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Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Hey Bruce Fisher,
Any chance you have an original copy of the Downstairs break in and 1st initial search
from Nov. 2nd at the boyz flat?

I'd really luv to see what's on the missing 11 minutes and 16 seconds of footage
we do not get to see in the publicly available video.

Heck, there wasn't a dead body in there right?
Nor was Rudy Guede sleeping in Stefano's bed either?

So why is the video missing?
Maybe there was blood on Stefano's bed and in the small bathroom already?
And on the light switch, as Number's recently reminded us again...

Any chance you have a few free minutes and can check for that missing video?

It'd be fun to point out that Dr. Steffy is lying, again.
:)
 
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Bruce Fischer said:
You should all Google the name Phil Connors. You are all currently suffering his affliction.
Click to expand...

Phil: What would you do if you were stuck in one place and every day was exactly the same, and nothing that you did mattered?
Ralph: That about sums it up for me.
 
Vixen said:
Copying and pasting your replies so that one response "fits all" might work on a forum.

In a court of law, evidence has to be tested.

In the real world (wake up Mr Tesla!) it was given - as in the scientific meaning of the word - there were at least three perpetrators QED::

Of course in La-la land, anything goes!

(ETA Soz, Kauffer, not AC.)
Click to expand...

I wish I understood you. On second thought, maybe not.
 
Grinder said:
Well it wasn't MY picture it was the one you referred to in the link, RGEO,
which was under the category of unusual grips.
Click to expand...


Hiya Grinder!

Nope,
it wasn't under the category of unusual grips:
http://www.jayfisher.com/Knife_Grip...m#The_Reverse_Defensive_Knife_Grip_Techniques

The unusual grip category is further down below on the same page...


The one in your link had the big hilt for a reason.
Click to expand...

The page that I linked to was about this:
Knife Grip Overview for Combat Knives

Those are combat knives,
and the RGEO is a commonly used also:

From Jay Fisher:
"This is a traditional reverse grip, because the handle orientation of most knives can accommodate either the traditional forward grip or reverse grip with the palm of the hand in the same location on the handle, along the spine. So, of the reverse grip techniques, this is the most frequently accommodated and the most comfortable for most knife handles."


ETA - it looks to me as if your palm and fingers
would might be cut if it slipped.
Click to expand...

Fixed your ETA for ya!
:)



Hey Grinder,
by the way, do you think that bloody wall print is from Rudy Guede?

I do,
and I think it's possible that single drop of blood seen below the finger marks
splashed onto the wall from Rudy Guede's cut palm.
 
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Bruce Fischer said:
Some believe Lincoln was killed by Roman Catholic's, maybe ordered by the Pope himself! There are similarities. Lincoln and the Pope both fancied tall hats.

http://blog.fords.org/2014/05/13/misinformation-and-conspiracy-theories-about-the-lincoln-assassination/
Click to expand...

I get the frustration. In a way though, this is the flip side of the vixen-coin, who also wants discussion to cease, although coming from different/opposite points of view.

No judgements on my end. Just saying...
 
Grinder said:
Once again we have a stretch. The AKC page doesn't say these items tested positive for blood.

2. Undisclosed Testing (Post Batch 2)

quantification report p47
Quantification Report p47 – Reference profiles quantified Nov 6, 2007
On November 16, the police, on a tip, broke into Rudy Guede’s apartment and seized 5 items bearing Field Nos. A, B, C, D and E, most of which had apparent blood on them. Of these items, Field No. B (a green toothbrush) has been designated as Rep. 58, which corresponds with an analysis date immediately following the completion of Batch 2 on November 14.

Blood on the toothbrush?
Click to expand...

Grinder,

The "apparent blood", as Diocletus points out, suggests that there was no information on whether or not Stefanoni had conducted confirmatory testing of the visible (I presume) apparent blood stains on items in Guede's flat.

Such confirmatory tests (such as the commercially available Hematrace, an antigen-antibody test) would have shown definitively if the blood stains in the downstairs cottage flat were not from a human.

Did Stefanoni use confirmatory blood tests on the apparent blood-stained items the police found in Guede's apartment?

There is, for those interested, a YouTube video showing the use of Hematrace:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ubr161S1FY
 
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RWVBWL said:
Hey Bruce Fisher,
Any chance you have an original copy of the Downstairs break in and 1st initial search
from Nov. 2nd at the boyz flat?

I'd really luv to see what's on the missing 11 minutes and 16 seconds of footage
we do not get to see in the publicly available video.

Heck, there wasn't a dead body in there right?
Nor was Rudy Guede sleeping in Stefano's bed either?

So why is the video missing?
Maybe there was blood on Stefano's bed and in the small bathroom already?
And on the light switch, as Number's recently reminded us again...

