Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[analemma]

Not even Stefanoni can fake a DNA profile. That belongs in the realms of Asimov and Heinlein.

Your theory the mixed DNA of Mez and Amanda was carefully planted by cops is sci-fi at its wackiest.

Considering the cops and prosecutors you we are talking about, it is highly likely that some of the DNA was FABRICATED.
Remember, we are talking about the wiretapping cops finding out that the bloody shoes belong to Guede, not Raf, and the cops, to avoid looking like absolute nutcases, have to go back to the crime site after SIX WEEKs and come up with some MAGICAL DNA that matches one of the capriciously accused innocents.
The DNA that was probably smeared on the bra strap from the visibly dirty gloves, WAS mixed with the DNA of three other males, but in Italy the cops make it up along the way and do as they wish.
Yes, finding this DNA was a magical piece of police work: Just as unlikely as something out of Asimov and Heinlein, in fact, neither of them would dream of including such a transparent frame up in their writings..

 

[Bill Williams]

Not even Stefanoni can fake a DNA profile. That belongs in the realms of Asimov and Heinlein.

Your theory the mixed DNA of Mez and Amanda was carefully planted by cops is sci-fi at its wackiest.

Considering the cops and prosecutors you we are talking about, it is highly likely that some of the DNA was FABRICATED.
Remember, we are talking about the wiretapping cops finding out that the bloody shoes belong to Guede, not Raf, and the cops, to avoid looking like absolute nutcases, have to go back to the crime site after SIX WEEKs and come up with some MAGICAL DNA that matches one of the capriciously accused innocents.
The DNA that was probably smeared on the bra strap from the visibly dirty gloves, WAS mixed with the DNA of three other males, but in Italy the cops make it up along the way and do as they wish.
Yes, finding this DNA was a magical piece of police work: Just as unlikely as something out of Asimov and Heinlein, in fact, neither of them would dream of including such a transparent frame up in their writings..

Without the release of the raw data files, the EDFs, how can one tell whether or not the profiles have been faked?

You see the profile is the profile is the profile. Raffaele has one, so do all three of the other contributors to 165B. It is true that those profiles cannot be faked, they just are.

The issue is this.... are the peaks (loci) on the machine of the analysis of 165 line up in a manner to match them? And are the peaks significant or just noise?

 

[RWVBWL]

RW,

Thanks for your several very good posts on the downstairs crime scene, and for pointing out that Mignini may well have entered the downstairs flat.

It's clear to me that early on, perhaps by Nov. 3 or 4, the police and prosecutor had decided to eliminate the evidence in the downstairs flat from their theory of the crime in order to formulate their false case against Amanda. Obtaining the missing video segment would help provide persuasive documentation of this allegation of official misconduct.

Hi Numbers,
On Nov. 2nd,
ALL 4 of the boyz from downstairs were apparently interrogated by regular cops like everyone else was.

But on Nov. 3rd,
Ricardo was interrogated at 4:30 by:
Assistant Deputy Chief Dr. Edgardo Giobbi; Assistant Deputy Chief Profazio, Domenico Giacinto; Assistant Deputy Chief Dr. Marco Chiacchiera; Chief Inspector Faccini, Antonio; Vice Superintendent Moscatelli, Daniele.

Ricardo was also interrogated once more at 17:50 by:
Assistant Deputy Chief Domenico Giacinto Profazio, Assistant Deputy Chief GIOBBI, Edgardo, Deputy Commissioner Monica NAPOLEONI, and Chief Inspectors Antonio FACCHINI and Rita FICARRA.

[Handwritten] "It shall be recorded that, at 20:05 today, the proceedings are reopened, in order to inform Luciani of the fact that, on behalf of a competent judicial authority, he is required to observe secrecy as a witness, in order not to prejudice the inquiry in progress".


Marco was interrogated at 18:40 by:
Assistant Deputy Chief Domenico Giacinto Profazio, Assistant Deputy Chief GIOBBI, Edgardo, Deputy Commissioner Monica NAPOLEONI, and Chief Inspectors Antonio FACCHINI and Rita FICARRA.

"The Office acknowledges that, on behalf of a competent judicial authority, the witness is required to observe secrecy in order not to prejudice the inquiry in progress".


Stefano was interrogated at 21:40 by:
Assistant Deputy Chief Domenico Giacinto Profazio, Assistant Deputy Chief Giobbi, Edgardo, and Deputy Commissioner Monica Napoleoni.

"Bonassi has been informed of the fact that, on behalf of a competent judicial authority, in the capacity of a witness he is required to observe secrecy in order not to prejudice the inquiry in progress".


