The Historical Jesus III

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Really? You say I have said that about all other figures from ancient historical times? You say that I think all figures from that period are imaginary? Is that what you are claiming? That's what your words just accused me of!

Where have I ever suggested that I "always" "think of ancient historical figures" as merely fictions "parachuted into existence" by blatantly untrue self-contradictory arguments such as that which Craig was trying to produce? ... where did I ever suggested that everyone from the 1st century was fictional?

No, IanS, that's not what I'm saying. I specifically used Flavius Josephus, whose existence is not in dispute, so as to not give that impression. I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough.

I lol'd when I saw you using parachuted into because many moons ago while responding to you about your unique approach to historical figures I was going to go with a Star Trek analogy. That is all your historical personages don't seem to interact with any anybody else as if they have suddenly beamed down to Jerusalem or Rome. Everyone knows who they are but that is about it. They have no history and nothing can be inferred from their past existence living in a specific locale.

Anyway, I found it funny because parachuted into or beamed down kind of mean the same thing in this context. YMMV
 
The best explanation for Jesus of Nazareth is myth/fiction.

Christians of antiquity PUBLICLY declared for hundreds of years that THEIR Jesus was born of a Ghost.

The Roman Government and Christian cults did have a CONSENSUS that Jesus was God of God who came from heaven.

Based on the Consensus, the Best explanation for Jesus is mythology/fiction.

Jesus of Nazareth is a myth/fiction character like Romulus or Satan.
 
The best explanation for Jesus of Nazareth is myth/fiction.

Christians of antiquity PUBLICLY declared for hundreds of years that THEIR Jesus was born of a Ghost.

The Roman Government and Christian cults did have a CONSENSUS that Jesus was God of God who came from heaven.

Based on the Consensus, the Best explanation for Jesus is mythology/fiction.

Jesus of Nazareth is a myth/fiction character like Romulus or Satan.
Its impossible that you would argue in favour of a consensus that Jesus was a God. These Christians were obviously deluded. A Consensus that someone is a God, born of a virgin is worthless. It may be dismissed. Moreover Mark and John and Paul and the other Epistle writers don't share that consensus. They say nothing about the magic birth or even deny it.

Matthew and Luke who do have the nonsense birth story, also have sources, the genealogies, that identify Jesus as a descendant of the House of David through Joseph. Your consensus is of ignorant bigots, but of course if you are ever going to be Pope, you will have to keep on boosting the Christian consensus, I suppose.
 
The Roman Government and Christian cults did have a consensus that Jesus of Nazareth was God of God who came down from heaven.

But, long before the consensus with the Roman Goverment that Jesus was from heaven a writer under the name of Paul did ADMIT his Jesus was from heaven and God's Own Son.

Manuscripts with stories of Jesus, the disciples and Paul have been found and dated BEFORE the consensus of the Roman Government and Christians cults.

Papyri 46 [parts of the Pauline Corpus] and Papyri 75 [parts of gLuke and gJohn] were composed before the Roman Government conceded that Jesus was God of God from heaven and born of a Ghost.

Papyri 46 and Papyri 75 are in agreement that Jesus of Nazareth was God of God from heaven and born of a Ghost.

Jesus of Nazareth was PUBLICLY described as a myth/fiction character around the Roman Empire for hundreds of years before the Consensus with the Roman Government.

The best explanation for Jesus of Nazareth is myth/fiction from the beginning.

In effect, Jesus of Nazareth was ALWAYS WITHOUT historical data.

Jesus of Nazareth was ALWAYS a figure of Faith.
 
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It is in all respects very different from claims of a monster in Loch Ness.

There's no known case of any authentic huge "monster" in a landlocked lake. But wandering preachers who get put to death were ten a penny in Roman-occupied Judaea, as they have been in other times and places.

Actually there ARE similarities.

A viable population to account for sighting spanning centuries would mean there should be more sightings...which their aren't.

Also a viable population would require a large biomass for them to feed on...which Loch ness is not exactly known for.

A viable population would also suggest that at sometime a body of one of these beings would have washed up on the shore.

