Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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My idea is that participants of this forum are staunch believers, not skeptics.
They don't laugh when oster state conspiracy theories involving Stefanoni or tell stories about other false narratives, despite no proof and no factual support exists in reality.

See my post with answers about Stefanoni above, to have a look at what facts look like.

It's true, I don't believe Amanda convinced her boyfriend of 5 days to kill the only native English speaker she was friends with for no reason and on a night they previously had other engagements on they spontaneously recruited a local burglar they just happened by sheer chance to run into to come along and help kill, within a 20 minute time span, and when all was said and done the crime scene resembled a break-in that was forensically and idiosyncratically similar to this burglar's previous break-in with a murder victim surrounded by the burglar's bloody prints and DNA. It's a non sequitur crime and frankly it really doesn't matter to me what the evidence is.
 
It's true, I don't believe Amanda convinced her boyfriend of 5 days to kill the only native English speaker she was friends with for no reason and on a night they previously had other engagements on they spontaneously recruited a local burglar they just happened by sheer chance to run into to come along and help kill, within a 20 minute time span, and when all was said and done the crime scene resembled a break-in that was forensically and idiosyncratically similar to this burglar's previous break-in with a murder victim surrounded by the burglar's bloody prints and DNA. It's a non sequitur crime and frankly it really doesn't matter to me what the evidence is.

I think if there were bloody hand prints found at the time of the murder scene from Amanda, that would be pretty damning.
 
I think if there were bloody hand prints found at the time of the murder scene from Amanda, that would be pretty damning.

I suppose. But maybe not. What if they found Martha Stewart's hand print. At a certain point a crime scenario just doesn't work.
 
And IIUC the court is obliged not to judge that reason as being either exculpatory or damning. Why you see this as even relevant shows the poverty of your analysis of the evidence.

The court does not judge whether defence reasons are exculpatory or damning.
What they can judge, based on a defence requst, is whether at that stage of the trial that evidence could be determinant. They assessed the result wouldn't be determinant, so the court's didn't analyze it.
This is in accord with the procedure code.
 
It's true, I don't believe Amanda convinced her boyfriend of 5 days to kill the only native English speaker she was friends with for no reason and on a night they previously had other engagements on they spontaneously recruited a local burglar they just happened by sheer chance to run into to come along and help kill, within a 20 minute time span, and when all was said and done the crime scene resembled a break-in that was forensically and idiosyncratically similar to this burglar's previous break-in with a murder victim surrounded by the burglar's bloody prints and DNA. It's a non sequitur crime and frankly it really doesn't matter to me what the evidence is.

It makes no sense. You can't investigate a crime starting from a pre-set scenario.
That would be pure circular fallacy. If you assume a working scenario that is nonsense by your own definition, then by definition you state and conclude that the crime makes no sense.
You need to start from evidence.

The alleged break in is not similar to the previous which is putatively attributed to tha individual (who has no precedent for burglary btw).
That one was from a balcony this one is from a window. In that one items and values were taken and drawers searched, in this one they were not, instead usless item were strawn around.

But in fact the alleged burglary does not look like a burglary at all. It looks like a staging, which is something very common on house murders.

The point of entry is illogical, there is an extremely easy and safe way in on the rear of the house, repaired from view; statistics moreover show that almost all burglaries chose either ground floor or balconies; that entrance from wall climbing instead is difficult and hazardous, and exposed to view from road and parking a few meters away. Burglars just don't take such useless risks, especially when they have a balcony on the rear.
There is no soil inside the room (dark soil from the garden below);
there are no soeprints on the grass and on the earth below the window;
first thing buglaries do is search through drawers, and drawers in the house were not searched;
clothes and items of no interest for a burglar were taken from the wardrobe and scattered around the room: it makes no sense for a true thief;
there is no DNA and no fingerprints of the alleged burglar in the room;
only one room has traces of such apparent "search" by a burglar; but do usually burglars search one room only?
In that room, here is instead, surprisingly, a mixed trace of Meredith + Knox on two spots of luminol stains where there is no reason for DNA of such people to be there;
the glass shards on the window sill were not touched by the "burglar";
small and transportable values like jewels were not taken: how is it possible that he got interrupted so "early" to the point of not even searching drawers or take small values?
on a logical point of view, a burglar doesn't have a motive to commit rape, you can't deduce one thing from another; (there is no evidence Guede committed the a burglary anyway);
there are obvious physical traces of two different modus operandi on the scene, forming two sets of evidence, a series of dycothomies (some perpetrator was barefoot and walked with bare feet in bloody water, some other had shoes, for example);
the autopsy report, crossed with physical findings in the room, shows multiple perpetrators;
physical traces such as isolation of bathmat prints, shoeprints over alleged semen stain, trail of shoeprints not turning towards the door (which was locked instead) make it impossible to think about a lone perpetrator dynamic; think about the steps on semen stain on the pillow for example: you "placed" the victim on the pillow when she is already dying (instead you would require normal blood pressure to produce bruises), and then in your scenario the raper ejaculates on the pillow when the body is already lyin on it: but at that point, how could the murderer step on the pillow?