Giacomo,
Meredith's new boyfriend,
was apparently not interrogated on Nov. 3rd.


On Nov. 4th,
Stefano was interrogated by:
Deputy Prosecutor Dr. Giuliano Mignini,
Assistant Deputy Chief Giobbi, Edgardo; Assistant Deputy Chief Profazio, Domenico Giacinto; Deputy Commissioner Monica Napoleoni; Chief Inspector Antonio Facchini; Deputy Superintendent Moscatelli, Daniele.

Stefano was apparently the only dude interrogated on 3 different days.

* * *

Yes, unfortunately it also happened in this case that a cat that drove us mad because initially, during the on-the-spot investigation, the investigation in the house on via della Pergola, thus the house where the body was found, unfortunately we were badly misled, almost made fools of by the fact that a cat - obviously wounded, had got into the let-us-say flat below the victim's flat. Obviously there was glass shards, broken in short, that were produced in entering the flat because the keys couldn't be found I know. And therefore this cat, unfortunately, was hurt and had left blood all over the place, obviously making us carry out an absolutely crazy sampling job because we thought that somebody had clearly ... in short, I don't know, [something] linked to the crime, and therefore had lost blood. But instead, it was actually a cat.

Link:
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Patrizia_Stefanoni's_Testimony_(English)


If you believe Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni's testimony in The Massei Trial,
where she states that a cat almost made fools of the investigators,
well then after breaking in downstairs and searching both bathrooms, the kitchen, living room and all bedrooms,
the cops must not have seen any blood downstairs, right?

But overnight,
the cat came back in, cut itself doing so, tramped blood all over the place, even jumping up on a light switch plate, and confused all these seasoned investigators into believing the blood was from a person linked to the crime.

Maybe there was no blood found downstairs there on the 2nd.
I just don't believe it.

But if there was blood found downstairs on Nov. 2nd,
how would you hide this info?

Ah,
maybe delete that 1st recorded video,
from the initial break-in and search, dated from Nov. 2nd,
but showing where the blood is then seen the next day on Nov. 3rd,
and blame it on the cat?

Trust us, folks,
the blood was not there on Nov. 2nd...


Link:
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/witness-depositions/

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi ya'll,
here's another couple of tidbits of info from The Down Stairs Crime Scene:
Stefano Bonassi:
Responds to a question
(A): Normally I am disorganized but before leaving I put my room in perfect order because we tidied up the whole house. However I left the duvet over the two bed cushions to avoid them getting covered with dust.

A:<snip>
Those days, Meredith had the keys from from my place.

<snip>
A. I don't know how to explain the traces of blood on my duvet given that my door was locked with a key as well as the window. Ricardo had also closed (locked) everything.

Link:
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Stefano-Bonassi-Statement-3-Nov-2007.pdf
* * *

Stefano says that he locked his bedroom door.
Surely the cops would have seen the blood on his duvet and bed itself
when they unlocked his door and 1st went inside his bedroom.

If there was no blood there on Nov. 2nd,
why have all the big guns interrogate Stefano and room mates on Nov. 3rd
and ask them questions about blood?

Surely some of the cops
saw there was no blood there on Nov. 2nd,
and then told the senior investigators when they then found blood overnight
at some point.

Perplexing...

I wonder of something though.
Meredith had Giacomo's keys and Stefano's?
Rudy locked Meredith's door after he split.
Did he also lock Stefano's bedroom door if he want down there also?
Or was it unlocked when the cops went in his bedroom?

I've seen on the Nov. 3rd Crime Scene video
that someone, the cops or (?) broke into Ricardo's bedroom,
the room with his dirty laundry spread about on top of his bed,
which he said was not like that when he left.
His door latch is smashed, like Miss Kercher's door...

 

[Methos]

Question for you kind folks:
Where is a photo or Crime Scene video of the blood on the plate of the light switch???

The Secret Downstairs Crime Scene
Scroll down a little bit until you reach the subheader "Crime Scene Photos":

 

[Ken Dine]

Thanks for the input,
I kinda figured that you might be tinkerin' with it right now!



Hey Ken Dine and anyone else interested,
the boyz cat,
already hurt, was left inside the downstairs house.

From Ricardo:
A. In these days of absence, I heard from the other boys that Giacomo left a set of house keys to Meredith so she would take care of the cat, particularly to treat it with Frontline.

A. Frontline is an anti-parasitic treatment; however, as for the ear injury, that was being treated with a disinfectant and in any case with water and salt.

You also had posted this about the cat:

A. We have two cats. We keep the black one in the house; the other is more of a stray one and stays outside. The black cat fell ill on Tuesday, October 26, I think; its right ear was injured. However I remember that it was eating; under the small sink in the small bathroom it lost a lot of blood because it was shaking its head. Those days, Meredith had the keys from from my place.

