Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Numbers]

For me, this is the probable situation and a possible explanation for the miscellaneous suppression of evidence against Guede. Mignini didn't want additional evidence against Guede for various reasons.
1. It could be used to suggest that the prosecution of Guede was poorly done and if the facts were known, it would look like Mignini gave a horrible killer of the most despicable kind a better deal than he deserved.
2. There may have been something of a quid pro quo between Mignini and Guede's lawyer to limit further incriminating evidence against Guede in return for Guede's cooperation against AK/RS.

I am not so sure that there isn't an innocent explanation for the semen. Guede might have claimed that he ejaculated after oral sex. I don't know how this would play into the theorizing above. Mostly I think people have gone about as far as possible with the available facts. In the end, what went on here is unknowable to the general public. It is greatly against the interest of everybody involved to reveal the truth about what went on and they are the only people that know. I think this is a conspiracy that could be limited to Mignini, Comodi, Stefanoni and a few judges and perhaps some police officials that went along with it.

I believe the problem with Guede adopting the highlighted statement in his story is that he claimed that his sexual activity with Meredith occurred in the living room, while the pillow with the putative semen stains was in the bedroom under Meredith's body. Also, there is a shoe print in one of the presumed semen stains on the pillow with the imprint of a shoe sole consistent with Guede's. And I will not speculate on the maneuvers Guede may have used to position the pillow under Meredith and also get his shoe print on the pillow.

 

[carbonjam72]

Strozzi may well be right about this. Guede might not have remembered much at all, though his story about the condoms is clearly false - we know that Kercher knew where Amanda's condoms were. He may even have convinced himself of the truth of his own story - invented a fantasy which he genuinely believed. I doubt that Guede is a calculating genius. Certainly the act of masturbating over a bleeding, dying girl he's just brutally stabbed is the product of an extraordinary perversity and there is no guarantee that he retained an awareness of it. Alternatively, it is not a stretch to imagine that Guede would instinctively recoil in any case from admitting he ejaculated, whether he remembered it or not. If he did remember it, he would likely have believed it to be incriminating.

And this is assuming that Rudy was in his Rudy persona, and not the "dog" or "the professor" that evening.

 

[Grinder]

I believe the problem with Guede adopting the highlighted statement in his story is that he claimed that his sexual activity with Meredith occurred in the living room, while the pillow with the putative semen stains was in the bedroom under Meredith's body. Also, there is a shoe print in one of the presumed semen stains on the pillow with the imprint of a shoe sole consistent with Guede's. And I will not speculate on the maneuvers Guede may have used to position the pillow under Meredith and also get his shoe print on the pillow.

You think he could have made up a story about fooling around in the bedroom as well? Of course he could have.

 

[Numbers]

Why would they describe it as "apparent blood" if it had been tested for blood and came back positive?

Do you have an idea how the blood got on his socks?

If the theory here is that the blood at Rudi's was suppressed doesn't this presentation prove otherwise? When was this PP made public?

Regarding the highlighted sentence, I believe Guede murdered Meredith Kercher by stabbing her throat with a knife several times. There would have been considerable blood spray resulting from those knife attacks. That blood would certainly have sprayed onto Guede and his clothing.

Another possibility is that the blood is Guede's and results from the cuts on his hand. A third possibility is that the blood is a mixtue of Guede's and Kercher's.

In any case, he apparently did not wash the blood from his belt and socks.

 

[Ken Dine]

Rudi may not have remembered in his violent attack what he did moment by moment. He may not have remembered a week later that he left semen and might have to account for it. He certainly did not remember at the time that he left his sample in the toilet, or he would have flushed before leaving the cottage. People engaging in grotesque crimes may not be completely aware of what they did in the frenzy of the moment.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Guede's memories of that night likely are far from clear.

As for Filomena's bathroom which Guede had also used that night, interestingly I read in the below UK article that Guede may have left some blood on a tissue that they found in Filomena's bathroom.

I realize that most UK papers are next to worthless when it comes to reporting the facts, but that Guede may have left some of his own blood behind on the tissue does make sense.

Of course, the article doesn't say whether it's Meredith's blood or Guede's blood that had made the fingerprints, but it's doubtful that a usable fingerprint would be left behind on both items, so likely the police had used DNA on the bloody prints to exclude the other suspects:

Experts re-examine Meredith Kercher's body

By Malcolm Moore in Rome
12:01AM GMT 17 Nov 2007

[ ]

Meanwhile, police have stepped up their hunt for a fourth person in connection with the crime, after forensic analysis in Rome discovered DNA traces on Miss Kercher's body that do not belong to any of the three current suspects.

The traces matched the DNA from some faeces left in the toilet at the crime scene, confirming to police that another man was in the house at the time of the murder.

