Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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So Hellman was reversed because not testing a knife sample was inconsistent with an acquittal, because they did not commit the act?

Yet Nencini had it retested as instructed, and came to the opposite conclusion of guilt, yet his verdict was internally consistent?

I think the convicting Italian judges, prosecutors, police, and bogus witnesses, should all be renditioned to Guantanimo, and water boarded until they spill the beans on what went on in this case. I know its wrong, but that's how I feel.

Hellmann was not reversed. It was annulled.
It will remain void and null forever btw. While all points made by Chieffi will remain valid (also binding to the 5th section).

"they did not commit the act" is only a formula subjected to art. 530.2. It's not a finding.

But your rant is not worth an answer, not that I think about it.
 
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That trial is dead in the water. Nothing will come of it. And when the ECHR rules, the whole dirty, sorry, messy, stilted remains of the nasty poisonous callunia fascism will crumble into dust.

Dream, my friend. The trial exists, may other things exist, and now is now.
 
Then you would have required test the alleged semen stain (but you are not me, or the juges who think like me).

But your statement above just confirms you are accusing Hellmann/Zanetti and Marasca/Bruno of severe inconsistency.

You are admitting that they should have ordered to test the semen stain at least, before coming to any conclusion that there was no evidence.

The semen had to be tested prior to trial...no discussion. It is the State's duty to collect and process ALL forensic evidence that might be used in a trial. If the State processed the semen and do not "discover" it, it has to be assumed by the court that the test result favours the accused.

It goes without saying that the defence does not need to prove that the semen does not belong to Sollecito. It's the the State's duty to prove that the semen belongs to (or somehow incriminates) the accused. They didn't do this so by inference they concede this "non-evidence" in favour of the defence.

Judge Hellmann and Marasca correctly ignored the semen as it was not introduced as evidence and therefore has no value to the case.

I apologise to those who have probably laboured this issue at length with Mach., and only reintroduce it in an attempt to stop Mach., from red his herring arguments about insisting that there is somehow a duty on a Judge to have the semen tested.

Is Italian Law so different or is it that Mach. is not legally proficient?
 
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Amanda Knox is under trial in Italy right now. You probably live on another planet.
It's not me, it's the Kercher, and the truth. Nothing of the kind you dream has even been "written", and you know that.

Machiavelli - similar to your (somewhat misguided) complaint about acbytesla.....

By your own admission NOTHING has been written in Italy about the "truth" you claim, not in the Italian language anyway, and by your own awareness not on parallel forums like this one. So acbytesla can venture an opinion, just like you venture yours.....

So - how would any of us here, in the English language away from Italy - even know what is or what isn't "written"? You claim that acbytesla "knows that", yet you yourself cannot point to anything either way - so it is a very strange argument you try to make in your post.

My view is that the remaining parasitical prosecutions begun by Mignini and others will simply fall by the way-side. Time will tell, though. Still it would be strange for any of those prosecutions to go ahead and in at least one of them have Mignini himself on the stand and subject to cross-examination.

If there IS anyone in Italy talking about this in Italian.... which you say there isn't.... I wonder what they'd say about a predatory-prosecutorial one-man wrecking-crew under cross examination.

One thing I'll agree with you - none of this has been written. Even you admit this is not creating much of an internet "buzz" in Italy. Perhaps that's the reason why you have to post in English because this is the only game in town.
 
*Sigh*

Machiavelli is apparently oblivious to the deep irony here. In making these extreme claims about the likes of Hellmann and Vecchiotti, he is signally failing to realise that if his claims are correct, then this in and of itself indicates fundamental corruption, mismanagement and unfitness-for-purpose of the Italian criminal justice system as it relates to this trial. And that, in itself, would be a damning verdict on the system and a gigantic red flag in regard to whether Knox and Sollecito were ever able to receive a fair trial.

Whether they are receivinng a fair trial should be a matter for ECHR, and secondary to the fact they are guilty.

Either way, the system stinks, and is indefensible:

But the system is not on trial. Nobody has a sovreignity to put a system on trial.

Hellmann and Vecchiotti were either fair, correct and just (in which case the judges before them, and the first SC ruling after them, were either incompetent or corrupt or both), or they were incompetent and/or corrupt themselves and were appointed corruptly by higher, more powerful figures in the Italian judiciary who were therefore probably either incompetent or corrupt themselves as well. Either way, it's a shocking state of affairs. Italy ought to be ashamed of itself in respect of the way this case was handled by its laughable criminal justice system.

Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are subjected to "the system" whether it is laughable or not to you, and there is evidence of their guilt beyond reasonable doubt whatever one thinks about "the system".
 
Hellmann was not reversed. It was annulled.
It will remain void and null foreved btw. While all points made by Chieffi will remain valid (also binding to the 5th section).

"they did not commit the act" is only a formula subjected to art. 530.2. It's not a finding.

But your rant is not worth an answer, not that I think about it.

Please do forgive my rant.

I did respond to a number of your posts. Care to try any of the others?

I'm especially interested in the info relating to MOF, etc.
 
Machiavelli - similar to your (somewhat misguided) complaint about acbytesla.....

By your own admission NOTHING has been written in Italy about the "truth" you claim, not in the Italian language anyway, and by your own awareness not on parallels forums like this one.

(...)

No.
You always try to make a step beyond the borderline. I did *not* "admit" things about what had "not been written".
I have mentioned Marco Travaglio's article the following day because I've read it, for example, which is not "nothing". I've noted a few elements that are part of the current legal ladnscape. I've said that I never searched for Italian forums and thus I am not aware.
This is what I've said, and not a word more than that.

However, I am not here to talk about what others talk about.
 
Amanda Knox is under trial in Italy right now. You probably live on another planet.
It's not me, it's the Kercher, and the truth. Nothing of the kind you dream has even been "written", and you know that.

Huh?? Do you hear yourself? Amanda is NOT in Italy. She is in the US. She was found not guilty of involvement in Meredith's murder. While the weasel Mignini is prosecuting Amanda for Callunia.. (not murder) She is INNOCENT of murder. That is written in stone.

Everyone agrees that NOTHING will come of trying Amanda for callunia. This case demonstrates not only how disgusting Mignini is but the flaws in your system. This is being pursued for personal issues. Mignini is trying to vindicate himself or is out for revenge. Either way, it is moronic and an amazing waste of taxpayer's money.
 
Whether they are receivinng a fair trial should be a matter for ECHR, and secondary to the fact they are guilty.



But the system is not on trial. Nobody has a sovreignity to put a system on trial.

That is your mistake Mach. The system should always be on trial. It should always be open to examination and review. It is only through honest self reflection that we may improve. But you know what they say Machiavelli? Admitting you have a problem is always the hardest part.
 
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Whether they are receivinng a fair trial should be a matter for ECHR, and secondary to the fact they are guilty.



But the system is not on trial. Nobody has a sovreignity to put a system on trial.



Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are subjected to "the system" whether it is laughable or not to you, and there is evidence of their guilt beyond reasonable doubt whatever one thinks about "the system".

It makes much more logical sense that the corrupt side of the court was the side motivated to protect their careers and reputation by continuing the prosecution of an innocent woman they had already falsely interrogated, accused, and imprisoned, and not the side somehow corrupted to free a random American murderer the entire country hates for no reason.
 
That is your mistake Mach. The system should always be on trial. It should always be open to examination and review. It is only through honest self reflection that we may improve. But you know what the say Machiavelli? Admitting you have a problem is always the hardest part.

The system is not on trial, Stefanoni s no on trial.... so one must simply blindly accept their offerings.

If the system were not on trial, then there'd be no need for appeals' courts. In Italy the system is so much on trial at every step that any lower court verdict is only provisional - in all courts from north to south, from Venice to Sicily: until the central court, the Supreme Court gets to put the lower courts "on trial". Hellmann's court certainly was "on trial" with the Chieffi Section of ISC.

Once again, Machiavelli is talking nonsense.
 
In what judgements were Mignini's theories on Narducci confirmed by the courts?

Well, just to start, basically in both the Narducci investigations lead by Mignini.
Because you know there were two Narducci investigation files: the first was for the murder of Narducci, it was started after the unburial of Narducci's body. The second was on the side trackings, the corpses exchange.

The first investigation was the most complex one, ended as Mignini asked for the archiviation without indicting anyone. He slated some formal suspects (Calamandrei, Spezi, others) and asked the preliminary judge to not indict anyone because elements were not sufficient to indict specific people. However, that research made great findings about the truth, there were sufficient elements to conclude that the body picked at the lake was not Narducci's, that F.Narducci was killed, and also that Narducci was involved with the MoF murders.
Mignini submitted a 64-page document with the summary of such investigation.
The preliminary judge De Roberti accepted wholly Mignini's conclusions, and she issued a 12-page motivations order of archiviation which is now judicial truth. Calamandrei and Spezi appealed at the Supreme Court to have this document annulled, but the SC rejected their appeal.