Any chance you have a few free minutes and can check for that missing video?

It'd be fun to point out that Dr. Steffy is lying, again.
:)
Click to expand...

Hi RWVBWL.

I honestly don't remember if that footage was ever available. I no longer research this case. It's over. I have moved on to other cases, as many others have. I know it may be shocking to the pro-guilt crowd but many of us, including myself, Steve Moore, Judge Heavey, and Ron Hendry, to name a few, are now working on other cases. I know some were led to believe that we were just infatuated with Amanda. They were wrong. We are now focused on others like Jeff Havard and Christopher Tapp. Jeff is a handsome guy but that has nothing to do with my interest in his case. :)

Members of our group do continue to archive information on the Knox/Sollecito case. It's a great case to learn from when researching wrongful convictions. If you post your questions on our forum, you may find what you are looking for. I won't post links here. I do not post here often and do not want look like I came here to advertise.
 
carbonjam72 said:
I get the frustration. In a way though, this is the flip side of the vixen-coin, who also wants discussion to cease, although coming from different/opposite points of view.

No judgements on my end. Just saying...
Click to expand...

No one outside of this discussion cares what Vixen thinks about this case. No one cares what anyone thinks anymore. The case is over now. These discussions are trapped in a vacuum with a dozen people. At one time, these conversations were great. I am a true believer that open conversation can often lead to the truth. This case was a bit unique. The remaining people are now deeply entrenched. You can all sit here and repeat yourselves over and over again until you are dead. No one else cares. This discussion was mentioned on our forum so I came and took a look. It is really odd to see the same discussion going on in an endless loop. Scroll back one year, two years, or three years. The conversation is the same.

And I really don't think Vixen is being sincere when she claims to want it all to end. Vixen loves the attention. This forum feeds Vixen what she craves.

I am really not here to mock anyone. Hell, I wasted time posting these few comments myself. So who am I to judge? :) I just wish people here were capable of directing their energy at current problems that need to be solved, instead of getting stuck in time. There are many others that are in need of help.
 
IMO the case will really be over when the calunia conviction is overturned by the ECHR and the final motivation report is out. I do mostly agree that topics such as the downstairs crime scene, the semen stain, and the knife wounds, based on the limited evidence available, probably reached the limit of fruitful discussion in 2011, give or take a year. It reminds me of that scene in the Simpsons where Homer is looking at an ad that just says "Gabbo is coming!" and he's studying it real intently trying to figure it out until Lisa points out, "I don't think they're giving you enough information dad."
 
Bruce Fischer said:
No one outside of this discussion cares what Vixen thinks about this case. No one cares what anyone thinks anymore. The case is over now. These discussions are trapped in a vacuum with a dozen people. At one time, these conversations were great. I am a true believer that open conversation can often lead to the truth. This case was a bit unique. The remaining people are now deeply entrenched. You can all sit here and repeat yourselves over and over again until you are dead. No one else cares. This discussion was mentioned on our forum so I came and took a look. It is really odd to see the same discussion going on in an endless loop. Scroll back one year, two years, or three years. The conversation is the same.

And I really don't think Vixen is being sincere when she claims to want it all to end. Vixen loves the attention. This forum feeds Vixen what she craves.

I am really not here to mock anyone. Hell, I wasted time posting these few comments myself. So who am I to judge? :) I just wish people here were capable of directing their energy at current problems that need to be solved, instead of getting stuck in time. There are many others that are in need of help.
Click to expand...

I don't think Vixen ever said she wanted conversation to stop, that's just how I read her. And not so much 'stop conversation', as interrupting the constant reaffirmation of innocence on these threads, which seems to drive her and others bonkers. So I don't think we're disagreeing there.

Your point about falling into an infinite loop is well taken, for myself, and I must say for many others I can see as well. I think I'm nearing the end of my wash cycle. Though I am looking forward to the motivation report, and I trust that in time, the calunnia conviction will eventually be turned back at ECHR, and Italy will eventually vacate it.

Last point, that many others need help, can't be repeated often enough. That's just the general in you marshaling the resources. I'm still trying to think about how I fit in, what I can do. If you have ideas on how people can help, then by all means do share. I still need to think it through, just speaking for myself.
 
Bruce Fischer said:
No one outside of this discussion cares what Vixen thinks about this case. No one cares what anyone thinks anymore. The case is over now. These discussions are trapped in a vacuum with a dozen people. At one time, these conversations were great. I am a true believer that open conversation can often lead to the truth. This case was a bit unique. The remaining people are now deeply entrenched. You can all sit here and repeat yourselves over and over again until you are dead. No one else cares. This discussion was mentioned on our forum so I came and took a look. It is really odd to see the same discussion going on in an endless loop. Scroll back one year, two years, or three years. The conversation is the same.