In addition, there is a bloody fingerprint on a cushion in the flat that does not come from the three suspects, but which matches a bloody fingerprint on a scrap of toilet paper found by police in the bathroom.

Amanda Knox, 20, from Seattle, her boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, 23, and Patrick Diya Lumumba, 37, are being held in a prison near Perugia on suspicion of sexual assault and murder.

Police believe that Miss Kercher was forced to have sex at knifepoint before being killed.

Investigators are now combing through Perugia's North African community and are working on the hypothesis that the fourth person could have been a drug dealer who supplied Knox and Sollecito with their hashish.

A man described as a "North African musician[" was captured on a security camera leaving the scene of the crime at around the time of the murder.

Knox and Sollecito remain the prime suspects in the crime, however, after an eight-inch kitchen knife at Sollecito's house was found to have traces of Miss Kercher's DNA at its tip. Police said it also allegedly had traces of Knox's DNA near the handle.

The knife was found together with a bloody sponge and dishcloth, and had been bleached clean, said the police.

Investigators have also confiscated Knox's handbag from her in prison, in the belief that she may have used it to transport the knife to and from the scene of the crime. If she is found to have carried the knife to the house, the prosecution may push for a charge of premeditated murder.
[ ]

MORE:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569667/Experts-re-examine-Meredith-Kerchers-body.html

It's interesting that they were describing Guede as a "North African musician" at that late date when, actually, Lumumba was the musician, so the UK press likely were confusing early police reports of Lumumba with Guede.

It's also interesting that Guede and Lumumba were both being described as "North Africans" when they both were sub-Saharan Africans?

The above article also claims that the police had CCTV footage of Guede leaving the cottage after the murder, which would have been time-stamped.

Reporters who viewed that footage said the police had scrubbed the time-stamp from the video showing Guede walking away from the cottage, likely since the time-stamp would be exculpatory for Amanda & Raffaele.

 

[davefoc]

...

The above article also claims that the police had CCTV footage of Guede leaving the cottage after the murder, which would have been time-stamped.

Reporters who viewed that footage said the police had scrubbed the time-stamp from the video showing Guede walking away from the cottage, likely since the time-stamp would be exculpatory for Amanda & Raffaele.

This is a bit difficult to believe (davefoc attempts Grinder mode). The problem is that the information is of such major significance that it seems like it would have been a significant part of the defense case. And at the very least it would have been a major fact in the pro innocence discussions. It also comes very close to a smoking gun for a conspiracy to suppress evidence that supported the defense case.

How strong is the evidence for the existence of this video and what do the pro-guilt people have to say about it?

 

[Ken Dine]

Regarding the highlighted sentence, I believe Guede murdered Meredith Kercher by stabbing her throat with a knife several times. There would have been considerable blood spray resulting from those knife attacks. That blood would certainly have sprayed onto Guede and his clothing.

Another possibility is that the blood is Guede's and results from the cuts on his hand. A third possibility is that the blood is a mixtue of Guede's and Kercher's.

In any case, he apparently did not wash the blood from his belt and socks.

Personally, I feel Guede's initial attack when he stabbed Meredith was done from behind, as evidenced by the unimpeded blood spray patterns on her bedroom walls and closet.

At some point Guede apparently did place Meredith on her back (and on the pillow) while she was still alive since Meredith had also aspirated blood onto her chest and bra, but at that point she was near death, so her aspirated blood likely wasn't spraying as far as it had done during the initial attack, so very little blood was probably sprayed onto Guede from Meredith's aspirations. Maybe some, but likely not a lot.

During his rape, Guede could have also used a towel over Meredith's neck to lessen any blood spray while she was dying.

Guede obviously had removed his socks and shoes at some point (hence, the blue bathmat), so Meredith's blood may have transferred to those items if Guede had not been careful where he placed them in that bloody mess.

 

[Grinder]

This is a bit difficult to believe (davefoc attempts Grinder mode). The problem is that the information is of such major significance that it seems like it would have been a significant part of the defense case. And at the very least it would have been a major fact in the pro innocence discussions. It also comes as close to a smoking gun of a conspiracy to suppress evidence that supported the defense case.

How strong is the evidence for the existence of this video and what do the pro-guilt people have to say about it?

You're coming along nicely.

The article is trash and not worth spit.

Knox and Sollecito remain the prime suspects in the crime, however, after an eight-inch kitchen knife at Sollecito's house was found to have traces of Miss Kercher's DNA at its tip. Police said it also allegedly had traces of Knox's DNA near the handle.

The knife was found together with a bloody sponge and dishcloth, and had been bleached clean, said the police.

 

[Ken Dine]

This is a bit difficult to believe (davefoc attempts Grinder mode). The problem is that the information is of such major significance that it seems like it would have been a significant part of the defense case. And at the very least it would have been a major fact in the pro innocence discussions. It also comes as close to a smoking gun of a conspiracy to suppress evidence that supported the defense case.

