Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

Status
Not open for further replies.
How Logical...

It's a fact.
A *fact*.

Two burglaries occurred at the cottage,
one through the corridoor french window,
the other from the kitchen window.
Both throught the balcony.
*fact*


So if it is very logical to break in here,
why would [SIZE="-7"]Raffaele[/SIZE] or Amanda break Filomena's window,
to stage a break in?

Why not break the kitchen window or the corridoor french window?
Heck, Miss Knox lived there, she shoulda known what woulda been a logical place
to break a window to make pretend there was a break in,
right?

Who but Rudy Guede would toss a rock,
like a basketball free throw,
at a window that he would then have to climb up and into?

Maybe the same dude who has done this before,
like a dude who was busted in another city with a laptop,
a laptop stolen from a 2nd story burglary
where the window was also smashed in with a large rock?
:confused:
RW


By the way, Machiavelli,
I am very sane.

Esh,
after spending sooo many hours looking at shadows in the still of the night,
all night long, looking for the dude who was vandalizin'
my sister + hubby's tires, well my thoughts a really very, very clear.


I mean,
come on,
who hears a horrible scream and then finds out about a terrible rape + murder
that occurred overnight, just across the parking lot and highway from your residence,
AND does not go + report this to the police that very day!!!

Great real, bro!

Was it a scream of HELP!!!
or a scream of AHHHHHH!!!

Go spend some 25-30 hours hidin' in the bushes,
all night, till dawn is near,
watchin' a condominium residence where a perp,
and your family lives just across a 4 lane highway.
(Overland Blvd, near Ballona Creek, for you L.A. folks. :))

You too might wonder of The Scream,
it's duration, it's sound, what it was.

You too might wonder of hearing someone running in dry leaves,
or someone the running down below the balcony,
opps, err, window, and why the **** did Nara not tell the cops her information.
:confused:
 
Rudi didn't know that. He didn't know as Mach writes above that the rear balcony and Knox's window are better choices. Perhaps he didn't think of it. Perhaps he didn't realize that there is a second-floor balcony above the wall that he walked past. Or perhaps he was aware of the upper balcony but thought it was exposed or that he could be compromised up there before he could get down. Perhaps Rudi wanted to be on solid ground with an escape route when he threw the rock

But burglars always make logical choices!
 
Well, this is more evidence of the fact that you think with 'prejudice'. I have in fact previously said I do not think there is any evidence of the timing of sexual contact between Guede and MK. I do not think and have never argued he has a serial killer profile. That you think I do shows you are thinking emotionally. If I had to judge, I think this was situational. I think Guede's fleeing the scene is contrary to the behaviour of a 'serial' killer. In a way I think this shows remorse or guilt not an action of a 'psychopath'. There is evidence that he committed a burglary. You may not think it is insufficient evidence. You may think the evidence better fits an alternative explanation but to deny there is any evidence just shows an absolute blindness to reality. You cannot deny there is evidence.

Sorry, why "emotionally"?
It's simply, well, logical consequence. I suppose you are aware that, given the physical evidence, a scenario where Rudy was a lone perpetrator requires that he commits sexual violence on a dead body, or anyway dying person.
(in my opinion this is already contradicted by the presence of bruises in genital area, but never mind).

And if you assume that a crime is "situational", then you need a situation that would lead to rape and to that kind of violence, which is a kind of violence that contains in a way extreme elements, close to torture, physical restraint, escalation, savage wounds etc, and ends with raping a dying person.
A burglary itself is not a situation that leads to such consequence. The situation you are talking about must be unknown. It must be like some psychiatric condition, about which we don't have evidence.

You know, I think you simply cannot judge such crima as "situational", as if they were a wife and husband argueing, they are drunk and start raising hand one against the other and one brakes a vase on the other's head or stabs her with a kitchen knife. To see this crime like that it would mean, simply, to deny the reality of the elements of this crime. Rather than being emotional, you are denying the nature of this crime.

Here, the point is that there is no "situation", if you place Guede there as a lone burglar.

I maintain that there is zero evidence of burglary. Evidence that fits one, consistent alternative scenario (that includes the common occurrence of crime staging on house murders), is not evidence. Evidence that you would have rule out as contaminated in a scenario of Sollecito's innocence, based on the principle that you employ for the decision, cannot be evidence of Guede's guilt at the same time.
So a broken window is not evidence, DNA on purse is not evidence. Missing cell phones is not evidence, look how it's more consistent in the alternative scenario: who is more likely to steal cell phones just to throw them away immediately, a burglar, or someone who lives in the apartment and needs to buy time for a staging, and needs that the phones to be not heared ringing in the apartment?
There is simply zero evidence of burglary.

