Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Kauffer]

Oh, it isn't. It isn't probative at all. Scientific literature was referred to multiple times, yet you fail to accept it.
And if it were probative as negative for the luminol stains,it would be probative in positive for the mop. So what kind of evidence was Stefanoni meaning to hide?
And also, when she mentioned multiple tests and said they were negative, if she was not specific enough, why didn't the defence ask to specify better? What do you think a cross questioning is for?
Yet, despite such absolute nothing, you accuse Stefanoni of lying. And you even state TMB negative is probative despite scientific evidence of the contrary (even scientific papers recently claiming that no presumptive test should follow luminol), and well knowing there wouldn't be any alternative substance that doesn't react to TMB. Is it possible that you can't see how biased you are?

What's laughable about this is not the ludicrous claims you make for the redundancy of the TMB test, but that what you are doing is actually making an overt criticism of Stefanoni's methods. She shouldn't have used the test, is your assertion!

So, what should have been the process? Rely on the luminol result or proceed to confirmatory testing? What does the literature say should be done?

Why don't you lay out with complete clarity what, according to you, should have been the testing process?

 

[Bill Williams]

What's laughable about this is not the ludicrous claims you make for the redundancy of the TMB test, but that what you are doing is actually making an overt criticism of Stefanoni's methods. She shouldn't have used the test, is your assertion!

So, what should have been the process? Rely on the luminol result or proceed to confirmatory testing? What does the literature say should be done?

Why don't you lay out with complete clarity what, according to you, should have been the testing process?

The mark of a poor argument is that it by necessity damages other parts of the scenario being peddled.

The other mark of a poor argument is the rhetorical damage control which needfully ensues due to - what is essentially - an own-goal.

 

[Ken Dine]

She did, if she wasn't specific. And she wasn't. A TMB negative test result is probative. For Stefanoni it proved the luminol hits were not blood. She said they were not blood. But she left the result out of her report.

As I recall, Stefanoni's first testimony was that she could tell the footprints were made with blood due to the brightness of the luminol reaction.

It was during later testimony where Stefanoni finally admitted that she had tested the prints with TMB and found no blood.


http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/footprints-01.html

 

[Grinder]

You are so funny. Not to mention DELUDED! Knox is not considered a felon in the United States. She is considered innocent in the US since she was acquitted of murder And since the US does NOT have an equivalent crime to calunnia it means nothing. This will not harm her prospects in the US (where she lives) in any way.

I have no idea how people here view the calunnia though those that accept the not guilty verdict certainly doubt that she lied about Patrick with one notable exception

We do have a felony very similar to calunnia, which is false reporting of a crime. Google it in the news and see.

 

[Grinder]

As I recall, Stefanoni's first testimony was that she could tell the footprints were made with blood due to the brightness of the luminol reaction.

It was during later testimony where Stefanoni finally admitted that she had tested the prints with TMB and found no blood.

I'm pretty sure she said exactly that about the luminol results. I wonder if she had questions about why the booties of the CSI guys showed "blood".

 

[Machiavelli]

Through double pane windows?! What Mach refuses to acknowledge was the CBS special "Dateline" did audio tests from the apartment next to Nara's through the same kind of double pane windows and no one could hear what Nara claims she heard. In fact, theyou said it was hard to hear anything including the cars on the road.

You may forget the detail that Nara opened the window and stuck outside.

And don't forget about Antonella Monacchia.

 

[Bill Williams]

I have no idea how people here view the calunnia though those that accept the not guilty verdict certainly doubt that she lied about Patrick with one notable exception

We do have a felony very similar to calunnia, which is false reporting of a crime. Google it in the news and see.

Not sure if this was aimed my way except the tongue is a hint!

Truly you are somewhat correct, but I'm not sure if the "she lied about Patrick" sentence above scans the way you meant. I'll give it a go anyway. (The hint you may not have meant me is that you referred to this opinion holder as "notable"!)

I still do not know if any of us actually understand alunnia either in law or as it's applied. Your parallel with the false reporting of a crime might be the way to think of it, who really knows.

What bamboozled me way back when was the nature of coercion in the interrogation. I don't buy a criticism of interrogations simply on the grounds they are coercive. The goal is always to get the suspect to confess, and everything that accomplishes that goal is coercive in some measure.

For me it was reading Mignini's interview with CNN's Drew Griffin that I realized the measure of abuse of process and planting of content that went on. Knox did not falsely report a crime in any meaningful sense. It was planted within her to teport the crime the cops were too gutless to close on - their own belief that Lumumba did it.

(The only question is when did they first believe that? Did they zero in as late as the "see you later" SMS message or before?)

Coercion, per se, was not the problem. Getting perps to say what they don't want to requires "incentive"!

It was Mignini's abuse of process, one he was aware of before vilunteering to be "only a notary" that's the issue.