This is just to start, to see how looking at the evidence looks like.
 
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Don't forget that the Kerchers legal representative objected to the testing, I assume because of this reason.

Seriously, why should the Kerchers or any civil member be able to dictate what does or doesnt happen in a criminal investigation? Murder is not a crime against an individual but in fact is a capital crime against the state.
 
It makes no sense. You can't investigate a crime starting from a pre-set scenario.
That would be pure circular fallacy. If you assume a working scenario that is nonsense by your own definition, then by definition you state and conclude that the crime makes no sense.
You need to start from evidence.

The alleged break in is not similar to the previous which is putatively attributed to tha individual (who has no precedent for burglary btw).
That one was from a balcony this one is from a window. In that one items and values were taken and drawers searched, in this one they were not, instead usless item were strawn around.

But in fact the alleged burglary does not look like a burglary at all. It looks like a staging, which is something very common on house murders.

The point of entry is illogical, there is an extremely easy and safe way in on the rear of the house, repaired from view; statistics moreover show that almost all burglaries chose either ground floor or balconies; that entrance from wall climbing instead is difficult and hazardous, and exposed to view from road and parking a few meters away. Burglars just don't take such useless risks, especially when they have a balcony on the rear.
There is no soil inside the room (dark soil from the garden below);
there are no soeprints on the grass and on the earth below the window;
first thing buglaries do is search through drawers, and drawers in the house were not searched;
clothes and items of no interest for a burglar were taken from the wardrobe and scattered around the room: it makes no sense for a true thief;
there is no DNA and no fingerprints of the alleged burglar in the room;
only one room has traces of such apparent "search" by a burglar; but do usually burglars search one room only?
In that room, here is instead, surprisingly, a mixed trace of Meredith + Knox on two spots of luminol stains where there is no reason for DNA of such people to be there;
the glass shards on the window sill were not touched by the "burglar";
small and transportable values like jewels were not taken: how is it possible that he got interrupted so "early" to the point of not even searching drawers or take small values?
on a logical point of view, a burglar doesn't have a motive to commit rape, you can't deduce one thing from another; (there is no evidence Guede committed the a burglary anyway);
there are obvious physical traces of two different modus operandi on the scene, forming two sets of evidence, a series of dycothomies (some perpetrator was barefoot and walked with bare feet in bloody water, some other had shoes, for example);
the autopsy report, crossed with physical findings in the room, shows multiple perpetrators;
physical traces such as isolation of bathmat prints, shoeprints over alleged semen stain, trail of shoeprints not turning towards the door (which was locked instead) make it impossible to think about a lone perpetrator dynamic; think about the steps on semen stain on the pillow for example: you "placed" the victim on the pillow when she is already dying (instead you would require normal blood pressure to produce bruises), and then in your scenario the raper ejaculates on the pillow when the body is already lyin on it: but at that point, how could the murderer step on the pillow?

This is just to start, to see how looking at the evidence looks like.

Of course two different break-ins in two different buildings will have slight differences due to variations in topology and general stochastic factors, but the similarities are striking and can't be easily dismissed. They both involved difficult climbs. You agree the climb to the second story window was hazardous and difficult. The lawyer that worked in the burglarized law office testified that, and I quote (in English), that it was "absolutely not [an easy climb]." A large rock was used to smash the window in both instances. The lawyer testified the rock was "very heavy." Clothes were strewn on the floor in both instances. I have been the victim of burglary three times and not once have I had clothes thrown on the floor. These are distinct and idiosyncratic features whether you pretend they are not.