On the flip side of the debate are also examples of actual animals dismissed as myth:

1) 5th century BCE Greek explorer Hanno described "an island filled with savage people, most of them women, and covered on hair". Dismissed as a wild tale for centuries Hanno was account was vindicated in 1902. His savage hairy people are the mountain Gorilla.

2) Ancient Egyptians and African natives had stories of this animal that people called The African Unicorn; In 1901 the existence of the Okapi was finally confirmed.

3) Legends of white bears in the mountains of China had long been ignored as myth until the Giant Panda was shown to exist in 1869.

4) The Kraken was thought to exist only in myth despite Aristotle and Pliny the Elder writing about the remains of dead specimens. Today the giant squid is known to exist.

5) There were stories (dismissed as wild) of "land crocodiles" and "prehistoric monsters” on a certain island in Indonesia. In 1910 the Komodo dragon was formally documented.

6) Despite being used in the circuses of ancient Rome the tiger was regarded as a mythical animal in the Middle ages.
 
Its impossible that you would argue in favour of a consensus that Jesus was a God.

Uhh, you do realize you are arguing with dejudge who has been using the absurdity of the Triumphalist Jesus as why any Reductivist Jesus can't exist from the get go, right? For him this is par for the course.


These Christians were obviously deluded. A Consensus that someone is a God, born of a virgin is worthless. It may be dismissed. Moreover Mark and John and Paul and the other Epistle writers don't share that consensus. They say nothing about the magic birth or even deny it.

Well two passages by Paul do seem to deny a virgin birth (seed of David, born of woman NOT virgin) so that is not exactly true. Those passages along with Against Heresies do kick the whole demi-god thing out the window.

Matthew and Luke who do have the nonsense birth story, also have sources, the genealogies, that identify Jesus as a descendant of the House of David through Joseph.

Actually the virgin birth supporters claim that one of those genealogies is for Mary :boggled: They also handwave the Joseph genealogy with 'Joseph being Jesus’ legal (though not natural) father'. :boggled:

I agree with you it is silly but that is what the Christians who believe in the demi-god origin for Jesus do.

There are times I wonder if one of the other sects that held Jesus was simply a normal man chosen by God ala Moses or David had won how different the Christ Myth theory would be.
 
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The New Testament is 'cumulative elaboration' of a Christ myth that was anthropomorphized* ie. narratives about a celestial savior-Christ made into narratives about a 'human' who was sacrificed for salvation ie. to save.

The narratives about the resurrection are a version of narratives about a 2nd Coming.

* 'euhemerized'

The narratives were influenced by the Marcionite community; but to what extent is, at this stage, not clear.

There is plenty of discussion that some or all of the NT Gospels - Matthew, Luke, and possible also Mark - did not appear until after the reactions to Marcion.

The texts attributed to Tertullian, Irenaeus, Martyr, Ignatius, etc, are likely redacted, too.

The scriptoria were very active in those times.
 
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The New Testament is 'cumulative elaboration' of a Christ myth that was anthropomorphized* ie. narratives about a celestial savior-Christ made into narratives about a 'human' who was sacrificed for salvation ie. to save.

A transfiguring water walking son of a ghost from heaven and God Creator is not a human being.

The Gospels do not humanise the Jesus character they CONFIRM his mythology.

Matthew 1:18 ---Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

The author of gMatthew wanted his audience to know he was NOT writing about a human being but the product of a Ghost.

The author of gLuke even presented an Angel as a WITNESS that Mary was told her Son Jesus, that THING, would be the product of an overshadowing Ghost.

The NT is just a compilation of stories about a Ghost/God/man called Jesus.

Look in gMark.

The Ghost/man Jesus is walking on water and transfiguring like a ZOMBIE.

The Zombie Jesus will RISE from the dead just before gMark ends.

Paul was a Witness that ZOMBIE Jesus, the Lord from heaven, was resurrected by God on the THIRD day.
 
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It is the Pauline Corpus which was most likely developed AFTER Marcion.

Justin Martyr mentioned the "Memoirs of the Apostles" called Gospels, the Apocalypse of John, and also mentioned Marcion, but NEVER mentioned a single word about Paul, the Pauline Corpus, and the Pauline Gospel.