BTW - our own Machiavelli helped out in translating that CNN interview. Drew Griffin said after that he'd found Mignini rambling and confused. So the PMFers translated it to show the English speaking world that Mignini was lucid, methodical and wise.

Yeah, like how'd that work out.

Oh and btw.....

 

[Grinder]

You may forget the detail that Nara opened the window and stuck outside.

And don't forget about Antonella Monacchia.

Let's see, she gets up to pee and hears the most blood curdling scream of her life and then opens the window and hears the footsteps.

This is at a time that Curatolo is seeing the kids in the plaza. Nara doesn't call the police or even look at a clock or watch. The perps run out of the cottage shortly after the scream not giving them time to wash off the blood. The kids return to the plaza (that they never left according to AC) without washing.

And the earth is flat and the center of the universe.

 

[Grinder]

I still do not know if any of us actually understand alunnia either in law or as it's applied. Your parallel with the false reporting of a crime might be the way to think of it, who really knows.

Oh and btw.....

I think it is pretty clear.

Anyone who with a denunciation, complaint, demand or request, even anonymously or under a false name, directs a judicial authority or other authority that has an obligation to report, to blame someone for a crime who he knows is innocent, that is he fabricates evidence against someone, shall be punished with imprisonment from two to six years.

While our false reporting of a crime does not require naming the perp, it can.

 

[Machiavelli]

You are so funny. Not to mention DELUDED! Knox is not considered a felon in the United States. She is considered innocent in the US since she was acquitted of murder And since the US does NOT have an equivalent crime to calunnia it means nothing. This will not harm her prospects in the US (where she lives) in any way.

Your argument means nothing. The judicial truth is that Amanda and Raffaele are innocent of involvement in Metedith's murder.PERIOD But you can rant and rave. And the rest of us will just smile, because we have our friend and neighbor safe at home out of the clutches of the Italian mad men.

Can I have an "Amen"?

A poll in 2011 revealed that something like 40% of US citizens believed 9/11 attack was committed by Saddam Hussein.
What Americans believe is not on my radar, and actually not on yours either. I have never understood what US think, and has never been of my interest. I can tell I feel reasonably certain that what the average Americans apparently "think" will have a very remote relationship with grasp of reality on really many topics.
The point is very simple. If what you do on a forum is to rant that you've won and it's over or that you don't care of things, then what you are doing is, simply, only covering your ears like Amanda Knox did to not hear Meredith's horrific scream. That is you are only telling you don't want to hear or discuss topics, what you only try to do is say something that makes the interlocutor stop.
As I entered this forum weeks ago, your first and only response to a factual point I made was to say "who cares". Basically you kept going on saying the same thing.
I am here to talk about factual things about the case. Lies told about Knox, or even why I think the suspects have certain personality traits, or why the Knix propaganda statements are false, what the sentences actually say, and so on.
These are the kinds of topics. You won't change that.

 

[RWVBWL]

The point is very simple. If what you do on a forum is to rant that you've won and it's over or that you don't care of things, then what you are doing is simply only covering your ears like Amanda Knox did to not hear Meredith's horrific scream.

Only 1 horrific scream?
With 3 people supposedly holding her,
how did Miss Kercher even get any chance to scream for more than a brief moment?

Maybe she bit 1 of them so hard that they removed their hand from covering her mouth and in a split second screamed for what?

HELP!!!
or
AHHHH!!!

How could Miss Knox be covering her ears when only 1 horrific scream happened and supposedly Miss Knox had that huuuge kitchen knife that you believe she carried around for protection in her hand, getting ready to or already in the process of stabbing Miss Kercher?

 

[RWVBWL]

37, + ? + ?

Recently we were discussing the CCTV recordings that OGGI had written about.

I have a couple of questions,
so allow me top re-post the 1st paragraph of this article,
ok?

Perugia. Does the truth lie in this forgotten video?

There are 2,068 registered files the evening of the murder and they have never been analysed in depth. In one there is a worrying finding. It has a resounding similarity.

By Giangavino Sulas

In the investigation into the murder of Meredith Kercher there is a DVD, which till now has inexplicably been ignored. It contains 2,068 files made the night of 1st November 2007 by the surveillance telecamera, placed at the entrance to the Sant’Antonio carpark in Perugia. It was seized by the flying squad and consigned to the Scientific Police for analysis of the recorded images for the hours preceeding and following the murder. This telecamera in fact not only captures the entrance to the parking lot, but also the entrance gate to the house in via Della Pergola from across the road. Having finished its work, the Scientific Police, in the account given to the Prosecutor, did not indicate anything relevant, on account of the poor quality of the images and the difficulty in identifying the people taken. And yet there are worrying images taken a little before 10pm, which were missed by the eyes of the enquirers. Very sharp images, among which not only are the people recognisable and potentially identifiable, but all show the same strange behaviour. Between 21.00 and 22.00, the telecamera recorded the entry into the car park of 37 people. All those captured between 21.31 and 21.52 passing the entrance barrier show the same reaction; they stop to look to the left, towards the entrance of the carpark, in other words towards the entrance to Meredith’s house. In several images we see a small family, consisting of father, mother, and two children stop; first the mother turns, then one of the children, then both together. They seem to be discussing something. Finally they go away. The couple who passed before them had the same reaction. What attracted their attention? What was happening during those minutes? Had they heard screams? Had they heard someone screaming for help? Had they seen someone running away? Why were these people not identified and questioned?