The same man connected by evidence to both those break-ins was also found in a previous unlawful entry carrying a stolen knife. So what we have here is a knife armed burglar with a penchant for rock throwing, window smashing, high climbing break-ins, found at a murder involving stabbing with a rock thrown window smashed high climb break-in. If this was a TV show he would be the red herring that is too obvious to be the real suspect. But that's the difference between TV and reality.

Looking at scattered remnants of random traces that can't ever be linearly connnected due to all the missing and variable information, and poking holes in that to raise doubts on the obvious crime that happened doesn't change anything for me. For some reason you need Amanda to be guilty and for you she always will be guilty. For me, if Amanda was guilty the crime would look very different and the evidence would be very different.
 
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I suppose. But maybe not. What if they found Martha Stewart's hand print. At a certain point a crime scenario just doesn't work.

There are plenty of murders which make no sense. If there was no motive yet the physical evidence was solid, I would consider the physical evidence first.
 
There are plenty of murders which make no sense. If there was no motive yet the physical evidence was solid, I would consider the physical evidence first.

I've never heard of a murder that doesn't make sense in the physical reality context of the phrase. An example of a murder that doesn't make sense would be someone murdered by a suspect that was on video across the world while the murder was taking place. I would put the scenario alleged by the prosecution slightly below that on the implausibility scale.
 
The point of entry is illogical, there is an extremely easy and safe way in on the rear of the house, repaired from view; statistics moreover show that almost all burglaries chose either ground floor or balconies; that entrance from wall climbing instead is difficult and hazardous, and exposed to view from road and parking a few meters away. Burglars just don't take such useless risks, especially when they have a balcony on the rear.
I wish you would stop telling falsehoods about the balcony at the cottage. It was totally exposed to the road and dwellings, and lit by a street-lamp.







As you can see, the area under Filomena's window is hidden and sheltered. And the entry is extremely doable by a moderately athletic young man. It says a lot that you have to misrepresent the evidence.

 
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I've never heard of a murder that doesn't make sense in the physical reality context of the phrase. An example of a murder that doesn't make sense would be someone murdered by a suspect that was on video across the world while the murder was taking place. I would put the scenario alleged by the prosecution slightly below that on the implausibility scale.

Tell me that the murder of Adrianne Jones is not pretty damn strange. May not be without a motive but I consider it an incredibly implausible motive.
 
I wish you would stop telling falsehoods about the balcony at the cottage. It was totally exposed to the road and dwellings, and lit by a street-lamp.

Thnx Bill. Sorry that I couldn't copy your URL of that first photo. Something about 15. Oh well. Fuq-it.

But in that [your] photo - (awesome photo! You be like the Canadian Surfer-Randy / Photog Dawg!). Note that people drive on the right-side of the road in Italy. Harder to see from Filomena's side in a car. Even easier to see from this side. Also: no side-walk on this side of the street. The cars driving are even closer to the fence.
 
I wish you would stop telling falsehoods about the balcony at the cottage. It was totally exposed to the road and dwellings, and lit by a street-lamp.


As you can see, the area under Filomena's window is hidden and sheltered. And the entry is extremely doable by a moderately athletic young man. It says a lot that you have to misrepresent the evidence.(..)

This is the problem with some of the pro-Knoxes. They deny the obvious.
The true burglaries that occurred at the cottage were through the balcony for a reason.
The Massei court visited the location themselves for a reason.
The balcony is not totally exposed. Absolutely not.
The closest point of the road from which one can see the balcony is more than 35 meters away, but nobody walks on that road and it's away from car lights.
It's dark, the closest street lamp is 22 meters far and the balcony is shielded by the house and the chestnut tree. The garden lamp couldn't illuminate the balcony and they were off.
Above all - in addition to darkness and distance - a balcony is a non suspicious place itself, where a human silhouette would never attract attention.
The balcony is also partly shielded from view completely from parking lot and from road, because there is a hidden corner, shielded from light and sight. The balcony would appear "exposed" to only to someone spotting it from a high position 90 meters away with a 150mm zoom. And yet such hypothetical viewer wouldn't have a reason for thinking that a human silhouette on the balcony is suspicious.
Stats say about 70% of burglaries are from ground floor, while almost all of remaining 30% are second store windows that are points of entries with a surface below them like a balcony or a roof.
Previous break ins at the cottage were from balcony, it's a fact.
Any common sense observer would notice that Filomena's room is an utterly illogical point of entry. Anyone, except the pro Knox advocates.
 