In Minucius Felix's "Octavius" Caecilius is converted to Christianity WITHOUT a single reference to the Pauline Corpus when Paul was supposed to be the FOUNDER of multiple Christian Churches with multiple documented Epistles and one of the most significant early evangelist in the Roman Empire.

Justin Martyr was a contemporary of Marcion and did not acknowledge any writings of Marcion.

It is also interesting to note that Tertullian in "Against Marcion" admitted that the writings which he claimed were composed by Marcion did NOT bear his name.

The Pauline Corpus are really ANTI-MARCIONITE writings fabricated in an attempt to claim Paul was a Witness of the Physical Bodily resurrection of Jesus.

Marcion preached that the Son of God had no birth and only appeared to have flesh.
Cheers.
 
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The Gospels do not humanise the Jesus character they CONFIRM his mythology.

Matthew 1:18 ---
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise[/u]: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.


The author of gMatthew wanted his audience to know he was NOT writing about a human being but the product of a Ghost.

The author of gLuke even presented an Angel as a WITNESS that Mary was told her Son Jesus, that THING, would be the product of an overshadowing Ghost.

The NT is just a compilation of stories about a Ghost/God/man called Jesus.

Look in gMark.

The Ghost/man Jesus is walking on water and transfiguring like a ZOMBIE.

The Zombie Jesus will RISE from the dead just before gMark ends.

Paul was a Witness that ZOMBIE Jesus, the Lord from heaven, was resurrected by God on the THIRD day.

The NT Gospels reflect the genesis of the stories: they show both development of the narrative and theology - elements of the Old Testament.

With borrowed concepts from Greco-Egyptian mythology; especially euhumerization ie. humanizing the gods.
 
The NT Gospels reflect the genesis of the stories: they show both development of the narrative and theology - elements of the Old Testament.

With borrowed concepts from Greco-Egyptian mythology; especially euhumerization ie. humanizing the gods.

Jesus could not be euhumerized because such a character was UNKNOWN as a God in Jewish, Roman, Greek or Egyptian mythology.

One can attempt to euhumerise KNOWN myth characters.

There is no known story of Jesus as God Creator before the Gospels.

And in addition, Jesus becomes God Creator in the LATER versions of the Gospels which is the complete opposite to euhumerization.
 
It is the Pauline Corpus which was most likely developed AFTER Marcion.

Justin Martyr mentioned the Memoirs of the Apostles called Gospels, the Apocalypse of John and also mentioned Marcion but NEVER mentioned a single word about Paul, the Pauline Corpus, and the Pauline Gospel.

Justin Martyr was a contemporary of Marcion and did not acknowledge any writings of Marcion.
From wikipedia -
Justin Martyr, in his First Apology (ca. 155) and Dialogue with Trypho (ca. 160), sometimes refers to written sources consisting of narratives of the life of Jesus and quotations of the sayings of Jesus as "memoirs of the apostles" (Greek: ἀπομνημονεύματα τῶν ἀποστόλων; transliteration: apomnêmoneúmata tôn apostólôn) and less frequently as gospels (Greek: εὐαγγέλιον; transliteration: euangélion) which, Justin says, were read every Sunday in the church at Rome
1 Apol. 67.3 –
"and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are being read as long as it is allowable".​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Martyr#Memoirs_of_the_apostles
and
Justin uses material from the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) in the composition of the First Apology and the Dialogue, either directly, as in the case of Matthew, or indirectly through the use of a gospel harmony, which may have been composed by Justin or his school. However, his use, or even knowledge, of the Gospel of John is uncertain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Martyr#Scriptural_sources
ans also
... excerpts from the Dialogue with Trypho of the baptism (Dial. 88:3,8) and temptation (Dial. 103:5–6) of Jesus, which are believed to have originated from the Dialogue of Jason and Papiscus, illustrate the use of gospel narratives and sayings of Jesus in a testimony source and how Justin has adopted these "memoirs of the apostles" for his own purposes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Martyr#Dialogue_of_Jason_and_Papiscus
as far as Martyr "NEVER mentioned a single word about Paul, the Pauline Corpus, and the Pauline Gospel", Wikipedia asserts this (cf. posts below)
Reflecting his opposition to Marcion, Justin's attitude toward the Pauline epistles generally corresponds to that of the later Church. In Justin's works, distinct references are found to Romans, 1 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians, and possible ones to Philippians, Titus, and 1 Timothy. It seems likely that he also knew Hebrews and 1 John.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Martyr#Letters
 
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Jesus could not be euhumerized because such a character was UNKNOWN as a God in Jewish, Roman, Greek or Egyptian mythology.

