Was Captain Kirk A Republican?

[Beerina]

Food via replicator is awesome, and in the future, energy needs have been met, at least such that day-to-day consumption is vanishingly small, compared to whatever else society is up to, like travelling between planets and stars.

Now Voyager suggests replicators are fairly power-hungry, and at times banned their use for food when they struggled to find sources of antimatter. So that, and teleportation to Paris for lunch, may not be of completely trivial cost even in the future.

 

[theprestige]

Food via replicator is awesome, and in the future, energy needs have been met, at least such that day-to-day consumption is vanishingly small, compared to whatever else society is up to, like travelling between planets and stars.

Now Voyager suggests replicators are fairly power-hungry, and at times banned their use for food when they struggled to find sources of antimatter. So that, and teleportation to Paris for lunch, may not be of completely trivial cost even in the future.

Voyager was entirely cut off from the Federation. Antimatter supply may be an issue in the far reaches of the galaxy, remote from any production and distribution infrastructure. I imagine that on Earth, at the heart of human civilization, antimatter costs are fairly negligible, and teleporting to Paris for lunch would be well within a child's budget, assuming their parents even bothered to give them an allowance to cover such trivial costs.

I mean, a barrel of oil would be stupid expensive on the Moon, but it's still ridiculously cheap in Saudi Arabia.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Maybe he got James Tiberius Kirk confused with Denny Crane....

 

[Myron Proudfoot]

he's from Iowa, so whichever party he'd support, he votes for farm subsidies.

 

[Beerina]

he's from Iowa, so whichever party he'd support, he votes for farm subsidies.

Which will still be around. Imagine how much that will be to keep farmers with a price support vs. replicators!

"Last July, the government bought 600 quintillion quatloos worth of corn to keep bushels at 1/100th bar of latinum.."

 

[Myron Proudfoot]

Which will still be around. Imagine how much that will be to keep farmers with a price support vs. replicators!

"Last July, the government bought 600 quintillion quatloos worth of corn to keep bushels at 1/100th bar of latinum.."

ahem, "gold-plated latinum" and the crop was Quadrotriticale

 

[Ladewig]

ahem, "gold-plated latinum" and the crop was Quadrotriticale

Ahem, gold-pressed latinum.

But kudos to Beerina for asserting that "bushels" will still be used hundreds of years in the future. America does hate that metric *****.

 

[ChristianProgressive]

Star Trek is incoherent on this point. At times characters have claimed it's post-scarcity, post-money. But they never give any real details, so it's very much a Deus Ex Machina sort of appeal whenever it's made. And the idea frequently gets abandoned for narrative purposes, because frankly you can't make interesting stories about post-scarcity, but it's easy to make interesting stories out of scarcity of one sort or another.

The take-home message is that Star Trek just doesn't want to address economics. Which is fine, a TV show doesn't need to be about everything, but they should abandon the post-scarcity pretense completely.

Under normal circumstances, the Federation is a post-scarcity economy. Abundant energy and molecular fabrication technologies make it possible to provide for the needs of the populace at near-zero cost.

Were there cases where the system would break down? Yes, such as what happened on Tarsus IV when Kirk was a boy (Conscience of the King). Also, not ever area of the galaxy was as developed, which was why sometimes you saw things like grain shipments being considered strategically valuable assets (The Trouble with Tribbles) and the presence of "agricultural colonies" (This Side of Paradise). The 23rd century was functionally post-scarcity in developed areas.

By the 24th century, the evolution from relatively primitive molecular fabricators and protein synthesizers to transporter-based replicators allowed even colonies to have a relatively extensive support structure even in less-developed areas within the Federation(TNG: Preemptive Strike, among others). The only serious problem they faced was when they interacted with economies that still functioned on the scarcity model (DS9: In the Cards)

 

[ChristianProgressive]

Voyager was entirely cut off from the Federation. Antimatter supply may be an issue in the far reaches of the galaxy, remote from any production and distribution infrastructure. I imagine that on Earth, at the heart of human civilization, antimatter costs are fairly negligible, and teleporting to Paris for lunch would be well within a child's budget, assuming their parents even bothered to give them an allowance to cover such trivial costs.

Actually, most planetary power would be provided by fusion generators (either central or individual, TNG's "The Survivors" includes a mention of a household fusion generator), probably with solar/wind/wave backup. M/ARs are used for highly energy intensive purposes like spaceship propulsion at warp.

ahem, "gold-plated latinum" and the crop was Quadrotriticale

and "quatloos" are not a unit of volume or weight. They're a non-Federation currency used only on the planet Triskellion.

The Federation unit of currency is the credit.