In the past I've had tom-cats with injured and infected ears (from fighting) that similarly would shake their heads causing pus & blood to fly (ugh), but I never had a cat that left that much blood scattered about.

I wonder what the cats reactions were when Zugartini broke in and then PM Mig'i and his workers went into all the rooms?

It's rather obvious, to make the police feel welcome, the cat jumped up and turned on the light for them, as proved by leaving its blood on the wall switch.

Odd, I still can't see PM Mignini do this on video.

I wonder why?

Surely there was nothing to hide from the public about the boyz downstairs flat, right?

I mean, heck, they did film and show us the marijuana plants,
on the afternoon of Nov. 2nd as Miss Kercher still lay murdered under her duvet, and cops were heard laughing inside there, right?

What would they cops wanna hide?
Some blood seen on a light switch plate?
Some blood seen on Stefano's duvet,
behind his locked door, on Nov. 2nd?
Hmmmm...


Here's another tidbit from Ricardo,
before I hit the sack:

A. I have never noticed spots of blood on the switch in the living hall.

A. I do not recall any of us bleeding and drying oneself with a pillowcase.

A. I have not heard Stefano complain of finding blood on the beige duvet on his bed.

A. I have never noticed traces of blood on the casing of the window in the small bathroom.

Link:
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-co...s/2007-Nov-03-Police-deposition-Luciani-3.pdf

It's interesting to speculate about the downstairs (crime scene?), but we'll never likely learn all the details from the court's records since the lower apartment was seemingly officially declared to be irrelevant to Meredith's murder.

Maybe, the 4 boys know more and they'll one day reveal what they know?

Of course, in Italy you can get sued for casting a bad light onto the police and prosecutors, so that is likely what is holding a lot of Italians in check who may know more about this case than they have publicly said so far.

 

[Methos]

[...]
One random postcard on the floor of Filomena's room had Amanda's footprint on it. Make of that what you will. <fx sits back to await contrived convoluted explanation #umpty-9>

That's interesting, where does that information come from? Rinaldi mentions those shoeprints in his report on pages 22-27, but he says that all of them are: "Non utile per i confronti positivi ma utile per i confronti negativi." He doesn't mention any footprints.

There were two lots of suspicious unidentified DNA. Unless it's on a criminal database or someone to match it to, they will be unable to put a name to it. It might be completely innocuous.

Are you playing word games here? Which traces do you think are the "two lots of suspicious unidentified DNA."?
Could you please remind me, how many DNA reference samples were taken in this case? It must have been embarrassing for Stefanoni to have all those unidentifies "Uomos" (up to #8) and "Donnas" (at least #3) in her presentation, especially because it would have been easy to rule out the other housemates by asking them for a reference sample.

It looks like they didn't ask them because finding mixed traces of Romanelli/Kercher or Mezzetti/Kercher or traces of mixed DNA of all of them would further weaken the argument that the mixed traces of Kercher and Knox mean anything.

IIRC the argument was "We found no traces of Meredith Kercher's DNA mixed with the other housemates, so the mixed traces we found of Kercher and Knox have to be related to the murder." It should have been: "We didn't find mixed traces of Meredith Kercher and the other housemates, because we didn't look for them and even if we had found other mixed traces, we wouldn't have been able to identify the other housemates because we didn't have their reference samples."

Not even Stefanoni can fake a DNA profile. That belongs in the realms of Asimov and Heinlein.

That wasn't really an answer to my questions, was it?

Your theory the mixed DNA of Mez and Amanda was carefully planted by cops is sci-fi at its wackiest.

Where did I say that?

 

[acbytesla]

Not even Stefanoni can fake a DNA profile. That belongs in the realms of Asimov and Heinlein.
Your theory the mixed DNA of Mez and Amanda was carefully planted by cops is sci-fi at its wackiest.

Really? How do you know? My bet is that without providing the actual data files, producing an electropherogram could easily be done with photoshop.

 

[Ken Dine]

Not even Stefanoni can fake a DNA profile. That belongs in the realms of Asimov and Heinlein.
Your theory the mixed DNA of Mez and Amanda was carefully planted by cops is sci-fi at its wackiest.

Really? How do you know? My bet is that without providing the actual data files, producing an electropherogram could easily be done with photoshop.

It's my understanding that once the EDFs are fed into a computer program (such as Stef had used), that the results of the raw data can then be manipulated subjectively quite a bit by the person analyzing the DNA (especially w/ LCN-DNA or mixed DNA samples), which is the purpose in providing the defense with the EDFs, to allow the defense to verify the prosecution's results.