On the other hand, there are many pieces of circumstantial evidence of staging that stend there independently, an array of red flags, that don't fit any other scenario but staging. When considered altogether, they only indicate staging, they are convergent.

No shoeprints on the ground below, no soil in the room, illogical point of entry, window sill not cleared from glass shard, untouched; drawers not searched; a tossing of items from the wadrobe that does not make sense for a burglar; rummaging only in one room and not in the others; the window left with the shutters half open; a very violent murder with sexual violence not explained by burglary and without apparent motive.

And not to speak about the overall imposibility of building a dynamic with Guede as lone perpetrator; starting from his shoeprints trail walking straight and not turning towards the victim's door, albeit the door was locked. Inconsistence between the fact that some murderer had bare feet that got wet with blood, while he was wearing shoes. Or between the fact that he had cuts on hands, and the murderer washed his/her hands in that bathroom, but there is no DNA of him in the basin (instead there is Knox's blood).
The fact that some murderer took care of washing himself, and evidently of having clean feet too, while instead he did not care about beling clean and about eaving a trail of bloody shoeprints. The fact that there are bloody footprints on the bathmat, but no trail of such print going or coming from the bathmat (is it likely that you have a shower and you only put down your feet on those two spots?). And the impossibility of explaining how he could have stepped on the pillow after the pillow was already under the victim's body (or otherwise, why did he put the pillow under the body if he had already finished his sexual performance; and if so, where did he step with his bloody shoe meanwhile). And why there is a gap of 270 centimeters between two of his shoeprints in the corridoor - by coincidence, in an area where a pair of luminol bare footrints was found (how could he take a 270 cm step? who cleaned the floor?)
These are not all, they are just some of the incnsstencies. It's not one or two illogical aspects. It's just catastrophic. There is nothing consistent. Thre is nothing like a lone perpetrator scenario.


1) We know Guede was present.
2) There is evidence of illegal entry (you may argue that a better explanation for this in the light of a murder is staging, but you cannot deny the existence of a broken window).
3) There was a theft of money and phones that were never recovered.
4) Guede fled abroad.

1 & 2 are clearly not evidence of burglary. Being present is not the same of committing a burglary, we know that. There is only a broken windo, which is not evidence of illegal entry, as long as, taken alone, it is equally good evidence of staging.
3 taking phones does not point in direction of a burglar, quite the contrary, because the tossing away of the phones indicates a motive for the theft that is not personal gain of the object, but rather staging. Money theft is something that could equally fit the opposite scenario and have the value of motive, insofar as that can be the cause of an argument and thus create, this one indeed, a "situation" that may lead to situational violence.
4 Guede fled: sorry, but first this has zero relevance as for evidence of burglary, since committing murder would be enough reason for fleeing, there is no need to add a burglary to that; second, Guede did flee but then he also decided to come back to Italy, he was caught when he was on his way back to Milan, here he intended to surrender himself to Italian police. He even asked Giacomo to pick him at the Milan station. The fact that he was coming back was one of the reason why he got generic mitigation.

PS you use the very emotional term treacherous liar. Who is she betraying? The use of terms like this show you are emotionally engaged; I hate to seem like T'Pol but emotion results in humans not being able to come to logical conclusions.

I don't agree with such analysis, and I don't even understand what do you mean with "emotional". I have a clear cut opinion about Knox's actions, I fail to see how they could change along with emotions. I can detail each one of Knox's actions, about how and why I see such actions are lies or why they have the quality of manipulative actions, I can talk about their features on factual basis. Emotions have little to do with that.
A man called Meir Ettinger this week is under arrest in Israel, as he is suspected of having attempted to torch a Palestinian home in 2014. The guy is 23 years old, always smiles in court, and is objectively a psycopath. You may Google pictures of him. I don't feel any emption, just my observation tells me that the behaviour of that person is that of a disturbed personality. I think this is a kind of observation that any neutral person could do, without feeling any personal involvement. I don't understand the observation of human actions should be seen as emotional investment. That about Ettinger may be an observation limited to the physchiatric sphere. As for Amanda Knox, the observation is mainly about the pattern of her lies. The record of her lies is so bad, that it qualifies her not only as a person with massive evidence against her, but also as a very dangerous person (so judge Micheli called her when he ordered to prolong cautionary arrest).
 