One can attempt to euhumerise KNOWN myth characters.
Of course the Jesus character was unknown in Jewish, Roman, Greek or Egyptian mythology.
But similar characters were: eg. Osirirs, Serapis, Isis, Horus.​

The Jesus character evolved relatively quickly; through the 2nd century.

That evolution involved euhemerization, albeit almost concurrent with the genesis of the narrative.

There is no known story of Jesus as God Creator before the Gospels.

And in addition, Jesus becomes God Creator in the LATER versions of the Gospels which is the complete opposite to euhumerization.
His deification is part of the development of the narrative: most if not All euhemerized characters remain as deities.
 
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From Theologian Michael Bird -
"Justin was acquainted with the Socratic tradition. He explicitly cites Plato and Xenophon,[1] and he could well have known Xenophon’s Memoirs of Socrates[2] and Plato’s “Socratic Dialogues” as they were highly esteemed among the philosophers that he debated with. Hardly unexpected given that many biographies were disseminated widely, not just in the Socratic tradition, but Pythagorean memoirs too, as circulated by the prominent historian Alexander Polyhistor in the middle of the first century in Rome. The philosopher Favorinus of Arelate (d. ca. 160), friend to Emperor Antoninus Pius, published his own “memoirs” around the same time that Justin was in Rome.[3] By using the term apomnemoneumata, Justin is the first, as far as we can tell, to liken the Gospels to the biographical tradition.[4] His attempt to approximate the Gospels to another known literary genre is [supposedly] ... our best clue to what type of literature that the Gospels were received as by their early readers. That is not to say that the Gospels are exactly modeled on any particular type of the biographical tradition, but the Gospels belonged to the same literary family.[5] I suggest that Justin’s equating the Gospels with the biographical memoirs of great philosophers is an apologetic ploy, designed to show that Christianity was a genuine philosophy, and that Christian accounts of Jesus contained cultural sophistication, but without sophistry.[6]"

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/euangelion/2012/10/justin-and-the-memoirs-of-the-apostles/

[1] Cf. Justin, 2 Apol. 10.5 (Plato’s Apology for Socrates); 10.8 (Socrates had some knowledge of Christ); 11.2-3 (Xenophon’s story of Herakles at the crossroads).

[2] Koester (Ancient Christian Gospels, 38-39) points out that the Latin designation for Xenophon’s biography of Socrates as Memorabilia,was not used until Johann Lenklau’s 1569 edition of Xenophon. Even so, the Greek title for the work, “First Book of Xenophon’s Memoirs of Socrates” was extant in some manuscripts and such a title, or a source like it, is probably what influenced Justin. <-wishful thinking by Bird

[3] David L. Dungan, A History of the Synoptic Problem: The Canon, the Text, the Composition, and the Interpretation of the Gospels (ABRL; New York: Doubleday, 1999), 31-32.

