break-ins gone bad into group manga murders between three virtual strangers.

But yes I understand, it was just an incredible coincidence that a physical description of the peculiar and difficult break-in at the law office, which Rudy was later arrested and convicted for holding stolen property from, is nearly identical to a physical description of the peculiar and difficult break-in at the cottage, where Rudy left his bloody shoe and hand-prints, among other things.

 

[Kauffer]

Yes, a sleazy hanger-on whom Amanda arranged to let in to give Mez some bother.

How did she do that? Telepathy?

 

[RWVBWL]

Unless you get the hair follicle and the sample is quite fresh, it's difficult to get hair DNA. The hairs were lost;

Greeings Vixen,
Wasn't Miss Kercher found raped + murdered less than 24 hours after it happened?
How fresh does a hair follicle sample need to be?

Surely you are not suggesting that Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni did ****** work?

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove breach of rule 10. Do not attempt to evade the autocensor by altering the spelling of, or by incompletely masking, curse words. Type such words out in full with the correct spelling, and allow the autocensor to work.

Blimey, reminds me of schoolboys aged 14.
"Miss, did you get it last night, fnarr, fnarr?"

Must be something in that California sea air.
You should bottle it.

Funny!
It seems like a certain Italian school boy liked to kiss and tell.
Must be something in the Umbrian air...


From Marco's Nov. 3rd Witness Deposition:
A. I confirm that Meredith did come to our residence; I believe they made love in Giacomo's room at least once.

A. Sometimes Giacomo would recount his sexual experiences with Meredith to me;
in particular, he told me that he also performed oral and anal sexual acts with her.

Link:
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-co...7-11-03-Witness-deposition-Marzan-English.pdf

 

[RWVBWL]

Here's a little more about the Down Stairs crime Scene, from Marco:
A. The black cat actually has an injured ear but I am not aware that it has dripped blood.

A. My cousin usually uses blue bedsheets.

A. As a rule, the cat likes to sleep on the bed, mostly Stefano's, so I reckon it was the cat that pulled the cover and slept there on the floor.

A. I am astonished by the fact you have told me, that there is a lot of blood on Stefano's bed.

A. I have never seen any stain of blood on the light switch in the hall.

A. The stone you have found in the house is perhaps the same as [or like] those near the shed [lit. pigsty].

A. I have never seen blood in the sink in the kitchen.

* * *

"The stone you have found in the house"?
Marco's talking about the stone used to break in Filomena's window, right?
Or is he talking about a stone found in his downstairs flat?

Did someone throw a stone to smash in a downstairs window?
Some of us have wondered how Rudy Guede, if it were him,
might have gained entrance downstairs.

Man,
this stone intrigues me!
For Marco seems to be pretty much only talking about what was happening downstairs in his pad...

I'd like to hear more.
too bad this had to happen:
The Office acknowledges that, on behalf of a competent judicial authority,
the witness is required to observe secrecy in order not to prejudice the inquiry in progress.
Read, confirmed, signed.


Now where oh where
is the un-edited original Crime Scene Video from Down Stairs
from Nov. 2nd?

I wonder what's on those missing 11 minutes + 16 seconds of video?

 

[Ken Dine]

Really. While it might be argued that she didn't "Know" Rudi there is no way it can be argued she didn't meet him.

She professed to know Rudy Hermann Guede, although just ‚a little.‛ She remembered that she had met him in the center of town, during the course of an evening in which she had (also) met the guys who lived in her same house at Via della Pergola-- but they lived downstairs-- and they had introduced her to Rudy. Then she had spent most of the time with Meredith and they had returned home, all together. On another occasion, she met him (i.e., Rudy) at the ‚Le Chic‛ pub. She also remembered attending a party in the second half of the month of October 2007, together with the guys who lived downstairs.

Answering a specific question on the matter, she stated that she did not have a relationship with Rudy Guede; she remembered that someone had introduced him to her and she had seen him around on a few occasions. Once he came into the pub where she worked.

He (Giacomo) recalled that he had been at their house one evening. They had found him going around and they had started to talk. They were going home and he went with them. He remembered that Rudy had asked for information about Amanda Knox and that he had showed interest in her.
This had happened towards the middle of October. He had asked for this information from him, from Marco and from Stefano. This happened when he had gone to their place. Amanda was there with them and Rudy had noticed her.

Visiting the house in Via della Pergola, he had seen Rudy there two or three times, and on these occasions Amanda and Meredith were also there; Rudy was talking to both of them and on one occasion he confided in them that he liked Amanda

The last witness was wrong. He hadn't seen them that many times.

The above are from Massei. I doubt that Amanda denies meeting him.

Were they good friends? No. Were they in touch by phone or text? No. Is there any evidence they were in any sort of regular contact? No.

Had she met him? Yes.

Again, that depends upon your definition of "met".

It also apparently depends upon having Massei do your thinking for you.

In any event, other than Massei's opinion, everything you mentioned above matches what I have already stated about Amanda and Guede's very few social contacts, at which time no one ever saw them actually talk to one another.

Clearly, the downstairs boys didn't know Guede well enough to even know his actual name since they called him either "Baron" or "Byron".

So, in their few chance encounters, did Guede ever converse with Amanda and ask anything personal, such as questions about her studies?

Did Amanda talk to Guede about his work, or even talk about basketball?

NO!

All Amanda knew about Guede was that he was Black-African (from his appearance) and that Guede had had some contact with Meredith, the same contact that Amanda had with Guede, which wasn't much.

That's why on Nov 5th prior to her all-night interrogation, when asked by the police to list all the dark-skinned men who may have known Meredith (presumably since the police had found African hairs in Meredith's bedroom), Amanda mentioned that there was an African guy who occasionally hung around with the boys downstairs, but she didn't know his name.

Just being in the same room with someone is NOT meeting them - otherwise, you would have technically 'MET' Bruce Fischer, and he doesn't feel he ever 'MET' you.

If Bruce Fischer spoke at the event and he was introduced to everyone in the room (including you) prior to speaking, then you would certainly know who Bruce Fischer was by way of that general introduction, but you wouldn't have actually 'MET' Bruce Fischer.

If after his speech if you had approached Bruce Fischer and introduced yourself, and if the two of you had talked for even 20 seconds, then I would say that you technically would have 'MET' Bruce Fischer.

Again, it all depends upon your definition of "met," and I don't feel that Rudy Guede ever 'met' and made the acquaintance of Amanda Knox, even though Amanda clearly did have enough contact with Guede to know him by sight.

 

[Bill Williams]

Had she met him? Yes.

Again, that depends upon your definition of "met".

It also apparently depends upon having Massei do your thinking for you.

In any event, other than Massei's opinion, everything you mentioned above matches what I have already stated about Amanda and Guede's very few social contacts, at which time no one ever saw them actually talk to one another.

<............ sinister deletia..............>


Again, it all depends upon your definition of "met," and I don't feel that Rudy Guede ever 'met' and made the acquaintance of Amanda Knox, even though Amanda clearly did have enough contact with Guede to know him by sight.

This is the price we pay for a delayed motivations report.

Which, I guess, all depends on your definition of 'delayed'. Or of '.'.

 

[Grinder]

And the importance of this post-March 2015 is.......... ?

As has been pointed out, most no post here was ever important. There is no reason for you to be here at all because of March 2015.

This particular item is part of a discussion involving a time you can only have hearsay knowledge on as others that started following late. An early statement made by Amanda's supporters included one that she had never even met Rudi.

I contended that these types of statements ultimately hurt her public image and may have made some reporters more skeptical of statements by her side, read Barbie, Vogt, Pisa et al.