Machiavelli - you say that there's no evidence that there **wasn't** blood on them **when** they fled the cottage.

Given there is no evidence they were at the cottage I truly think you've set a record for quintuple-negative evidence. My head is spinning - which was your plan!
 
So if it is very logical to break in here,
why would [SIZE="-7"]Raffaele[/SIZE] or Amanda break Filomena's window,
to stage a break in?
(...)

An interesting point.

For the same reason why the cells phone were stolen. To buy time, to delay alarm, and to allow Knox to stage a discovery.

Because the stager (Amanda Knox, aided by Sollecito) is the person who lives there, and intends to use the staging in a certain way.

Recall that, as for FBI manual about discovery, the murderer who stages the crime in a house is the person who finds or leads to the finding of the body, or calls the police.

And the point that I am about to make is something that has a direct connection with another egregious inconsistency, that is the contradiction between Knox and Sollecito about Filomena's door ("closed" according to Knox, "wide open" according to Sollecito). The door needs to be closed in Knox's story, since it is a narrative device which allows her to tell a story about coming home, taking a shower, finding feces, transporting a mop, a story which also she needs to justify some possible evidence of using the shower.

The fact that Knox's main narrative device is contradicted so badly by Sollecito's statements is just another big piece of circumstantial evidence pointint to the fact thath the story is false, and that indicates the staging.

So, the stager is the person who lives there and intends to use the staging in a certain way.
Knox's story has one fudamental narrative device, which is that Filomena's door was closed.
If Filomena's door is open, her whole story collapses, because she spends a long time at home after the murder in her story, walks at lest four times past Filomena's door; she would have realized the "burglary" immediately on her arrival, could not tell a story about taking a shower carrying a mop etc. had she found Filomena's door open.

The time of her taking a shower, in fact, is the time of her washing herself and cleaning the bathroom floor, stealing the cell phones and tossing them, and staging the burglary. She feels a need to have a story to justify potential evidence from this time, and needs to buy time and delay discovery. She wants to delay, to take some time because she is afraid, needs to think, needs freedon to be at home and possibly to justify the fact that she was there for some time.

This is why the phones are tossed away in the ravine.
This is why she leaves Filomena's door closed - at least in her story.
And this is why she rules out the option of staging a burglary through the balcony windows (corrridor french window or kitchen), or through her own room.

She rules out her own room because it's the room where she lives. And she rules out the balcony windows, the kitchen and corridor, because the kitchen or corridor can't be put behind a closed door: it would be immediately visible, couldn't allow a story where she takes the time she wants and delays body discovery.

This is the reason why she choses Filomena's window.
 
Last edited:
An interesting point.

For the same reason why the cells phone were stolen. To buy time, to delay alarm, and to allow Knox to stage a discovery.

Because the stager (Amanda Knox, aided by Sollecito) is the person who lives there, and intends to use the staging in a certain way.

Recall that, as for FBI manual about discovery, the murderer who stages the crime in a house is the person who finds or leads to the finding of the body, or calls the police.

And the point that I am about to make is something that has a direct connection with another egregious inconsistency, that is the contradiction between Knox and Sollecito about Filomena's door ("closed" according to Knox, "wide open" according to Sollecito). The door needs to be closed in Knox's story, since it is a narrative device which allows her to tell a story about coming home, taking a shower, finding feces, transporting a mop, a story which also she needs to justify some possible evidence of using the shower.

The fact that Knox's main narrative device is contradicted so badly by Sollecito's statements is just another big piece of circumstantial evidence pointint to the fact thath the story is false, and that indicates the staging.

So, the stager is the person who lives there and intends to use the staging in a certain way.
Knox's story has one fudamental narrative device, which is that Filomena's door was closed.
If Filomena's door is open, her whole story collapses, because she walks at lest four times past Filomena's door, and she would realize the "burglary" immediately on her arrival, could not tell a story about taking a shower carrying a mop etc. had she found Filomena's door open.

The time of her taking a shower, in fact, is the time of her washing herself and cleaning the bathroom floor, stealing the cell phones and tossing them, and staging the burglary. She feels a need to have a story to justify potential evidence from this time, and needs to buy time and delay discovery.