 

[Ziggurat]

Under normal circumstances, the Federation is a post-scarcity economy. Abundant energy and molecular fabrication technologies make it possible to provide for the needs of the populace at near-zero cost.

You seem confused about what the term "scarcity" means in economics. It doesn't mean that some people don't have all their basic needs met.

The only serious problem they faced was when they interacted with economies that still functioned on the scarcity model (DS9: In the Cards)

The federation isn't post-scarcity. It's just incredibly wealthy. There's no such thing as an economy if you're truly post-scarcity, because economics is all about how to allocate scarce resources between alternative uses, and if you're truly post-scarcity, that's no longer a question. You use as much of whatever you want, for whatever you want, because there's no limits. And so does everyone else. Economy plays no role anymore under such conditions.

Of course, the idea of reaching post-scarcity is basically unphysical. There are no limitless sources of energy, and the limits on energy ultimately limit everything else as well.

 

[Ladewig]

You seem confused about what the term "scarcity" means in economics. It doesn't mean that some people don't have all their basic needs met.



The federation isn't post-scarcity. It's just incredibly wealthy. There's no such thing as an economy if you're truly post-scarcity, because economics is all about how to allocate scarce resources between alternative uses, and if you're truly post-scarcity, that's no longer a question. You use as much of whatever you want, for whatever you want, because there's no limits. And so does everyone else. Economy plays no role anymore under such conditions.

Of course, the idea of reaching post-scarcity is basically unphysical. There are no limitless sources of energy, and the limits on energy ultimately limit everything else as well.

By TNG-era, Earth has enough energy to control the weather. That plus the ability to turn energy into any substance (with a handful of exceptions) pretty much puts the planet into the category of post scarcity society. They, in fact, brag that money is no longer used.

 

[Mudcat]

Which Kirk? The original series Kirk, the more swaggering version of Andy Griffith? The original movie series Kirk, the peace maker? Or the reboot movie series Kirk, the total douche bag?

 

[Ziggurat]

By TNG-era, Earth has enough energy to control the weather. That plus the ability to turn energy into any substance (with a handful of exceptions) pretty much puts the planet into the category of post scarcity society. They, in fact, brag that money is no longer used.

First off, the whole "no money" thing is just hand waving. How does society function without money? I'm not saying it can't be done, but the details matter, and Star Trek has no answers. People clearly have jobs, but without money, why? Why the hell would anyone become a redshirt if they weren't getting paid?

Plus, again, incredibly wealthy doesn't mean post-scarcity. Want a concrete example? The number of star ships is limited. Not everybody can have their own Enterprise. I bet real estate on Earth is still plenty scarce too.

 

[Myron Proudfoot]

Ahem, gold-pressed latinum.

But kudos to Beerina for asserting that "bushels" will still be used hundreds of years in the future. America does hate that metric *****.

damn, that's why my purchases of self-sealing stem bolts fell through.

 

[Seismosaurus]

Voyager was entirely cut off from the Federation. Antimatter supply may be an issue in the far reaches of the galaxy, remote from any production and distribution infrastructure.

Oddly, antimatter was one thing that they never once mentioned running out of. Although they did run out of deuterium at one point. Which is just kinda nuts.

I imagine that on Earth, at the heart of human civilization, antimatter costs are fairly negligible, and teleporting to Paris for lunch would be well within a child's budget, assuming their parents even bothered to give them an allowance to cover such trivial costs.

I mean, a barrel of oil would be stupid expensive on the Moon, but it's still ridiculously cheap in Saudi Arabia.

Antimatter powers ships. There's nothing to say it powers planets. It would be kind of stupid to do so actually, given antimatter power systems tend to blow up if you look at them crossly.

But maybe they are stupid. The real problem comes when you consider where antimatter is supposed to come from.

In the backstage materials, antimatter is creatted in a "charge reversal device". Put matter in, add lots of energy, matter turns into antimatter. If so, then antimatter is not a fuel source so much as it is the ultimate battery. Powering anything with it results in a net loss, because you have to use something other than antimatter to power the CRD and the energy used to make it is, surely, greater than the energy you can get from your antimatter.

Most likely the real basis of their energy generation is fusion power - it's a centuries old technology, we've seen fusion power plants on the order of suitcase sized, and they tend not to blow up (although they can). They'd be silly not to use it.

Of course, all that backstage material could be wrong. Maybe they discovered a massive antimatter asteroid and have been mining it ever since. That would actually be kind of cool.

 

[ChristianProgressive]

You seem confused about what the term "scarcity" means in economics. It doesn't mean that some people don't have all their basic needs met.