Subsequently, in the second investigation Mignini asked to indict 20 people. Micheli rejected the requests and dropped all charges. Mignini appealed at the Supreme Court. This time the SC accepted Mignini's appeal, and annulled almost all of Micheli's dropping of charges; it only accepted the dropping of "criminal association" (mafia) charge, but re-instated all the other 21 charges. The "criminal association" charge was dismissed in point of law, because it's a charge with very peculiar legal elements, while the charges about the single crimes committed by the conspirators were all re-instated. Several of those charges however meanwhile had expired, the Cassazione noted recent expiration for some of them (thanks to Micheli's 1-year delay before depositing the motivations), other expired shortly afterwards.
The last of Spezi's charge was dropped on request of prosecutor Duchini as it expired as well. Brizioli's charge instead still stands, and now he is under trial.
The poin it SC anyway accepted Mignini's investigation was valuable and correct, although, being a Cassazione rulling, it did not get so much into the merits of body swaps and evidence assessment as the De Roberti ruling did.

Another trial which confirmed Mignini's theory was the Ticchioni case, which was a defamation case where the judge found out that a testimony by a fisherman who witnessed the body "placing" was authentic.

There was another case in Milan, this one a calunnia case against Spezi, that ended with the court of Milan acknowledging that Mignini's investigation was correct and the body swap actually occurred and called that a "fact".

The double body swap? Criminal association among the Florence 20? How were Mignini's theories approved, and which ones?

See above.

When did the MOF case get re-opened? Who is leading the investigation, Giuttari? I thought Calamandrei had died? Who is Reinecke? Will they be testing the "Scopetti Rag", a blood stained rag from a crime scene, through modern DNA techniques?

The investigation on the "masterminds" is now opened and focused on deceased Reinecke, a resident of Villa La Sfacciata, he is the man who found the two young men in the van. Mario Vanni before dying also accused a black man, an American citizen and a homosexual, who used to live together with Reinecke, naming him as the man who physically shot some victims. The man has also died of AIDS meanwhile.
Reinecke owned a motor boat at the Trasimeno lake and he was caught with a series of illegally detained firearms. He used to be a fanatic of exhoterism, used to dress in black and wear gold medallions portraying the devile, his second wife claimed she detected the minivan murders thanks to her paranormal powers.

I also thought Italian TV was softening up the public for the acquittals in the weeks before the verdict, through the coverage on TV. Especially having Dr Peter Gill to explain the errors in DNA interpretation by the Chieffi court in requiring contamination to be proven. And the positive and sympathetic coverage of Raffaele and also Amanda.

Indeed everything talked about a "political" verdict, but the Porta a Porta show included Roberta Bruzzone who pointed out that Knox was certainly guilty. And was not about "sympathy" for Amanda, it was instead about the "separation of evidence" between Sollecito and Knox.

By the way, I saw a post on an internet blog claiming every single reference on Roberta Bruzza(?)'s resume was falsified. She's the tall woman who looks like a model and claims to be a forensic expert, and was claiming she thought Raf was guilty. Do you know anything about this, and is it rrue she was allowed to testify in an actual court case as an expert, while in fact she was and is a complete fraud? (Her response to being exposed as a fraud, was that she was being stalked).

Roberta Bruzzone is a criminologist and a criminal profiler, not a forensic expert. I have no clue whether she is a fraud. Anyway defence experts are all liars, they get paid for that.
 
That is your mistake Mach. The system should always be on trial. It should always be open to examination and review. It is only through honest self reflection that we may improve. But you know what they say Machiavelli? Admitting you have a problem is always the hardest part.

The pro-Knoxes ara a mass of deluded and liars, prejudicial and ignorant xenophobes who protect murderers and push vicious campaigns against innocents.
The English speaking media that were charlatans on the Kercher case are in no position to lecture sovereign systems.
 
Bill Williams said:
Machiavelli - similar to your (somewhat misguided) complaint about acbytesla.....

By your own admission NOTHING has been written in Italy about the "truth" you claim, not in the Italian language anyway, and by your own awareness not on parallels forums like this one.

(...)

No.
You always try to make a step beyond the borderline. I did *not* "admit" things about what had "not been written".
I have mentioned Marco Travaglio's article the following day because I've read it, for example, which is not "nothing". I've noted a few elements that are part of the current legal ladnscape. I've said that I never searched for Italian forums and thus I am not aware.
This is what I've said, and not a word more than that.