How strong is the evidence for the existence of this video and what do the pro-guilt people have to say about it?

There were several security cams (4 or 5?) in the parking garage, and as can be expected, the police also checked out many other security cams between Raffaele's apartment and the cottage.

When the defense asked to see the footage that the police had gathered, the police apparently said they had tossed it since nothing of interest was found.

The fact that only a few clips from all of those security cams was ever released to either the defense or public, that is all the proof that I have that the police had buried most of it.

Obviously, lots of security cam footage of that night, with none of it showing Amanda & Raffaele out and about that night (only Guede), that footage might not be of much interest to the prosecution, but it would be of interest to the defense.

Don't ask me to explain how the police & prosecution got away with burying scads of exculpatory evidence, but the Italian legal system obviously had allowed them to do it with impunity.

 

[Grinder]

Regarding the highlighted sentence, I believe Guede murdered Meredith Kercher by stabbing her throat with a knife several times. There would have been considerable blood spray resulting from those knife attacks. That blood would certainly have sprayed onto Guede and his clothing.

Another possibility is that the blood is Guede's and results from the cuts on his hand. A third possibility is that the blood is a mixtue of Guede's and Kercher's.

In any case, he apparently did not wash the blood from his belt and socks.

I thought you said all the "apparent blood" at Rudi's only had his DNA. If his hands were bleeding so much that he needed socks to staunch the wounds it makes going out even less likely.

The other sites for the "blood" wouldn't be easily noticed but you'd think he would have deposed of the socks.

Did I miss your reply about the fact that Stef made the find public?

 

[Numbers]

I thought you said all the "apparent blood" at Rudi's only had his DNA. If his hands were bleeding so much that he needed socks to staunch the wounds it makes going out even less likely.

The other sites for the "blood" wouldn't be easily noticed but you'd think he would have deposed of the socks.

Did I miss your reply about the fact that Stef made the find public?

Grinder,
Your post is now deviating from good sense.

I have directed you to the AmandaKnoxCase site with the summarized data from Stefanoni. I have not done any forensic work on this case (or any other); that was done by Stefanoni. Neither have I created the summary that I have directed you to.

Your post is confused between what may be the reality and what has been reported by Stefanoni. The summary only is as accurate and complete as Stefanoni's reporting.

Indeed, Stefanoni and the prosecution disclosed certain information to the defense, and suppressed other information. My assumption is that the AKC site includes information that the defense was given or was otherwise made public. That site discloses the sources of its information.

Again, your question about Stefanoni has been discussed on ISF and other sites and objective persons agree that Stefanoni selectively disclosed data, and her testimony deviated from her records in a number of cases.
The selective disclosure would be considered a violation of "equality of arms" in ECHR terms, or a Brady violation in the United States. The deviation of witness testimony from the official records of that witness may be considered "perjury" in the United States.

 

[Diocletus]

Why couldn't he have said that they were fooling around and Meredith was touching him and he became aroused. She went to look for one of Amanda's condoms and he had an ejaculation while she was gone while lying on the bed or if he knew it was the pillow say the pillow.

Semen isn't a murder weapon.

Not believable. His semen was found right between the legs of a dead girl, so obviously the "fooling around" occurred when she was dead or dying.

Semen isn't usually a murder weapon, but it is indicative of sexual assault and murder (since were talking about a rape/murder).

 

[Diocletus]

I thought you said all the "apparent blood" at Rudi's only had his DNA. If his hands were bleeding so much that he needed socks to staunch the wounds it makes going out even less likely.

The other sites for the "blood" wouldn't be easily noticed but you'd think he would have deposed of the socks.

Did I miss your reply about the fact that Stef made the find public?

I'm sure it says "apparent blood" because the methods that stefanoni used to detect blood aren't definite and she never did confirmatory tests.

Why would he depose his socks? Do you think they might spill the beans?

 

[davefoc]

There were several security cams (4 or 5?) in the parking garage, and as can be expected, the police also checked out many other security cams between Raffaele's apartment and the cottage.

When the defense asked to see the footage that the police had gathered, the police apparently said they had tossed it since nothing of interest was found.

The fact that only a few clips from all of those security cams was ever released to either the defense or public, that is all the proof that I have that the police had buried most of it.

Obviously, lots of security cam footage of that night, with none of it showing Amanda & Raffaele out and about that night (only Guede), that footage might not be of much interest to the prosecution, but it would be of interest to the defense.

Don't ask me to explain how the police & prosecution got away with burying scads of exculpatory evidence, but the Italian legal system obviously had allowed them to do it with impunity.