[4] Koester (Ancient Christian Gospels, 37-40) is of the opinion that Justin regarded the written Gospels as a more reliable account of Jesus’ words and deeds than extant oral traditions about Jesus. Indeed, in Koester’s perception, Justin sought to “replace” the oral Gospel with the written Gospels. Several problems count against that proposal: (1) Justin nowhere delineates a distinction between oral and written accounts of Jesus, so any attempt to regarded him as implicitly supplanting a continuing oral tradition with written texts is a category mistake. Justin does not even appear to differentiate authorized and unauthorized accounts of Jesus, and cites “other” Jesus traditions in isolated instances (see Dial. Tryph. 47.5; 78.5; 88.3). Justin argues, in fact, that the traditions of sayings and deeds of Jesus found in the “memoirs” are based on what Christ taught and transmitted to his followers (1 Apol. 4.7; 6.2; 8.3; 65.5; 66.1-3 [note the repeated use of paradidomi for "handing over" traditions); (2) Justin appears to know the Papian tradition of Mark's association with Peter in composing his Gospel and yet speak no ill of the tradents of the tradition (Dial. Tryph. 106.3); (3) Koester does not think that Justin's designation of the Gospels as "memoirs" was influenced by the Graeco-Roman biographical tradition, but derives instead from a view of the Gospels as based on ancient memory, as in Papias. In which case, it is surely odd that Justin is somehow critical of oral tradition, while using a key term from oral tradition, i.e., "memory," to designate the Gospels; and (4) Thus Koester's view is truly peculiar that Justin coined the term "memoirs" from Papias, but with a view to eclipsing the "living voice" esteemed by Papias, and likewise strange is the claim that Justin made appeals to "remembering" with an anti-Gnostic intention, perhaps aware of similar appeals to remembering in Apoc. Jas. 2.1-15, but Justin was unlikely to be unaware of the use "memoirs" by the Second Sophist. Would Justin have been more likely to have encountered the Apocryphon of James than Xenophon's biography of Socrates? It is far more likely that Justin's use of "memoirs" was influenced by both the general tradition, known also to Papias, that the Gospels were based on apostolic memory, and also by the Socratic biographical tradition (so also Dungan, History of the Synoptic Problem, 33; Hengel, Four Gospels and the One Gospel of Jesus Christ, 212 n. 13).

[5] Note the words of Martin Hengel (Acts and the History of Earliest Christianity [Philadelphia: Fortress, 1980], 29):
“The ancient reader will probably have been well aware of the differences in style and education, say, between Mark and Xenophon; but he will also have noticed what the gospels had in common with the literature of biographical ‘reminiscences’ ‒ and unlike the majority of German New Testament scholars today, he did not mind at all regarding the evangelists as authors of biographical reminiscences of Jesus which went back to the disciples of Jesus themselves.”​

[6] Justin calls Christianity “philosophy safe and simple” (Dial. Tryph. 8.1), he extols Christians as those “who have lived in accordance with the Divine Reason” (1 Apol. 46), and regards Jesus as a great philosophical teacher by drawing attention to the brevity rather than bombastic nature of Jesus’ teaching (Dial. Tryph. 18.1; 1 Apol. 14.4). See Stanton, Jesus and Gospel, 103-5; Dungan, History of the Synoptic Problem, 32.
 
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From DM Murdock/Ascharya S -
The Gospels and the Gospel

In all of Justin’s extant writings, the word “gospels” appears only once, in his First Apology, while the word “gospel” is used twice in his book Dialogue with Trypho the Jew. Concerning the references to “the Gospel” in Trypho, which some have taken for knowledge of the canonical gospels, the Church father evidently is referring to another text altogether.

An excellent study on the subject of when verbatim quotes from various Christian texts begin to appear in the historical record may be found in the thick tome by Walter Richard Cassels called Supernatural Religion (1905), which includes an 85-page, detailed study of Justin’s work vis-à-vis the canonical gospels, with the original Greek and Latin, along with copious notes and citations. Concerning the appearance of the world “gospels” (εὐαγγέλια or evangelia), as applicable to the text Justin quotes called the “Memoirs of the Apostles,” Cassels (186) states:

The title, 'Memoirs of the Apostles', by no means indicates a plurality of Gospels. A single passage has been pointed out in which the Memoirs are said to have been called εὐαγγέλια in the plural: “For the Apostles in the Memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels,” etc. The last expression, ἁ καλειται εὐαγγέλια [“which are called Gospels”], as many scholars have declared, is probably an interpolation. It is, in all likelihood, a gloss on the margin of some old MS. [manuscript] which copyists afterwards inserted in the text. If Justin really stated that the Memoirs were called Gospels, it seems incomprehensible that he should never [elsewhere] call them so himself. In no other place in his writings does he apply the plural to them, but, on the contrary, we find Trypho [in Justin’s Dialogue with Trypho] referring to the “so-called Gospel,” which he states that he has carefully read, and which, of course, can only be Justin’s “Memoirs”; and, again, in another part of the same dialogue, Justin quotes passages which are written “in the Gospel” (εν τω ευαγγελίω γέγραπται). The term “Gospel” is nowhere else used by Justin in reference to a written record. In no case, however, considering the numerous Gospels then in circulation, and the fact that many of these, different from the canonical Gospels, are known to have been exclusively used by distinguished contemporaries of Justin, and by various communities of Christians in that day, could such an expression be taken as a special indication of the canonical Gospels.