Link:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10058345&postcount=8520


There were 37 people seen on CCTV from 9:00 to 10:00pm that night.
How many people were seen from 10:00 to 11:00pm?
How many people were seen from 11:00 to 12:00pm


Look,
it was great CCTV footage and some good old sleuthing that busted the dude who has apparently been destroying my sister + husband truck tires. They, and I too, looked at sooo many files recorded by CCTV motion detection of him.(*)

The Oggi article above states this:
There are 2,068 registered files the evening of the murder and they have never been analysed in depth. In one there is a worrying finding. It has a resounding similarity.

Oggi only analysed 1 file out of 2,068???


I'd really like to see CCTV footage of Amanda Knox and [SIZE="-7"]Raffaele Sollecito[/SIZE] running from the cottage after Miss Kercher's murder.
Might make me believe that they were up to no good...
My 2¢,
RW


(*) - The dude who apparently was vandalizing my sister + hubby's trucks was, get this, hogtied and carried to a squad car at the condominium complex he lived at for many years. It's the talk of the residence, you might say. It seems he mighta been a bit un-co-operative when 2 detectives and 6 cops arrested him. His bail is $150,000.00

 

[RWVBWL]

Ol' Nara,
in testimony at The Massei Trial, can hear druggies:

PRESIDENT – Don’t worry, madam.
PM – DR. MIGNINI – Before getting to the night in question, wait a moment, now I wanted to know about before, in the period before, between the death of your husband and that night. Did it happen that you were awoken by noise or screams before?
Answer – Well. Yes, because down there there is the car-park where there are so many …
PRESIDENT – Other than the cars, is there something else or is it only cars? Answer – Well, there would be the druggies. PRESIDENT – The screams, who screams? This is what the PM is asking.
Answer – Yes, but among them, among those going to get their cars, there are people running after them… well, shouts of joy, it’s not that …

* * *

Ol' Nara can hear a druggies scream,
probably downstairs and outside.

And hear only 1 scream,
emanating from inside of a distant house where a bedroom window was not broken yet
and the front door (+ bedroom door?) surely closed too?

And hear foot steps in dry leaves from across the roadway,
and hear foot steps running down below her apartment.

But did not hear all the clanging goin' on when the tow truck driver showed up
to work on the broken down car?

Man,
the sound of that must have been sooo loud on a quiet Holiday night.

 

[Bill Williams]

I.am here to talk about factual things about the case. Lies told about Knox, or even why I think the suspects have certain personality traits, or why the Knix propaganda statements are false, what the sentences actually say, and so on.
These are the kinds of topics. You won't change that.

I am then more confused than ever. Why, then, aren't you as passionate about doing this in Italian, among Italians, where it will do some good?

I mean, what if you singlehandedly converted everyone here? You'd be no better off except to mutter, "I showed them!!!"

If You covered this, please point to where.

 

[Bill Williams]

I think it is pretty clear.

Anyone who with a denunciation, complaint, demand or request, even anonymously or under a false name, directs a judicial authority or other authority that has an obligation to report, to blame someone for a crime who he knows is innocent, that is he fabricates evidence against someone, shall be punished with imprisonment from two to six years.

While our false reporting of a crime does not require naming the perp, it can.

I think you are right, and truly believe you should be taken to be right....

Yet the way it seems to be applied in this case is not precisely that! One could reasonably expect a different outcome from a court who applied that law as written; esp. with exonerations on the more serious charges.

We've been around this block dozens of times, and us English-speakers seem to be unaware of some dietrology associated with this as it cashes out....

I'm with you on this, dude, I really am.

 

[Bill Williams]

And the earth is flat and the center of the universe.

That's what they told Galileo, IIRC. And they didn't get around to apologizing for that until the 1990s. Even slower than an Italian court. Oh wait.....

 

[Machiavelli]

Only 1 horrific scream?
With 3 people supposedly holding her,
how did Miss Kercher even get any chance to scream for more than a brief moment?

Maybe she bit 1 of them so hard that they removed their hand from covering her mouth and in a split second screamed for what?

HELP!!!
or
AHHHH!!!

How could Miss Knox be covering her ears when only 1 horrific scream happened and supposedly Miss Knox had that huuuge kitchen knife that you believe she carried around for protection in her hand, getting ready to or already in the process of stabbing Miss Kercher?