There seems to be all this evidence that active purposeful suppression of evidence was going on. It is hard to come up with an innocent explanation for it, but for me it stops short of conclusive. Lots of evidence, but no smoking gun. Somebody in the inner circle needs to talk. Without that there just seems to be a lot of evidence that fits with the overall situation that two innocent people were prosecuted, but I'm concerned that I'm interpreting evidence to fit my confirmation biases. In lieu of somebody talking in the inner circle, an independent investigation would be nice, but that seems just about as doubtful as the idea that somebody in the inner circle is going to talk. But there probably is a large financial incentive for somebody to talk in that the first one to do so could get a really cushy book deal. On the other hand, if you look at what happened to Hellman it seems like the system can make it pretty hard on the people that aren't judged to be loyal.

 

[Grinder]

Grinder,
Your post is now deviating from good sense.

I have directed you to the AmandaKnoxCase site with the summarized data from Stefanoni. I have not done any forensic work on this case (or any other); that was done by Stefanoni. Neither have I created the summary that I have directed you to.

Your post is confused between what may be the reality and what has been reported by Stefanoni. The summary only is as accurate and complete as Stefanoni's reporting.

Indeed, Stefanoni and the prosecution disclosed certain information to the defense, and suppressed other information. My assumption is that the AKC site includes information that the defense was given or was otherwise made public. That site discloses the sources of its information.

Again, your question about Stefanoni has been discussed on ISF and other sites and objective persons agree that Stefanoni selectively disclosed data, and her testimony deviated from her records in a number of cases.
The selective disclosure would be considered a violation of "equality of arms" in ECHR terms, or a Brady violation in the United States. The deviation of witness testimony from the official records of that witness may be considered "perjury" in the United States.

I don't read Italian but the link that you refer to is the PP done by Steffi so she disclosed all the "blood" you referred to, correct?

I'm glad that you know who is and who is not objective. I don't give a hoot about your obsession with ECHR.

 

[Grinder]

I'm sure it says "apparent blood" because the methods that stefanoni used to detect blood aren't definite and she never did confirmatory tests.

Why would he depose his socks? Do you think they might spill the beans?

Just as with the blood found of Amanda's at her place and Raf's, Rudi's blood if found at his place doesn't mean much. Rudi didn't leave for Germany that night and did dispose of other evidence. I doubt he could be sure that the "blood" on the socks wasn't partly Meredith's and even if he was sure it was his from the cuts he received that night, he would have wanted to get rid of those as well.

Perhaps he was careless doing handy work as some are prone to do and cut himself working on his plentiful supply of computers.

Anyway, I would like to understand exactly what was found at Rudi's and whether or not his own blood was found in ways that could only be explained by the cut hands.

 

[Diocletus]

Perhaps he was careless doing handy work as some are prone to do and cut himself working on his plentiful supply of computers.

Nope. He got his cuts at the cottage.

 

[Grinder]

Not believable. His semen was found right between the legs of a dead girl, so obviously the "fooling around" occurred when she was dead or dying.

Semen isn't usually a murder weapon, but it is indicative of sexual assault and murder (since were talking about a rape/murder).

Ahh why couldn't he have left it there on the pillow and the murderer moved it. I'm sure no one reported that shoe prints were found having stepped in it and I doubt he would have remembered that.

Semen being indicative, all the more reason for him to concoct a story.

 

[Grinder]

Nope. He got his cuts at the cottage.

Nope. Working on his computers.

 

[Numbers]

I don't read Italian but the link that you refer to is the PP done by Steffi so she disclosed all the "blood" you referred to, correct?

I'm glad that you know who is and who is not objective. I don't give a hoot about your obsession with ECHR.

1. The site http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/guede-dna-investigation/ indicates in the text that the results described in it are from Stefanoni and her lab, and derived from her reports. Thus, the results were disclosed by her, but inferences of nondisclosed results may be drawn. For example, for Guede's towel, 00when she lists items and provides DNA profiles, but does not include the quantification, that is a clear case of suppression. In other cases, such as for Guede's loose fit jeans, DNA profiles from some samples are provided, but one is missing; the reason for the missing data, and the data itself, are unknown to the public. Possibly a profile of Kercher has been suppressed, or possibly the data was lost or not interpretable. Similarly, no DNA profiles were provided by Stefanoni for the "apparent" blood on Guede's socks or his belt. But no reason was apparently supplied for the lacunae.

Failure to identify the reason(s) for missing data in the lab report of a forensic investigation in a murder/rape case can hardly reassure the defense of the fairness of the reporting. And I believe that is an objective statement.

2. You may express whatever feeling you wish about the ECHR. However, that is the supreme human rights court for Italy and the 46 other European states - members by treaty of the Council of Europe - that are bound to obey its final rulings. It is in some ways similar to the US Supreme Court, although its rulings filter down to the European states less directly than do SCOTUS rulings to the US states.