And I really don't think Vixen is being sincere when she claims to want it all to end. Vixen loves the attention. This forum feeds Vixen what she craves.

I am really not here to mock anyone. Hell, I wasted time posting these few comments myself. So who am I to judge? I just wish people here were capable of directing their energy at current problems that need to be solved, instead of getting stuck in time. There are many others that are in need of help.
Click to expand...

carbonjam72 said:
I don't think Vixen ever said she wanted conversation to stop, that's just how I read her. And not so much 'stop conversation', as interrupting the constant reaffirmation of innocence on these threads, which seems to drive her and others bonkers. So I don't think we're disagreeing there.

Your point about falling into an infinite loop is well taken, for myself, and I must say for many others I can see as well. I think I'm nearing the end of my wash cycle. Though I am looking forward to the motivation report, and I trust that in time, the calunnia conviction will eventually be turned back at ECHR, and Italy will eventually vacate it.

Last point, that many others need help, can't be repeated often enough. That's just the general in you marshaling the resources. I'm still trying to think about how I fit in, what I can do. If you have ideas on how people can help, then by all means do share. I still need to think it through, just speaking for myself.
Click to expand...

It's hard to know how to argue with the highlighted bit above. It's not a slight against Vixen as it is a comment on us all - there are few left any more who haven't got on with other things.

There still are a few puzzles - which even if they don't sort themselves out with the coming motivations report, are way, way down the food chain compared to the issues generated by the truly bizarre Mignini/Comodi case, Massei & Nencini motivations reports. We've all been around that merry-go-round dozens of times - if it were not for the 2013 ISC reversals, this thread would have long since died.

The problem with engaging other cases of wrongful prosecution/conviction is that this one generated so much content (see Massei, Nencini, Mignini/Comodi, not to mention bizarre websites which generated more heat than light). Other cases appear more straightforward, really - one case in the States perhaps rises to the level of bizarreness when it was revealed that the prosecutor and lead investigator of a wrongful conviction were having a secret love affair.

Neil Bantleman has just been released from an Indonesian prison. Strangely, the same court which convicted him criminally last year, threw out last week a civil suit for lack of evidence. Someone in Indonesia paid attention to that "anomaly" and suggested Bantleman be let go!

Still, other than simply re-linking to news reports, even in the Bantleman case there's really nothing to argue about. He either did the offence, or he didn't. It appears he didn't, so after a year rotting in an Indonesian prison, he's now free.

There may not be another case which can match the evil which Mignini hath wrought. What other case has the sheer volume of judicially generated evidence, and which is based almost solely on judicial truths, with precious little, if any, actual evidence (as per these threads here)?
 
The trouble is that there are plenty of other innocent people currently incarcerated for crimes that they most likely did not commit.
 
Bruce Fischer said:
No one outside of this discussion cares what Vixen thinks about this case. No one cares what anyone thinks anymore. The case is over now. These discussions are trapped in a vacuum with a dozen people. At one time, these conversations were great. I am a true believer that open conversation can often lead to the truth. This case was a bit unique. The remaining people are now deeply entrenched. You can all sit here and repeat yourselves over and over again until you are dead. No one else cares. This discussion was mentioned on our forum so I came and took a look. It is really odd to see the same discussion going on in an endless loop. Scroll back one year, two years, or three years. The conversation is the same.

And I really don't think Vixen is being sincere when she claims to want it all to end. Vixen loves the attention. This forum feeds Vixen what she craves.

I am really not here to mock anyone. Hell, I wasted time posting these few comments myself. So who am I to judge? :) I just wish people here were capable of directing their energy at current problems that need to be solved, instead of getting stuck in time. There are many others that are in need of help.
Click to expand...

I agree that some of the discussions are fruitless and repeated. However, there is a motivations report to come, an ECHR case to decide and possible further ECHR applications to follow. Aside from that, the possibility remains of an inquiry into the handling of the case by the Italian government. And on top of that, there are numerous other pieces of on going litigation.

It may well be that the fall out from all this will be an extraordinary realignment of Italian justice - a welcome result. Indeed, the current ECHR case could prove to be a landmark judgement with regard to the development of procedural rights across all member states.
 
Vixen said:
Copying and pasting your replies so that one response "fits all" might work on a forum.

In a court of law, evidence has to be tested.

In the real world (wake up Mr Tesla!) it was given - as in the scientific meaning of the word - there were at least three perpetrators. QED:: Of course in La-la land, anything goes!

(ETA Soz, Kauffer, not AC.)
Click to expand...