“The one instance of ‘gospels’ in Justin appears to be a scribal marginal gloss and explanatory note that was interpolated into the text.”

As we can see, the one instance of “gospels” in Justin appears to be a scribal marginal gloss and explanatory note that was interpolated into the text. Otherwise, it would be impossible to explain why Justin only uses this word once in all of his writings. Hence, the term’s appearance in his book is not an identification by Justin himself of the Memoirs with the gospels. The other “gospel” usages in Justin concern a single text commonly understood in his circle as “the Gospel,” possibly the text Justin calls the 'Memoirs of the Apostles'.

http://freethoughtnation.com/does-justin-martyr-quote-the-gospels/

Later she writes -
Was Justin Martyr sloppy?

If Justin actually had the canonical gospels before him when writing his texts, he could only be considered sloppy in his citations, which is the accusation made to explain why his “Memoirs” differs so much from the gospels. The reality is that [this] Church father is surprisingly consistent and conscientious in his quotation elsewhere. For example, as I state in SOG, Martyr quotes from the Old Testament 314 instances, 197 of which he names the particular book or author, equaling an impressive two-thirds of the total amount. Several of the other 117 instances may not have needed citation, “considering the nature of the passage.” Despite his remarkably fastidious record, when Justin is supposedly quoting the New Testament, he mentions none of the four gospels. Instead, he distinctly states that the quotes are from the “Memoirs.” Since he is careful in his quotation of the Old Testament, it is reasonable to assume that he is accurately citing the “Memoirs” and that such a book is not the same as any of the texts found in the New Testament. There could be no reason why Martyr would not cite the gospel books by name, unless he was not using them. Since he never mentions the four gospels, it is logical to assert that he had never heard of them. Thus, the Memoirs text is not the same as the canonical gospels, and the mention of and quotation from this book does not serve as evidence of the existence of the gospels ....

The facts are that the terms “gospels” and “gospel” in Justin do not indicate his knowledge of our canonical gospels; that the quotes from the Memoirs of the Apostles are not the same as those in the canonical gospels; and that the term “Memoirs” appears to refer to a single text, like “Acts of the Apostles,” rather than serving as a reference to the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, whom Justin does not mention or even seem to know. In the final analysis, it is evident that Justin Martyr does not quote the canonical gospels and that, despite the wishful thinking, these texts do not emerge clearly in the historical record until the end of the second century.
 
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The discovery of manuscripts with stories of Jesus BEFORE the Roman Government took control and accepted the teachings of the Jesus cults are extremely significant.

Who was Jesus before the Roman Government conceded he was God of God from heaven and born of a Ghost?

Did the Roman Government invent Myth Jesus [God Creator, the Logos] in the 4th century?

Based on the discovery of Papyri 46 and Papyri 75 Jesus was a well established Myth God Creator since around the 2nd-3rd century.

Jesus of Nazareth was a MYTH God Creator for at least or close to 150 years BEFORE the consensus or intervention of the Roman Government.

Papyri 75 is dated to c 175-225 CE and states or implies Jesus was God Creator from the beginning.

http://nttranscripts.uni-muenster.de/AnaServer?NTtranscripts+0+start.anv

Papyri 75
εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος ουτος ην εν αρχη προς τον θεον
παντα δι αυτου εγενετο και χωρις αυτου εγενετο ουδε εν ο γεγονεν..

It is most unlikely that there was any historical data for Jesus of Nazareth when Christians were preaching and teaching that Jesus was the Logos, God Creator, from the beginning.