This is why the phones are tossed away in the ravine.
This is why she leaves Filomena's door closed - at least in her story.
And this is why she rules out the option of staging a burglary through the corridoor window, or through her own room.

She rules out her own room because it's the room where she lives. And she rules out the balcony windows, the kitchen and corridor, because the kitchen or corridor can't be put behind a closed door: it would be immediately visible, couldn't allow a story where she takes the time she wants and delays body discovery.

The logical and really only way to stage the discovery is to notice the blood in the bathroom, check the bedrooms, find the break-in, notice Meredith's locked door, call Meredith, and then call the police in a feigned panic. Knox's actual behavior isn't something anyone would think to stage.
 
There is no evidence that Amanda and Raffaele were even in the apartment let alone that they cleaned themselves of blood in the bathroom. Such blood would have permeated their clothes and resulted in multiple instances of transfer, yet their is evidence of none. Furthermore there are no prints in blood in Kercher's room other than Guede's. Dan O has previously and numerously defeated your factually inaccurate argument about Guede's bloody prints but I do agree with you that Guede collected Kercher's blood on his shoe after the stabbing, but he certainly returned to the room.

You cannot stab somebody to death in a small room and not leave prolific evidence behind in the room and take it away. Yet no blood was found on their clothes or at Raffaele's apartment. Why?

Dan O has never defeated anyone. Quite the stunning contrary. He was just unable to put together a sequence that included stepping on the pillow and putting the pillow under the body, washing his own clothes and walking out without dripping bloody water along his way.
Failed to explain why he left bloody shoeprints after he had already washed himself (how does that make sense), or to explain how he could leave a trail of bloody shoeprints linked to the pillow prints just after leaving the shoeprints on the pillow, but manageing to take a shower on his trousers between the two actions.
Everything is inconsistent.
This includes the failure to explain why the trail of his print doesn't turn towards the door to lock it, while evidence shows it walks out without coming back. And why there is a 2,7 meters gap between two prints.
Dan O. coult not explain this kind of things through a reasonable sequence, because it's impossible.

On the other hand, your argument is defeated by the fact that the same could be said of Guede's clothes of or his own apartment. Ask yourself: was any blood trace found on Guede's clothes? Was any blood trace found in his apartment?
The answer is no. Bear in mind that Knox and Sollecito had a time of many hours after the murder. In fact Knox took care of delaying the discovery of the body as long as possible for this reason, to take time. You didn't find any blood traces on Guede's clothes, not even his shoes, and no blood trace in his home. It appears less than few hours were enough for him to get rid of such evidence, given that he even managed to go to the disco that night, looking clean.
So what are the clothes or the traces you were looking for? Actually inside the cottage there are a lot traces from Knox's and Sollecito's bodies that can be linked to blood, luminol prints bathmat etc., there is nothing alike in Guede's apartment. There are visible luminol stains from bare feet in Knox's room, there are luminol stains that yield Knox+Meredith DNA in the staging room. And yet you ask for "clothes": why? And by the way, considering that there are tracks from bare feet, is there evidence they were even wearing clothes, both of them? Maybe they were naked, or almost naked. We don't even know.
 
Grinder,
I will admit that it might be possible to concoct some weird scenario when a "false report to a peace officer" would lead to a plausible case for extradition, but in this case, no way.
You would have to be on the Mach planet to even imagine that would be possible.
It is agreed by all that she retracted the "false report to a peace officer" the first time she had the opportunity.
The Italian courts were way too wishy washy and inbred to admit that the police beat the statement out of her without a lawyer, but this would never fly for extradition.
Not in this case, especially.
The Italians would not even dream of attempting extradition, especially since even they know it would look like sour grapes and the ECHR will tear them a new hinny hole for criminally unfair interrogations when the ECHR gets around to it.

The question at hand was: Does the US have a law equivalent to calunnia?

She is considered innocent in the US since she was acquitted of murder And since the US does NOT have an equivalent crime to calunnia it means nothing.

In our system the laws are state laws by and large and therefore are different from state to state. False reporting of a crime or lying to the police are felonies in most states.

Anyone who with a denunciation, complaint, demand or request, even anonymously or under a false name, directs a judicial authority or other authority that has an obligation to report, to blame someone for a crime who he knows is innocent, that is he fabricates evidence against someone, shall be punished with imprisonment from two to six years​

While our laws are not as limited, they cover calunnia as defined above. If one did what Amanda was convicted of here, they too could be charged with a felony, which generally means more than a one year sentence.