Ideally, to avoid manipulated results favoring the prosecution, the technician shouldn't even have the suspect's DNA profile available for comparison (and potential manipulation).

Here in America, they are also now considering on feeding DNA labs occasional known DNA samples to check their accuracy, and to make these tests meaningful, the crime-lab technician wouldn't know which samples are a test or from an actual case.

DNA can be a wonderful tool that can both exonerate as well as rightfully convict guilty people, but we are far from having a reliable crime lab system, especially when dealing with mixed DNA samples and LCN-DNA samples, such as was supposedly found on Meredith's bra clasp.

 

[Dougm]

No one outside of this discussion cares what Vixen thinks about this case. No one cares what anyone thinks anymore. The case is over now. These discussions are trapped in a vacuum with a dozen people. At one time, these conversations were great. I am a true believer that open conversation can often lead to the truth. This case was a bit unique. The remaining people are now deeply entrenched. You can all sit here and repeat yourselves over and over again until you are dead. No one else cares. This discussion was mentioned on our forum so I came and took a look. It is really odd to see the same discussion going on in an endless loop. Scroll back one year, two years, or three years. The conversation is the same.

And I really don't think Vixen is being sincere when she claims to want it all to end. Vixen loves the attention. This forum feeds Vixen what she craves.

I am really not here to mock anyone. Hell, I wasted time posting these few comments myself. So who am I to judge? I just wish people here were capable of directing their energy at current problems that need to be solved, instead of getting stuck in time. There are many others that are in need of help.

I think that, although some people chat about this, and other cases, online with an agenda, some just find it entertaining and fun to talk about. As frequently or infrequently as they find interesting or enjoyable. I've spoken to several people offline who think the entire practice of debating these cases on an online forum is strange.

If we decide everyone on this forum is talking about this or other cases because they are trying to affect some change or outcome, then maybe it is a waste of time for those people to keep talking about a case that has long ago been solved. But maybe they just find it fun. It's not an impediment to anyone else's case, it's just a conversation.

 

[RWVBWL]

The Secret Downstairs Crime Scene
Scroll down a little bit until you reach the subheader "Crime Scene Photos":
<snip>

Ah,
the mythical cat's blood on the light switch,
make that the light switch plate.

Hmmmm,
as I watch The Billabong Pro,
live in Tahiti:
http://www.worldsurfleague.com/events/2015/mct/1267/billabong-pro-tahiti/live
I'll ponder this blood drop,
was it from someone holding the cat as it shook it's head,
or was this drop of blood from a cut on someone's hand who did not live downstairs?

I wonder,
was it tested for DNA,
if so what were the results?
Did it match any animal species
or was it from 1 of those homo sapiens?

 

[Diocletus]

I wonder,
was it tested for DNA,
if so what were the results?
Did it match any animal species
or was it from 1 of those homo sapiens?

This sample is not noted to be cat blood. It was quantified ("too low") and amplified, but the resulting profile has been suppressed.

 

[Diocletus]

Not even Stefanoni can fake a DNA profile. That belongs in the realms of Asimov and Heinlein.

Your theory the mixed DNA of Mez and Amanda was carefully planted by cops is sci-fi at its wackiest.

To echo some posters above, according to Stefanoni herself (per her letter to Hellman), anybody can manipulate the lab results if she has the raw data. She had the raw data.

 

[Mike1711]

A team of Massei's judges went to visit the scene and seven or more of them fit into Mez' room very comfortably with ample space to spare. Your theory "no way three psychos could fit in Mez' room" is dead in the water.

From bloody tissues and a blunt knife in the bushes, cops thought they were looking for another unidentified couple.

Incidentally, police do not rely on suspects and perpetrators for their information! Innocent is what they all say!

Nice little body swerving side step, Vixen. I did not say three psychos (I said one only and his name is Rudy). You said MORE than three. Sure you could fit twenty into the room....all standing upright and with no way to move.

Of course police get information from the guilty and the sometimes the guilty get sentence concessions for giving information (in the underworld land it's called "stitching up" or "ratting". Rudy got a sentence concession despite lying, which is absurd

But the real question is the one you sidestep. I'll ask again. How is it that you devote none of your time and energy on the known perpetrator, Rudy? You know he has lied his way through his trial and you know he withholds the truth. Why don't you start a "True Justice for Meredith" aimed specifically at Rudy for a full and truthful statement. The problem is he doesn't need a concession because he had it handed to him a plate, quit pro quo be damned.

 

[RWVBWL]

I wonder,
was it tested for DNA,
if so what were the results?
Did it match any animal species
or was it from 1 of those homo sapiens?