I don't believe a sane person could ever write this post.

 

[Machiavelli]

Ol' Nara,
in testimony at The Massei Trial, can hear druggies:

PRESIDENT – Don’t worry, madam.
PM – DR. MIGNINI – Before getting to the night in question, wait a moment, now I wanted to know about before, in the period before, between the death of your husband and that night. Did it happen that you were awoken by noise or screams before?
Answer – Well. Yes, because down there there is the car-park where there are so many …
PRESIDENT – Other than the cars, is there something else or is it only cars? Answer – Well, there would be the druggies. PRESIDENT – The screams, who screams? This is what the PM is asking.
Answer – Yes, but among them, among those going to get their cars, there are people running after them… well, shouts of joy, it’s not that …

* * *

Ol' Nara can hear a druggies scream,
probably downstairs and outside.

And hear only 1 scream,
emanating from inside of a distant house where a bedroom window was not broken yet
and the front door (+ bedroom door?) surely closed too?

And hear foot steps in dry leaves from across the roadway,
and hear foot steps running down below her apartment.

But did not hear all the clanging goin' on when the tow truck driver showed up
to work on the broken down car?

Man,
the sound of that must have been sooo loud on a quiet Holiday night.

Nara Capezzali was deemed credible by all judges, Hellmann included.
But you go on omitting that her testimony is confirmed by Antonella Monacchia.

 

[Bill Williams]

I don't believe a sane person could ever write this post.

It is, then, your beliefs which are at issue.

 

[Machiavelli]

Recently we were discussing the CCTV recordings that OGGI had written about.

I have a couple of questions,
so allow me top re-post the 1st paragraph of this article,
ok?

Perugia. Does the truth lie in this forgotten video?

There are 2,068 registered files the evening of the murder and they have never been analysed in depth. In one there is a worrying finding. It has a resounding similarity.

By Giangavino Sulas

In the investigation into the murder of Meredith Kercher there is a DVD, which till now has inexplicably been ignored. It contains 2,068 files made the night of 1st November 2007 by the surveillance telecamera, placed at the entrance to the Sant’Antonio carpark in Perugia. It was seized by the flying squad and consigned to the Scientific Police for analysis of the recorded images for the hours preceeding and following the murder. This telecamera in fact not only captures the entrance to the parking lot, but also the entrance gate to the house in via Della Pergola from across the road. Having finished its work, the Scientific Police, in the account given to the Prosecutor, did not indicate anything relevant, on account of the poor quality of the images and the difficulty in identifying the people taken. And yet there are worrying images taken a little before 10pm, which were missed by the eyes of the enquirers. Very sharp images, among which not only are the people recognisable and potentially identifiable, but all show the same strange behaviour. Between 21.00 and 22.00, the telecamera recorded the entry into the car park of 37 people. All those captured between 21.31 and 21.52 passing the entrance barrier show the same reaction; they stop to look to the left, towards the entrance of the carpark, in other words towards the entrance to Meredith’s house. In several images we see a small family, consisting of father, mother, and two children stop; first the mother turns, then one of the children, then both together. They seem to be discussing something. Finally they go away. The couple who passed before them had the same reaction. What attracted their attention? What was happening during those minutes? Had they heard screams? Had they heard someone screaming for help? Had they seen someone running away? Why were these people not identified and questioned?

Link:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10058345&postcount=8520


There were 37 people seen on CCTV from 9:00 to 10:00pm that night.
How many people were seen from 10:00 to 11:00pm?
How many people were seen from 11:00 to 12:00pm


Look,
it was great CCTV footage and some good old sleuthing that busted the dude who has apparently been destroying my sister + husband truck tires. They, and I too, looked at sooo many files recorded by CCTV motion detection of him.(*)

The Oggi article above states this:
There are 2,068 registered files the evening of the murder and they have never been analysed in depth. In one there is a worrying finding. It has a resounding similarity.

Oggi only analysed 1 file out of 2,068???


I'd really like to see CCTV footage of Amanda Knox and [SIZE="-7"]Raffaele Sollecito[/SIZE] running from the cottage after Miss Kercher's murder.
Might make me believe that they were up to no good...
My 2¢,
RW


(*) - The dude who apparently was vandalizing my sister + hubby's trucks was, get this, hogtied and carried to a squad car at the condominium complex he lived at for many years. It's the talk of the residence, you might say. It seems he mighta been a bit un-co-operative when 2 detectives and 6 cops arrested him. His bail is $150,000.00

Well, this calls back into my mind that in at least son photograms of that night there was a dark car that looked like an Audi A3 of 2007 stopping in front of the cottage gate.
There was a dark car parked at the gate according to testimony of tow truck witnesses. I wonder what the CCTV who about such car.