I didn't understand why Hellmann left the conviction stand, but he did and therefore at this time someone here can call her a convicted criminal and not need to worry about being charged with libel or slander. Sad but true.
 
Sorry, why "emotionally"?
It's simply, well, logical consequence. I suppose you are aware that, given the physical evidence, a scenario where Rudy was a lone perpetrator requires that he commits sexual violence on a dead body, or anyway dying person.
(in my opinion this is already contradicted by the presence of bruises in genital area, but never mind).

And if you assume that a crime is "situational", then you need a situation that would lead to rape and to that kind of violence, which is a kind of violence that contains in a way extreme elements, close to torture, physical restraint, escalation, savage wounds etc, and ends with raping a dying person.
A burglary itself is not a situation that leads to such consequence. The situation you are talking about must be unknown. It must be like some psychiatric condition, about which we don't have evidence.

You know, I think you simply cannot judge such crima as "situational", as if they were a wife and husband argueing, they are drunk and start raising hand one against the other and one brakes a vase on the other's head or stabs her with a kitchen knife. To see this crime like that it would mean, simply, to deny the reality of the elements of this crime. Rather than being emotional, you are denying the nature of this crime.

Here, the point is that there is no "situation", if you place Guede there as a lone burglar.

I maintain that there is zero evidence of burglary. Evidence that fits one, consistent alternative scenario (that includes the common occurrence of crime staging on house murders), is not evidence. Evidence that you would have rule out as contaminated in a scenario of Sollecito's innocence, based on the principle that you employ for the decision, cannot be evidence of Guede's guilt at the same time.
So a broken window is not evidence, DNA on purse is not evidence. Missing cell phones is not evidence, look how it's more consistent in the alternative scenario:who is more likely to steal cell phones just to throw them away immediately, a burglar, or someone who lives in the apartment and needs to buy time for a staging, and needs that the phones to be not heared ringing in the apartment?There is simply zero evidence of burglary.

On the other hand, there are many pieces of circumstantial evidence of staging that stend there independently, an array of red flags, that don't fit any other scenario but staging. When considered altogether, they only indicate staging, they are convergent.

No shoeprints on the ground below, no soil in the room, illogical point of entry, window sill not cleared from glass shard, untouched; drawers not searched; a tossing of items from the wadrobe that does not make sense for a burglar; rummaging only in one room and not in the others; the window left with the shutters half open; a very violent murder with sexual violence not explained by burglary and without apparent motive.

And not to speak about the overall imposibility of building a dynamic with Guede as lone perpetrator; starting from his shoeprints trail walking straight and not turning towards the victim's door, albeit the door was locked. Inconsistence between the fact that some murderer had bare feet that got wet with blood, while he was wearing shoes. Or between the fact that he had cuts on hands, and the murderer washed his/her hands in that bathroom, but there is no DNA of him in the basin (instead there is Knox's blood).
The fact that some murderer took care of washing himself, and evidently of having clean feet too, while instead he did not care about beling clean and about eaving a trail of bloody shoeprints. The fact that there are bloody footprints on the bathmat, but no trail of such print going or coming from the bathmat (is it likely that you have a shower and you only put down your feet on those two spots?). And the impossibility of explaining how he could have stepped on the pillow after the pillow was already under the victim's body (or otherwise, why did he put the pillow under the body if he had already finished his sexual performance; and if so, where did he step with his bloody shoe meanwhile). And why there is a gap of 270 centimeters between two of his shoeprints in the corridoor - by coincidence, in an area where a pair of luminol bare footrints was found (how could he take a 270 cm step? who cleaned the floor?)
These are not all, they are just some of the incnsstencies. It's not one or two illogical aspects. It's just catastrophic. There is nothing consistent. Thre is nothing like a lone perpetrator scenario.




1 & 2 are clearly not evidence of burglary. Being present is not the same of committing a burglary, we know that. There is only a broken windo, which is not evidence of illegal entry, as long as, taken alone, it is equally good evidence of staging.
3 taking phones does not point in direction of a burglar, quite the contrary, because the tossing away of the phones indicates a motive for the theft that is not personal gain of the object, but rather staging. Money theft is something that could equally fit the opposite scenario and have the value of motive, insofar as that can be the cause of an argument and thus create, this one indeed, a "situation" that may lead to situational violence.
4 Guede fled: sorry, but first this has zero relevance as for evidence of burglary, since committing murder would be enough reason for fleeing, there is no need to add a burglary to that; second, Guede did flee but then he also decided to come back to Italy, he was caught when he was on his way back to Milan, here he intended to surrender himself to Italian police. He even asked Giacomo to pick him at the Milan station. The fact that he was coming back was one of the reason why he got generic mitigation.