So tell us Vixen. Why did the police stop looking for a 4th, 5th or 6th perpetrator? Did they get tired....or did the semen testing budget run dry?
 
Kauffer said:
I agree that some of the discussions are fruitless and repeated. However, there is a motivations report to come, an ECHR case to decide and possible further ECHR applications to follow. Aside from that, the possibility remains of an inquiry into the handling of the case by the Italian government. And on top of that, there are numerous other pieces of on going litigation.

It may well be that the fall out from all this will be an extraordinary realignment of Italian justice - a welcome result. Indeed, the current ECHR case could prove to be a landmark judgement with regard to the development of procedural rights across all member states.
Click to expand...

One concern this case raised for me is should the U.S. have an extradition treaty with Italy. Is the Italian judicial system sufficiently adequate that the U.S. should enter into a broad extradition arrangement? Bruce Fisher may have a view about this.
 
Kauffer said:
I agree that some of the discussions are fruitless and repeated. However, there is a motivations report to come, an ECHR case to decide and possible further ECHR applications to follow. Aside from that, the possibility remains of an inquiry into the handling of the case by the Italian government. And on top of that, there are numerous other pieces of on going litigation.

It may well be that the fall out from all this will be an extraordinary realignment of Italian justice - a welcome result. Indeed, the current ECHR case could prove to be a landmark judgement with regard to the development of procedural rights across all member states.
Click to expand...

In other words, people are trying really really hard to hang on. It matters to no one if Amanda remains convicted for slander. Nothing will ever come of it no matter what happens any time in the future. There are no other pieces of ongoing litigation to bother following. The idiotic lawsuits will all expire just like the slander suit against Curt and Edda already has.

There is no logical reason to continue debating this case on a daily basis and many some the few that remain look pathetic while doing it. It's their lives, not mine. I would just love to see that energy being used for something good.

If ECHR does step in and take action then it will be newsworthy at that time. I doubt anything beyond Amanda's case would come of it. It would be nice to see a ruling come that can work to improve the overall system but I am not overly optimistic. If it comes up, then I have no doubt that people will discuss it at that time. People should be learning from this case so they can better prepare to help others. That is where discussion can be productive.

But hey, no one is stopping anyone from continuing on the merry go round. I am much more interested in the Lincoln assassination. Would a bullet proof hat have saved him? Did the Pope really order the hit? If Lincoln was shorter, would he still be alive today? Not likely, but nothing would surprise me at this point! The possibilities are endless.
 
Strozzi said:
One concern this case raised for me is should the U.S. have an extradition treaty with Italy. Is the Italian judicial system sufficiently adequate that the U.S. should enter into a broad extradition arrangement? Bruce Fisher may have a view about this.
Click to expand...

Italy is our ally. So I see no issue with having an extradition treaty. The United States has a laundry list of issues to deal with in our justice system as well. Italy could very well ask the same question of us. Most extraditions are pretty straight forward. Others require negotiations and respect for each other's laws. Things are not always written in stone like some would like to believe.
 
Bill Williams said:
It's hard to know how to argue with the highlighted bit above. It's not a slight against Vixen as it is a comment on us all - there are few left any more who haven't got on with other things.

There still are a few puzzles - which even if they don't sort themselves out with the coming motivations report, are way, way down the food chain compared to the issues generated by the truly bizarre Mignini/Comodi case, Massei & Nencini motivations reports. We've all been around that merry-go-round dozens of times - if it were not for the 2013 ISC reversals, this thread would have long since died.

The problem with engaging other cases of wrongful prosecution/conviction is that this one generated so much content (see Massei, Nencini, Mignini/Comodi, not to mention bizarre websites which generated more heat than light). Other cases appear more straightforward, really - one case in the States perhaps rises to the level of bizarreness when it was revealed that the prosecutor and lead investigator of a wrongful conviction were having a secret love affair.

Neil Bantleman has just been released from an Indonesian prison. Strangely, the same court which convicted him criminally last year, threw out last week a civil suit for lack of evidence. Someone in Indonesia paid attention to that "anomaly" and suggested Bantleman be let go!

Still, other than simply re-linking to news reports, even in the Bantleman case there's really nothing to argue about. He either did the offence, or he didn't. It appears he didn't, so after a year rotting in an Indonesian prison, he's now free.

There may not be another case which can match the evil which Mignini hath wrought. What other case has the sheer volume of judicially generated evidence, and which is based almost solely on judicial truths, with precious little, if any, actual evidence (as per these threads here)?
Click to expand...

Isn't that a great reason to speak out? Many cases are very straightforward, yet people suffer in prison for decades before mistakes are corrected. We should not need guilters and "bizarre websites" to cause us to become angry about injustice. Innocent people currently need help..
 
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