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This is the problem with some of the pro-Knoxes. They deny the obvious.
The true burglaries that occurred at the cottage were through the balcony for a reason.
The Massei court visited the location themselves for a reason.
The balcony is not totally exposed. Absolutely not.
The closest point of the road from which one can see the balcony is more than 35 meters away, but nobody walks on that road and it's away from car lights.
It's dark, the closest street lamp is 22 meters far and the balcony is shielded by the house and the chestnut tree. The garden lamp couldn't illuminate the balcony and they were off.
Above all - in addition to darkness and distance - a balcony is a non suspicious place itself, where a human silhouette would never attract attention.
The balcony is also partly shielded from view completely from parking lot and from road, because there is a hidden corner, shielded from light and sight. The balcony would appear "exposed" to only to someone spotting it from a high position 90 meters away with a 150mm zoom. And yet such hypothetical viewer wouldn't have a reason for thinking that a human silhouette on the balcony is suspicious.
Stats say about 70% of burglaries are from ground floor, while almost all of remaining 30% are second store windows that are points of entries with a surface below them like a balcony or a roof.
Previous break ins at the cottage were from balcony, it's a fact.
Any common sense observer would notice that Filomena's room is an utterly illogical point of entry. Anyone, except the pro Knox advocates.

Talk about shooting the messenger because you don't like the photos!!!

Machiavelli's response could have been shorter. "Be reasonable - see it my way." "Who are you going to believe? Me or your lying eyes?"

The weaker Machiavelli's point the more he blames others.
 
The true burglaries that occurred at the cottage were through the balcony for a reason.
Previous break ins at the cottage were from balcony, it's a fact.
LIES, LIES, LIES.
The cottage owner had to put Bars on the window where the break in occurred to prevent more burglaries.
" it's a fact." ITS A LIE.
Please provide documentation
It is still a lie, even if you(and the police) make up "Judicial truths"
 
This is the problem with some of the pro-Knoxes. They deny the obvious.
The true burglaries that occurred at the cottage were through the balcony for a reason.
The Massei court visited the location themselves for a reason.
The balcony is not totally exposed. Absolutely not.
The closest point of the road from which one can see the balcony is more than 35 meters away, but nobody walks on that road and it's away from car lights.
It's dark, the closest street lamp is 22 meters far and the balcony is shielded by the house and the chestnut tree. The garden lamp couldn't illuminate the balcony and they were off.
Above all - in addition to darkness and distance - a balcony is a non suspicious place itself, where a human silhouette would never attract attention.
The balcony is also partly shielded from view completely from parking lot and from road, because there is a hidden corner, shielded from light and sight. The balcony would appear "exposed" to only to someone spotting it from a high position 90 meters away with a 150mm zoom. And yet such hypothetical viewer wouldn't have a reason for thinking that a human silhouette on the balcony is suspicious.
Stats say about 70% of burglaries are from ground floor, while almost all of remaining 30% are second store windows that are points of entries with a surface below them like a balcony or a roof.
Previous break ins at the cottage were from balcony, it's a fact.
Any common sense observer would notice that Filomena's room is an utterly illogical point of entry. Anyone, except the pro Knox advocates.

Romanelli's window is actually the most protected, because of the orientation of the cottage. The balcony is a very unguarded view indeed. You might as well light yourself up like a Christmas tree whilst wearing a tee shirt proclaiming, "I'm a burglar, come and arrest me", if you break in there.
 
This is the problem with some of the pro-Knoxes. They deny the obvious.

The closest point of the road from which one can see the balcony is more than 35 meters away, but nobody walks on that road and it's away from car lights.
It's dark, the closest street lamp is 22 meters far and the balcony is shielded by the house and the chestnut tree. The garden lamp couldn't illuminate the balcony and they were off.

How far from the kids was Curatolo that dark night he watched them?

Didn't you say 30-50 meters? Was there a street lamp right next to them?

Why were the street lamps off? Same budget as the recording devices in the police station?
 
How far from the kids was Curatolo that dark night he watched them?

Didn't you say 30-50 meters? Was there a street lamp right next to them?

Why were the street lamps off? Same budget as the recording devices in the police station?

LOL! What did you tell us the street lamps were off!?
 
LOL! What did you tell us the street lamps were off!?

Oops it was the "garden lamp" according to Mach that was off.

ETA - If the "garden lamp" was off it could have been turned off by Rudi or Amanda in the morning or even Filomena when she arrived but regardless it doesn't matter.
 
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