I don't agree with such analysis, and I don't even understand what do you mean with "emotional". I have a clear cut opinion about Knox's actions, I fail to see how they could change along with emotions. I can detail each one of Knox's actions, about how and why I see such actions are lies or why they have the quality of manipulative actions, I can talk about their features on factual basis. Emotions have little to do with that.
A man called Meir Ettinger this week is under arrest in Israel, as he is suspected of having attempted to torch a Palestinian home in 2014. The guy is 23 years old, always smiles in court, and is objectively a psycopath. You may Google pictures of him. I don't feel any emption, just my observation tells me that the behaviour of that person is that of a disturbed personality. I think this is a kind of observation that any neutral person could do, without feeling any personal involvement. I don't understand the observation of human actions should be seen as emotional investment. That about Ettinger may be an observation limited to the physchiatric sphere. As for Amanda Knox, the observation is mainly about the pattern of her lies. The record of her lies is so bad, that it qualifies her not only as a person with massive evidence against her, but also as a very dangerous person (so judge Micheli called her when he ordered to prolong cautionary arrest).

An opportunistic burglar who fancies Meredith and who may be on drugs who throws away the phones in a panic and who uses the stolen money to escape the country?
 
The logical and really only way to stage the discovery is to notice the blood in the bathroom, check the bedrooms, find the break-in, notice Meredith's locked door, call Meredith, and then call the police in a feigned panic. Knox's actual behavior isn't something anyone would think to stage.

One of the most irratating aspects is that the PGP will not look at a better plan for Knox and Raffaele just to drive to Gubbio and wait for a call. It was planned and that would be corroborated. We know they didn't clean up the place because the blood drops, while known to them, were not removed. They could easily have disposed of all the bloody stuff and the murder weapons.

They knew the poop was in the toilet. Why leave it? Why would they want Rudi caught?
 
Mr. Dine,

Could you give the link to Rudi's blood being found. I know his palm print in blood was found and DNA I didn't know his blood was found.

Thanks
 
Dan O has never defeated anyone. Quite the stunning contrary. He was just unable to put together a sequence that included stepping on the pillow and putting the pillow under the body, washing his own clothes and walking out without dripping bloody water along his way.
Failed to explain why he left bloody shoeprints after he had already washed himself (how does that make sense), or to explain how he could leave a trail of bloody shoeprints linked to the pillow prints just after leaving the shoeprints on the pillow, but manageing to take a shower on his trousers between the two actions.
Everything is inconsistent.
This includes the failure to explain why the trail of his print doesn't turn towards the door to lock it, while evidence shows it walks out without coming back. And why there is a 2,7 meters gap between two prints.
Dan O. coult not explain this kind of things through a reasonable sequence, because it's impossible.

On the other hand, your argument is defeated by the fact that the same could be said of Guede's clothes of or his own apartment. Ask yourself: was any blood trace found on Guede's clothes? Was any blood trace found in his apartment?
The answer is no. Bear in mind that Knox and Sollecito had a time of many hours after the murder. In fact Knox took care of delaying the discovery of the body as long as possible for this reason, to take time. You didn't find any blood traces on Guede's clothes, not even his shoes, and no blood trace in his home. It appears less than few hours were enough for him to get rid of such evidence, given that he even managed to go to the disco that night, looking clean.
So what are the clothes or the traces you were looking for? Actually inside the cottage there are a lot traces from Knox's and Sollecito's bodies that can be linked to blood, luminol prints bathmat etc., there is nothing alike in Guede's apartment. There are visible luminol stains from bare feet in Knox's room, there are luminol stains that yield Knox+Meredith DNA in the staging room. And yet you ask for "clothes": why? And by the way, considering that there are tracks from bare feet, is there evidence they were even wearing clothes, both of them? Maybe they were naked, or almost naked. We don't even know.