However, I am not here to talk about what others talk about.

Sigh.

Machiavelli - I've been asking you for two day now for some sign, any sign, that there's an Italian-language hue and cry in Italy. I'd wondered why you hadn't included reference to Travaglio's article.... so, all right, there's one. One in the last 4 1/2 months.

Does Travaglio believe that there was an American media conspiracy, mediated through the Masons, to corrupt the Hellmann court? Does Travaglio regard Hellmann, Zanetti, Vecchiotti and perhaps the whole of Section 5 of Cassazione as criminals?

I have searched for Italian forums. More to the point one was pointed out to me in PM. That forum contains no hue and cry, albeit I've had to use Goodle-translate..... so perhaps when the English appears on my screen from the translated Italian which says, "Simply put there was no evidence AK and/or RS were involved," or that the ISC in March 2015 came to the right decision.......

Why are you not there correcting them? Shouldn't they know that Hellmann, Zanetti, Vecchiotti and perhaps the whole of Section 5 of Cassazione are criminals?

Why wouldn't you search for Italian forums and post to them? You could well end up changing my mind on this whole thing and the scales could fall from my eyes.

What does that accomplish?
 
The pro-Knoxes ara a mass of deluded and liars, prejudicial and ignorant xenophobes who protect murderers and push vicious campaigns against innocents.
The English speaking media that were charlatans on the Kercher case are in no position to lecture sovereign systems.

Ah, er - which legal system in which country has found that they are murderers? You do know the definition of defamation, do you not?
 
Huh?? Do you hear yourself? Amanda is NOT in Italy. She is in the US. She was found not guilty of involvement in Meredith's murder. While the weasel Mignini is prosecuting Amanda for Callunia.. (not murder) She is INNOCENT of murder. That is written in stone.

It is not written anywhere.
What is written in stone is that she is a malicious liar, and that Guede did not hold the murder weapon. That is actually written in stone from a legal point of view.
"innocence" of Knox is not written anywhere. As for that, she is as "innocent" as OJ Simpson.


Everyone agrees that NOTHING will come of trying Amanda for callunia.

"Everyone"?

This case demonstrates not only how disgusting Mignini is but the flaws in your system. (...)

Knox is a murderer, a liar and an obvious sociopath. You are not going to argue agaisnt that by squirming against the system.
 
Ah, er - which legal system in which country has found that they are murderers? You do know the definition of defamation, do you not?

Well, all courts of merits, just to start.
I will call them murderers, I will always publicly say there is evidence of their guilt beyond reasonable doubt. Are you going to object?
 
Opponent? :( Annoying :p

ETA - since you mentioned my name - the video of Stef saying that seminal fluids needed to be tested doesn't seem of any consequence. She is not talking about the stain under the pillow because it was discovered later by Vinci and was a fluid.


You are making an erroneous assumption that Vinci ORIGINALLY had to discover the stain by using a crimescope on the pillowcase. However, as these images prove, the semen stain was clearly visible to the naked eye.

(Clearly, Vincini merely had re-discovered evidence that the prosecution had tried to bury):

sperma_e_orma_ultima_p18.jpg


During a rape-murder investigation, it seems implausible that even Stefanoni would have missed that VISIBLE stain directly below Kercher's pubic area.

Read more about the pillow's stain here:

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/failed-sexual-assault-investigation/
 
Sigh.

Machiavelli - I've been asking you for two day now for some sign, any sign, that there's an Italian-language hue and cry in Italy. I'd wondered why you hadn't included reference to Travaglio's article.... so, all right, there's one. One in the last 4 1/2 months.

Does Travaglio believe that there was an American media conspiracy, mediated through the Masons, to corrupt the Hellmann court? Does Travaglio regard Hellmann, Zanetti, Vecchiotti and perhaps the whole of Section 5 of Cassazione as criminals?

I have searched for Italian forums. More to the point one was pointed out to me in PM. That forum contains no hue and cry, (...)

And I repeat: in what basis you assume there should be some "hue and cry"?
This is completely arbitrary. You don't know really much about Italy, certainly not about similar cases, do you?
 
You are making an erroneous assumption that Vinci ORIGINALLY had to discover the stain by using a crimescope on the pillowcase. However, as these images prove, the semen stain was clearly visible to the naked eye. (...)

It's the defence position that Vinci "discovered" the stain through crimescope in 2009. I don't believe it neither.
 
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