This sample is not noted to be cat blood.
It was quantified ("too low") and amplified, but the resulting profile has been suppressed.

Hi Diocletus,
So I just looked at the chart linked by Methos earlier,
what the heck?

Field Rep 10/Lab Rep 28
was indeed tested on Tuesday, Nov. 6t.,
Plate 357, Serial #'s 688 + 689.
Profile: Missing???



Missing Profile???
As were the testing results of the blood found on Stefano's bed,
and his blue pillowcase found on the floor in a different part of the flat.

Heya Vixen,
I still like correspondin' with you,
even though you have never worn a bikini!


As we carry on the conversation,
(Nice! Doug M),
I wonder, what do you, Vixen,
make of those Missing Profiles
from The Down Stairs Crime Scene?


Why would all the big wigs interrogate Stefano, Marco, Ricardo,
but not Giacomo,
on Nov. 3rd,
and tell them 3 boyz to keep quiet
IF they knew the blood video'd on Nov. 3rd
was not there after Flyin' Squad officer Zugarini 1st broke in
+ PM Mignini, lookin' soooo cute in them blue booties,
surely searched the boyz downstairs flat on Nov. 2nd,
as Miss Kercher still lay dead, upstairs, under her duvet?

 

[carbonjam72]

This sample is not noted to be cat blood. It was quantified ("too low") and amplified, but the resulting profile has been suppressed.

If it quantified as 'too low', does that mean the amplified result is useless?

 

[Numbers]

If it quantified as 'too low', does that mean the amplified result is useless?

It could mean there was no DNA there. The profile might be the result of contamination. Or there might have been a small amount of DNA present and the profile might be meaningful.

 

[RWVBWL]

Meredith Kercher's Bedroom.

The Bloody Wall Print

I'd really like to see lab results of this fresh drop of blood:

versus the lab results of this drop of blood found downstairs:

It looks like both dropped off someone's hand,
and then dribbled down a bit...

 

[Diocletus]

If it quantified as 'too low', does that mean the amplified result is useless?

Yes, because there's no way to show that the profile is derived from dna that was actually on the exhibit, as opposed to dna that is a lab contaminant. In effect, the chain if custody is broken.

 

[LondonJohn]

I think that, although some people chat about this, and other cases, online with an agenda, some just find it entertaining and fun to talk about. As frequently or infrequently as they find interesting or enjoyable. I've spoken to several people offline who think the entire practice of debating these cases on an online forum is strange.

If we decide everyone on this forum is talking about this or other cases because they are trying to affect some change or outcome, then maybe it is a waste of time for those people to keep talking about a case that has long ago been solved. But maybe they just find it fun. It's not an impediment to anyone else's case, it's just a conversation.

Personally speaking, I stumbled into the debate about this case purely by happenstance. And I became more and more interested in learning and debating because (in order of "importance" to me): a) it was quickly clear to me that the 2009 convictions of Knox and Sollecito were outrageously wrong and unjust, b) I felt there were some underlying truths to be discovered and debated (about the fallibility of criminal justice in general, and of Italian justice in particular), c) I found it to be somewhat intellectually stimulating, and d) I was emotionally drawn towards a debate which might - even in some minuscule part - have a real impact upon righting an injustice.

And with all that in mind, I remain interested in following the case here and elsewhere (and commenting/debating where I feel I might add something) right up until the final t has been crossed and i dotted. I want to see Knox's criminal slander conviction holed below the waterline by the ECHR. I want to see the ECHR also issue damning verdicts on the way the murder charges were pursued against both Knox and Sollecito. I want Italy to be held to account. I want Stefanoni to be held to account. I want Mignini's record to accurately reflect his role in all this, such that he might indirectly be called to account. And I want to see Italy reform its criminal justice system (though of course I'm extremely pessimistic about that last one....).

But I am not, in a broader sense, any sort of generalised "injustice warrior". I think that those who perform such a role - including Bruce, and others who post here and elsewhere - are commendable. But I am not one of them. As I said, it was sheer accident that brought me into this debate. I'm afraid I have neither the time nor the inclination to pick up the analysis, learning and debate of other potential miscarriages of justice. That's not to say that another miscarriage case might not capture my attention at some point in the future and draw me in - in the way that the Knox/Sollecito case did. But I'm not going looking for such a case.

So, in conclusion, I'll continue to keep an eye on the Knox/Sollecito case, while having no appetite to turn my attention towards other perceived miscarriages. To me, the current state of affairs in Knox/Sollecito feels a little like an epilogue in a long saga-like book. And when I read those sorts of books, I don't skip the epilogue.