You're trying to take limited information and reconstruct from a very stochastic past a perfect linear order of events. It's impossible, unless you have a video camera. There's all sorts of different object interactions at different times that will leave the same or similar results after the fact. Rudy places the pillow down, then drags Meredith onto it, and steps on it in the process. Or the pillow was grabbed or knocked around during the struggle and falls to the ground where it is stepped on. Or some other sequence of events. Same for the footprint gap. Maybe Rudy stepped on something else in that spot that was later inadvertently moved, I seem to remember a lot of junk in the Hallway. Or maybe the police missed it before it was cleaned, or maybe something else. Or maybe the unexplained footprint gap means the American girl you hate did it.
 
Why not just leave the balcony door unlocked or ajar? Why not just put screwdriver marks on the door? Why not jimmy open the kitchen window?

All those clothes and things picked from the wardrobe tossed around the room. The stager wanted something theatrical. In what room could they do that?

The staging does is not consistent with reality, but it has its own logic, it reflects a scheme, a setting in the stager's mind.
 
One of the most irratating aspects is that the PGP will not look at a better plan for Knox and Raffaele just to drive to Gubbio and wait for a call. It was planned and that would be corroborated. We know they didn't clean up the place because the blood drops, while known to them, were not removed. They could easily have disposed of all the bloody stuff and the murder weapons.

They knew the poop was in the toilet. Why leave it? Why would they want Rudi caught?

Amanda was smart to convince Rudy to leave his DNA in the body and cover himself in the victim's blood and walk around in it. And smarter still when she made sure her kitchen knife stabbing left an indistinct wound compatible with the other smaller knife. But she could have saved herself a lot of trouble if she simply did as you say instead of stupidly telling the police she invited the killer in through the front door to the place where she staged a break-in through a window, doh. I mean she got away with it in the end thanks to two professors and a judge who helped her for no reason, but there would have been less time in prison and about 100,000 less posts on this forum, which probably would be much to the relief of many ;)
 
DavoFoc said:
Guede's DNA in Kercher's purse isn't evidence that Guede committed a burglary here?


Machiavelli said:
Obviously not.
First, because there was a fight between Meredith and the murderers, and DNA can be left in the context of such confrontation, without any link to a burglary (that is DNA on purse is equally explainable in both scenarios).
Second, it should not evidence from an innocentisti point of view; I mean it cannot be evidence if one assumes that Sollecito's DNA on the clasp is not evidence because of alleged contamination. Guede's DNA on the purse was found 46 days later in the same context of bra clasp, among same mess and rummaging, dirty floor etc.

Those who rule out bra clasp DNA because of this also have to rule out Guede's DNA.


Hi Machiavelli,
I see your point, ok?
I'm getting buzzed and a drunk for the 1st time since last weekend,
so I might not be of a sane mind right now as I write this,
hope that's cool?
:cool:


With that said,
I'll agree with what you wrote and I bolded up above,
if only, + only if, there are 2, 3, or 4 other males DNA
on Meredith Kercher's purse, like on her Bra Clasp.
OK?
 
The question at hand was: Does the US have a law equivalent to calunnia?


In our system the laws are state laws by and large and therefore are different from state to state. False reporting of a crime or lying to the police are felonies in most states.

Anyone who with a denunciation, complaint, demand or request, even anonymously or under a false name, directs a judicial authority or other authority that has an obligation to report, to blame someone for a crime who he knows is innocent, that is he fabricates evidence against someone, shall be punished with imprisonment from two to six years​

While our laws are not as limited, they cover calunnia as defined above. If one did what Amanda was convicted of here, they too could be charged with a felony, which generally means more than a one year sentence.

I didn't understand why Hellmann left the conviction stand, but he did and therefore at this time someone here can call her a convicted criminal and not need to worry about being charged with libel or slander. Sad but true.

While I agree with your final statement, I think Amanda can safely say on a job application that she has never been convicted of a felony. While I do see some similarities in the laws, I don't see them as equivalent. So much of this is semantics. I doubt that this incident negatively effects her career prospects.
 
All those clothes and things picked from the wardrobe tossed around the room. The stager wanted something theatrical. In what room could they do that?

The staging does is not consistent with reality, but it has its own logic, it reflects a scheme, a setting in the stager's mind.

Guede took clothes off hangers and threw them on the floor in the lawyer's office he broke into, coincidentally also by smashing the glass with a large rock and climbing up from the floor below. The lawyer speculated it was to cover the glass so he wouldn't inadvertently walk on it, but maybe it's just one of Guede's weird tics.
 