And the Federation meets their needs because they have effectively unlimited supplies of whatever they need for all but a few applications. Especially in the 24th century where they can literally take dirt and turn it directly into edible food (or anything else they need/want) with replicators.

Of course, the idea of reaching post-scarcity is basically unphysical. There are no limitless sources of energy, and the limits on energy ultimately limit everything else as well.

mathematical limits perhaps, but no effective limits once energy production technology advances past the point of critical mass.

 

[ChristianProgressive]

First off, the whole "no money" thing is just hand waving. How does society function without money? I'm not saying it can't be done, but the details matter, and Star Trek has no answers.

By which you mean having a medium of allocation? Yes, they do still have that. Either as a straight currency, or simply as a "ration" or "allotment" And those allotments are more than sufficient to cover ordinary living needs for the entire populace.

People clearly have jobs, but without money, why? Why the hell would anyone become a redshirt if they weren't getting paid?

For the challenge. For "honors" rendered from others. For their own increased sense of self-worth.

Plus, again, incredibly wealthy doesn't mean post-scarcity. Want a concrete example? The number of star ships is limited. Not everybody can have their own Enterprise.

Not everyone would need (or even want) to have their own Enterprise. They would have access to space transportation, however.

I bet real estate on Earth is still plenty scarce too.

But there are plenty of other planets to live on, so it really doesn't matter all that much.

 

[Ziggurat]

And the Federation meets their needs because they have effectively unlimited supplies of whatever they need for all but a few applications.

You keep using the word "need", but that word isn't actually relevant to the discussion. The relevant word is "want". And there's no reason to think that even the Federation can provide everything that everyone wants.

mathematical limits perhaps, but no effective limits once energy production technology advances past the point of critical mass.

No. This is pure nonsense. There is no "point of critical mass" for energy production. And you will note that the federation doesn't even have any Dyson spheres.

By which you mean having a medium of allocation? Yes, they do still have that. Either as a straight currency, or simply as a "ration" or "allotment" And those allotments are more than sufficient to cover ordinary living needs for the entire populace.

Again, "needs" isn't relevant here, "want" is. And you're basically saying that, even though the show says they got rid of money, they must be lying. And on that point I agree: there's no reason for them to get rid of money, unless they've become totalitarian, which supposedly they haven't.

For the challenge. For "honors" rendered from others. For their own increased sense of self-worth.

Ha! Yeah, right. When have you ever seen a redshirt receive honors? And why would being expendable cannon fodder increase your sense of self-worth?

Not everyone would need (or even want) to have their own Enterprise. They would have access to space transportation, however.

Again, need isn't relevant. And it doesn't matter if everyone wants one. The point is that if more people want one than have one, then it's scarce. And it's going to be scarce.

Look, I don't need a private jet plane. I can buy a ticket on a commercial airline to get wherever I want to go. But I want a private jet, because it's a hell of a lot nicer. I just can't afford it. Private jets are scarce, and the availability of commercial tickets doesn't make private jets non-scarce.

But there are plenty of other planets to live on, so it really doesn't matter all that much.

There's plenty of cheap land in North Dakota, so why are real estate prices so high in New York City?

 

[Ladewig]

It thought it was obvious: people become red shirts so they can have phasers!

Just kidding. I think there was a Voyager episode in which there was a very bright engineering peon with five degrees in cosmology. He explained that to get into the Federation's most prestigious cosmological institute, he needed a year of practical experience on a spaceship. He had no desire to be on a spaceship, but it was a necessary step to achieve his goal.

..............
I have now come around to Zigguart's viewpoint. Even if one can transport to any point on Earth as easily as one might catch a taxicab, there are still a finite number of apartments overlooking the Seine.

In DS9, Sisko's father works long hours in a hot kitchen creating non-replicated meals in his New Orlean's restaurant. If there is no medium of exchange then doing that for 40+ years as a labor of love requires an unfathomable level of devotion.

 

[Myron Proudfoot]

It thought it was obvious: people become red shirts so they can have phasers!

Just kidding. I think there was a Voyager episode in which there was a very bright engineering peon with five degrees in cosmology. He explained that to get into the Federation's most prestigious cosmological institute, he needed a year of practical experience on a spaceship. He had no desire to be on a spaceship, but it was a necessary step to achieve his goal.

..............
I have now come around to Zigguart's viewpoint. Even if one can transport to any point on Earth as easily as one might catch a taxicab, there are still a finite number of apartments overlooking the Seine.

In DS9, Sisko's father works long hours in a hot kitchen creating non-replicated meals in his New Orlean's restaurant. If there is no medium of exchange then doing that for 40+ years as a labor of love requires an unfathomable level of devotion.

Basic needs are met at well above substance levels, but beyond that you use credits perhaps.