The mere fact that Christians argued successfully that Jesus was God Creator WITHOUT the help of the Roman Government is evidence that people in the Roman Empire had NO actual historical evidence of Jesus as a man who died as a criminal or blasphemer.

It would have made no sense for people of the Roman Empire to accept a KNOWN dead criminal or blasphemer as God Creator if Tacitus and Josephus had recorded that Jesus was indeed a known dead man.

If the Roman Government had historical data from Tacitus and Josephus to show Jesus was ONLY a DEAD man then the Jesus cult might as well commit suicide.

The discovery of Papyri 46 and Papyri 75 dated to the 2nd-3rd century where Jesus is God Creator is evidence that Tacitus Annals and Josephus Antiquities of the Jews have been manipulated or did not refer to Jesus of Nazareth.

The Jesus cult would have been total suicidal IDIOTS, the LAUGHING STOCK, of the Roman Empire if they were preaching that a KNOWN documented DEAD man was NOT ONLY God but God Creator from the beginning.

Jesus of Nazareth NEVER EVER had any history.

Jesus of Nazareth was ALWAYS a character of Faith.
 
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Fragment of Papias -

  • mentions John/s, Mark, & Matthew; but not Luke or Paul.
  • also mentions Peter, one of the James, Phillip, Thomas, Judas, Aristion, Revelation, himself (3rd person?), Irenaeus(?), Methodius, Hippolytus, the Alexandrians Pantaenus & Clement; Ammonius; Gregory Theologus, and Cyril.
No mention of Jesus! but 4 uses of 'Christ'

by 'Papias of Hierapolis' (c. 70-163 AD/CE d. Smyrna); supposedly a student of the Apostle John

_____________________________________________

Apology to Autolycus in 3 Books by 'Theophilus of Antioch' (d. 181)

1st mention of the notion of the 'Trinity', but no mention of Jesus Christ

_____________________________________________
 
And in addition, Jesus becomes God Creator in the LATER versions of the Gospels which is the complete opposite to euhumerization.
Eh? That's what I've been saying here for years, and you've been arguing that he was God from the beginning!
1. Atheists have NEVER EVER conceded that Jesus Christ existed as a mere man with a human father.
2. Jews have NEVER EVER conceded that Jesus Christ existed as a mere man with a human father.
3. Christians have NEVER EVER conceded that Jesus Christ existed as a mere man with a human father.
4. Historians have NEVER EVER conceded that Jesus Christ existed as a mere man with a human father.
5. Agnostics have NEVER EVER conceded that Jesus Christ existed as a mere man with a human father.
It is an established falsehood, propaganda and Chinese Whispers that there is a consensus that Jesus existed as a mere man with a human father.
Now you agree with me that there are multiple sources in the Gospels, and only in the later ones is he a "creator". Have you had a brain storm? Or do you now see the error of your former ways?
 
Originally Posted by dejudge
And in addition, Jesus becomes God Creator in the LATER versions of the Gospels which is the complete opposite to euhumerization.
Eh? That's what I've been saying here for years, and you've been arguing that he was God from the beginning!
The story developed, as you said -

there are multiple sources in the Gospels
Whether he is [eventually] conflated with the creator god is beside the point.
 
From DM Murdock/Ascharya S -


Later she writes -
Acharya S is a charlatan or lunatic peddler of outlandish woo and drivel. Even the mythicists tend to treat her with extreme reserve. Her description of her qualifications in her website has all the hallmarks of charlatanry. Read this from wiki.
Acharya S was criticized by Joel McDurmon, in part for the premise that Jesus was based on ancient sun gods because of the modern English homophones son and sun. Atheist activist and fellow Christ mythicist Richard Carrier criticized her use of the inscriptions at Luxor to make the claim that the story of Jesus birth was inspired by the Luxor story of the birth of Horus. Acharya S produced a rejoinder to Carrier's critique in which she describes the importance of the ancient Egyptian narratives of the birth of gods such as the one described at Luxor, the connections that existed between Egypt and the ancient Hebrew people and asks "[C]ould the creators of Christianity really have been oblivious to them?"
 
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