Dan O has never defeated anyone. Quite the stunning contrary. He was just unable to put together a sequence that included stepping on the pillow and putting the pillow under the body, washing his own clothes and walking out without dripping bloody water along his way.
Failed to explain why he left bloody shoeprints after he had already washed himself (how does that make sense), or to explain how he could leave a trail of bloody shoeprints linked to the pillow prints just after leaving the shoeprints on the pillow, but manageing to take a shower on his trousers between the two actions.
Everything is inconsistent.
This includes the failure to explain why the trail of his print doesn't turn towards the door to lock it, while evidence shows it walks out without coming back. And why there is a 2,7 meters gap between two prints.
Dan O. coult not explain this kind of things through a reasonable sequence, because it's impossible.

On the other hand, your argument is defeated by the fact that the same could be said of Guede's clothes of or his own apartment. Ask yourself: was any blood trace found on Guede's clothes? Was any blood trace found in his apartment?
The answer is no. Bear in mind that Knox and Sollecito had a time of many hours after the murder. In fact Knox took care of delaying the discovery of the body as long as possible for this reason, to take time. You didn't find any blood traces on Guede's clothes, not even his shoes, and no blood trace in his home. It appears less than few hours were enough for him to get rid of such evidence, given that he even managed to go to the disco that night, looking clean.
So what are the clothes or the traces you were looking for? Actually inside the cottage there are a lot traces from Knox's and Sollecito's bodies that can be linked to blood, luminol prints bathmat etc., there is nothing alike in Guede's apartment. There are visible luminol stains from bare feet in Knox's room, there are luminol stains that yield Knox+Meredith DNA in the staging room. And yet you ask for "clothes": why? And by the way, considering that there are tracks from bare feet, is there evidence they were even wearing clothes, both of them? Maybe they were naked, or almost naked. We don't even know.


For some time,
I've wondered this:
How many towels were there inside of Meredith + Amanda's bathroom?

Rudy Guede says that after the dude stabbed Meredith and he fought him off,
that he grabbed 3 towels to try and save his "date",
apparently goin' back + forth to the bathroom to grab a towel
1 at a time.

And I recall that Miss Knox had a shower the next morning,
do I recall correctly that there were not any towels in the bathroom?

Any idea if there were more than 3 towels there that night?
If so, I have to wonder what did Rudy Guede do with them?
 
One of the most irratating aspects is that the PGP will not look at a better plan for Knox and Raffaele just to drive to Gubbio and wait for a call. It was planned and that would be corroborated. We know they didn't clean up the place because the blood drops, while known to them, were not removed. They could easily have disposed of all the bloody stuff and the murder weapons.

But what happens if they stay away in Gubbio the whole day (after having spent the night awake) they come back at night, and there is still nobody home and nobody has discovered the body?

And what happens if they need to wait for the opening of the shops - like Quintavalle's shop - because they need to buy a new mop or a new cleaning rag?

Actually, we know they cleaned up the house, precisely because of the blood drops, which indicate that some parts had been cleaned.
The bathmat was completely soaked with water: this means they tried to wash it. But what happens if they dispose of it? It's dangerous, because it would appear it's missing and at that point a cleaning would become obvious.

And what happens if Sollecito's disposes of the kitchen knife: it does not belong to him, it's listed in the kitchen inventory. They would need to replace it, or in alternative clean it the best they can.

And what happens if someone noticed Amanda Knox walking out through the town in the morning carrying a mop and a bucket. Her story must be set in a way that could explain it.

Or what happens if someone notices that the bathroom and the shower were used recently: going to Gubbio hardly explains that.

The life of a stager is a hard life.

They knew the poop was in the toilet. Why leave it? Why would they want Rudi caught?

It's interesting. But from testimonies, it looks like Knox was almost obsessed with the detail of the "s** in the toilet". It's almost as if there is a psychological urge to attribute, to project, the "s** in the toilet" on someone else, to tell everyone that "they" ("she", Knox) is the clean one, she is not the one who could possibly leave "s** in the toilet", just like as she blamed Meredith of being the one who would leave menstrual blood in the bathroom. Those were in fact Knox's behaviours. Her need to project them on someone else is evident.
And then, although she didn't want Guede to be caught, she also may have been capable to perceive that maybe it was better if there was some actual evidence of a foreign intruder, since only some actual evidence of someone else could deflect suspicion from her.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom