Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[analemma]

You can call it xenophobic if you like.

Because it's a prejudicial delusional rant. Everything is false and raving but also profoundly ignorant, just as your latest "count" of days:
Art. 617 CPP says motivations from Cassazione are to be released within 30 days. But I guess you are even incapable of reading it.

Nothing is false and this forum has shown, numerous times, that all of these tricks and deceptions and dirty Italian Tricks have been used by the Italian Justice system: It is just that you deny it, but they all happened.
I do not care what "Art. 617 CPP" or any other piece of Italian nonsense says, in this case there has NEVER been a motivation released in 30 days.
Your tactic in this regard is to quote some obscure rule that everyone always ignores and act as if the disregarded rule is the way the world works.
This is what we come to expect from the poster who is always incorrect about the decisions that are made by very legal system he proports to understand.

 

[Bill Williams]

You are coming back again and again attempting to make the same point: you are trying to "count" possible "silent" people as if they were people in agreement with your ideas. This obsession of yours is returning again and again.

For heaven's sake, Machiavelli, where have I even implied that I think people who are "silent" are, in fact, agreeing with me?

Complete strawman argument. Very definition of.

What I have said, please check again, is where is the "hue and cry" of support for the ideas you present here? For instance, I have no doubt that Maresca probably thinks as you do..... but unlike the judges who went public (Hellmann) to protest the fantasies of Nencini, etc., where O where are the guilters in Italy, in the Italian language doing the same in support of Nencini or Massei, or Mignini or Stefanoni? Can you point to something Maresca has written, that should be a good start? What about an ItalianTV exposure of guilt and corruption in the Marasca/Bruno Court? (Crickets.)

You keep predicting doom and gloom for Vecchiotti. Where's the doom? Where the gloom? More to the point, where is ANYONE in the Italian language saying what you say in English?

Certainly not you. You say that you are unaware of ANY Italian forum with ANY talk that supports you.

Does this mean that the entire population of Italy (minus one) agrees with me? Of course not. It is a stupid strawman argument to suggest I implied that.

If Italian television is any indication, the shows I saw leading up to the Marasca/Bruno acquittals openly mocked people like Mignini and a group which was arguably, "the party of he PMs" within the judiciary. One fellow on Italian TV mocked them and opening dared them to come get him for mocking them.

I've seen no equivalent from your side of the fence, and even you say there is no public, or internet discussion at all..... much less a hue and cry - like what Hellmann did after the Chieffi panel ruled and after Nencini ruled. Is anyone going after Hellmann or Zanetta?

You keep claiming that things like that are in the works, but so far your arguments are singular, and in English on English language forums. And even you concede that you know of no other such Italian language hue and cry.

What possible good does that do?

 

[RWVBWL]

The CSM intends to vote new rules to prevent magistrates that come from political experiences, of the Marasca type, from coming back into the judiciary and take inportant posts. The president of CSM already launched an alarm in 2014 about "political magistrates", pointing out that "some administrations" put magistrates among their ministers in order to reassure citizens, so that some magistrates would serve on political posts to legitimize "corrupt administrations", and the rules allowed to exploit their political career subsequently to advance their career in the judiciary. So the "Marasca alarm" is nothing that new. Political mess exists, as well as movements within the judiciary, and there are complex fights going on.

Hi Machiavelli,
I posted a link here to your live tweets when the ISC was ready to announce the results,
your were there on Wed, but not Friday, I seem to recall,
right?

Question for you.
Did you bitch + complain about what you wrote above before the Final Judgment came down,
or only afterwards, when it did not go your way?

Same for The Hellmann Court.
I seem to recall all of you Pro-Guilt folks being excited before it happened,
Did I miss all of you folks bitchin' and complaining about C + V
before the Appeal Trial commenced.

Or was it only afterwards,
when trial got under way and things did not go your way?
Just wonderin'...

Have a nice Wednesday,
RW

 

[Machiavelli]

Hi Grinder,
here's a link to part 2 of the Nov. 3rd CrimeScene video.
https://mega.co.nz/#!fwo3UbDS!YpT6M0rQJiaKKLy6HjZ8XrfB69YrKpgFCIVGaHckejw

Download and watch the original,
it's at 5 minutes in, or 18:14:08 or so...

I don't speak Italian,
but I just watched this part that you question,
Dr. Stefanoni is on the phone with her assistant Alessa,
we now know talking about the presumed seminal fluid
and the need to test it.

It is loud and clear,
the Italians recorded it themselves.

The YouTube video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlXKyMh48KQ&app=desktop
that we've seen has some scenes from the downstairs walk-around deleted,
but the audio is still Dr. Stefanoni.

Do a comparison of the 2 vidz if you want,
I just did. Maybe Machiavelli will too,
heck I'd betcha that he'd luv to point out something that Teddy overlooked
so as to help us better understand this case we discuss.

I guessin' that it might be loud because of the design layout of downstairs building walls, heck I can almost her Meredith screaming for help from down there, while outside, if accosted by 2 dudes, as maybe the CCTV folks possibly did...


You do know that some or all of the Crime Scene videos were played in The Massei Court
with the volume turned off,
right?

I found this gem of info while reading around looking for something else last year,
whoa!

Questions about the professionalism of forensic officers in the case have emerged after they were heard joking on a crime scene video about taking cocaine to stay awake.

The tape was shown to the court during the appeal and at the original trial but with no audio – until it was played on Italian TV.
One of the men is heard to say: 'I could really do with some cocaine to give me a kick.'


Gosh,
it was only after someone decided to watch
and apparently listen to it that this information came forward.
On Italian TV!

* * *

While no one of us who debates can say for sure if Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni is telling her assistant to test someone else's seminal fluid, err presumed seminal fluid, well I think it would suck if the Dr. did not test the stain found in Miss Kercher's rape + murder, but instead tested some other random, seminal fluid stain.

Miss Kercher's rape was not important enough,
but someone else's was?

Or was the stain not tested because of budget issues, err, because no court ordered it, err, because she did not have the pillow case in possession, err, because they did not swab the pillow case, err, because they never found the 2nd presumed seminal fluid stain that Rudy stepped in and then, moving his shoe, stepped down + left a fresh shoe ring imprint next to Miss Kercher, dating it from that night...

Stefanoni doesn't tell someone to test a semen stain on the phone.
Even if she said that, it would be totally unsuspicious (unless you are a conspiracy theorist already). She does not say that, however.

 

[Machiavelli]

Hi Machiavelli,
I posted a link here to your live tweets when the ISC was ready to announce the results,
your were there on Wed, but not Friday, I seem to recall,
right?

Question for you.
Did you bitch + complain about what you wrote above before the Final Judgment came down,
or only afterwards, when it did not go your way?

Same for The Hellmann Court.
I seem to recall all of you Pro-Guilt folks being excited before it happened,
Did I miss all of you folks bitchin' and complaining about C + V
before the Appeal Trial commenced.

Or was it only afterwards,
when trial got under way and things did not go your way?
Just wonderin'...

Have a nice Wednesday,
RW

Yes, I complained before. I was upset and suspicious when Bruno made a comment that looked like a code to me, and I interpreted that in the most negative way. I was also suspicious about the fact that Bruno was the person appointed as reporting judge, because Bruno has been involved in an investigation on mafia, masonry and political corruption. And also because Bruno is from Reggio Calabria where I have sources who tell me who is who.

I also objected when C&V were appointed, and I pointed out that it was against the code.

The C&V report did not go against my way, for how I see it: actually, given their testimonies, it serves as evidence that they were involved in a judicial fraud.
The SC pointed out they were intellectually dishonest and Vecchiotti's institute was shut down, so it's not me bitching around. Vecchiotti had a terrible reputation, and she us also part of a mafia system of the legal medicine experts in Rome, who are also very hostile to the LE laboratories.

 

[Machiavelli]

Nothing is false and this forum has shown, numerous times, that all of these tricks and deceptions and dirty Italian Tricks have been used by the Italian Justice system: It is just that you deny it, but they all happened.
I do not care what "Art. 617 CPP" or any other piece of Italian nonsense says, in this case there has NEVER been a motivation released in 30 days.
Your tactic in this regard is to quote some obscure rule that everyone always ignores and act as if the disregarded rule is the way the world works.
This is what we come to expect from the poster who is always incorrect about the decisions that are made by very legal system he proports to understand.

It's all false. This forum only shows the extent of insanity of its members. The level of denial and inconsistency they are ready to host into their racist minds.
I have shown countless times how the pro-Knox are wrong and make up all of their statements and myths, I have shown you are factually wrong all the time and viciously false in so many things, yet all those details get mysteriously "forgotten".

 

[JREF2010]

If transcribing an interrogation is too expensive then why not just make the recording and if it turns out to be important you can transcribe it later? Is common sense a lost art in Perugia?
There are some things that are very admirable in the Italian system but this suppression of evidence is something that I think most Europeans would not agree with.

It is unfair and it obstructs the course of justice.

The "budget" lie Migninni spewed, the guilters claim it isnt required to record interrogations.... but we all know they were recording everything before and after, and they did have the money apparently to record the next interrogation between Amanda and Migninni, once she had proper legal support.

and they had money for the failed cartoon, the "budget" lie failed just like Migninnis case.

 

[zotz]

Stefanoni doesn't tell someone to test a semen stain on the phone.
Even if she said that, it would be totally unsuspicious (unless you are a conspiracy theorist already). She does not say that, however.

We both know that the police or someone working for them did the test and it wasn't Sollecito. This idea of yours that they forgot about it does not pass the laugh test. Why go through all this turmoil, assuming that you believe that Sollecito is guilty? If Sollicito is the one that left the semen stain there would have been no need for silly cartoon reconstructions, leaking Amanda's sex partners to the tabloids, tortured justifications for shoddy LCN DNA profiles, hysterical rhetoric about Luciferinas, multiple changing motives, or any of the rest of the pseudo-evidence. Raffaele's semen on the pillow would have meant game over and we all could have moved on with our lives.

But none of this happened because the prosecution forgot about the semen stain? That is pure bovine scatology or BS for short. The prosecution did test the stain and then they simply lied about it. They swept it under the rug.

 

[Bill Williams]

It's all false. This forum only shows the extent of insanity of its members. The level of denial and inconsistency they are ready to host into their racist minds.
I have shown countless times how the pro-Knox are wrong and make up all of their statements and myths, I have shown you are factually wrong all the time and viciously false in so many things, yet all those details get mysteriously "forgotten".

You've asserted many things and demonstrated nothing. You weave between factoids and process-toids, obfiscare and deny deny deny. You claim conspiracy yet nothing ever comes of it. You admit that you're unaware of and Italian-language conversation in Italy about the case, much less any who shares your conspiracy.

 

[davefoc]

We both know that the police or someone working for them did the test and it wasn't Sollecito. This idea of yours that they forgot about it does not pass the laugh test. Why go through all this turmoil, assuming that you believe that Sollecito is guilty? If Sollicito is the one that left the semen stain there would have been no need for silly cartoon reconstructions, leaking Amanda's sex partners to the tabloids, tortured justifications for shoddy LCN DNA profiles, hysterical rhetoric about Luciferinas, multiple changing motives, or any of the rest of the pseudo-evidence. Raffaele's semen on the pillow would have meant game over and we all could have moved on with our lives.

But none of this happened because the prosecution forgot about the semen stain? That is pure bovine scatology or BS for short. The prosecution did test the stain and then they simply lied about it. They swept it under the rug.

If Mignini really believed Sollecito was guilty and he decided not to test the semen stain he is the biggest idiot on the face of the planet. If he knew the stain had been tested and he chose to have the result suppressed he isn't the biggest idiot on the planet but he is an immoral jerk of the most repugnant kind. There is also the possibility that Mignini knew AK/RS were innocent from early on and he chose to not have the stain tested because he thought he knew what the result would be.

My guess, is that Mignini judged that the world was not going to be too enthused about his fantasies if it was revealed that Guede had ejaculated over the dead or dying Kercher and he colluded with the judge and Stefanoni to hide the test results. This wasn't the only evidence suppressed. It seems extremely likely that the evidence from the downstairs crime scene was intentionally obfuscated and the results from the rape test kit were only partially released.

 

[Kauffer]

It's all false. This forum only shows the extent of insanity of its members. The level of denial and inconsistency they are ready to host into their racist minds.
I have shown countless times how the pro-Knox are wrong and make up all of their statements and myths, I have shown you are factually wrong all the time and viciously false in so many things, yet all those details get mysteriously "forgotten".

Insanity? Here's insanity: It's when someone who thinks Amanda and Raffaele are guilty but when confronted with the fact that there is no physical evidence of them in the room as there is with Guede - evidence of them in blood, or transfer evidence on their clothes or at Raffaele's apartment, says that they "ran out the room" and cannot then provide a plausible argument - in fact, any argument at all, to support his contention that they did deposit Kercher's blood outside the room by showing where in the room and how in the room and when in the room they collected it in the first place, yet left no evidence of their coming back to the room or leaving it a second time.

Nor can he account for the fact that the fragment of glass found in Kercher's room in one of Guede's bloody shoeprints, if the burglary had been staged, must have been collected after the murder by the stagers such that whoever staged it would have left trails of bloody prints in and out of Kercher's room but in fact left none nor evidence that such prints had been cleaned.

That's insanity.

 

[Kauffer]

Sorry, this kind of nonsense could have no place in a SC reasoning.
"It must be of exonerating charachter" because "the prosecution could have closed the gaps", so we can state for sure the impossibility of searching evidence. I hope you realize the idiocy of what you are stating.

Perhaps your underlying problem is exactly this. You think that it is idiocy to point out that the evidence suppressed in this case, which you previously said was irrelevant to a consideration of guilt or innocence, you now say should have been the point adopted by the 5th section as a reason to prolong the trial, because, you argue, that to test the presumed semen stain might reveal that Raffaele was the owner!

Yet the non idiotic argument is actually to say, right at the start of proceedings, all of the evidence suppressed by the prosecution and tests not completed, should have been available in discovery. In particular, the EDFs are an essential element. Forensic scientists of repute routinely disclose them because they validate their work. So, the EDFs, if the work had been sound, would have revealed them to be sound. Or they would have revealed them to be flawed. When they are not disclosed, you can be sure that they reveal the work is flawed.

Yet, we now know for certain that the work was flawed, just not the full extent of it. With reference to the data dump at the Massei trial, there is evidence of massive suppression of profiles, contamination and malfunctioning machinery, let alone the problems associated with the collection of evidence in the first place or Stefanoni's lie with regard to the use of the Qubit, which she did not disclose in her original report.

Why was the data dump necessary? Why wasn't all of this information and more made available to the defence before the Massei trial? Why did it take the defence to realise that Comodi knew far more about Stefanoni's results than they did to prompt the judge to order a late trial disclosure?

And now you want the court to hold the former defendants over for continuing trial while the court orders another test! Oh dear!

 

[Planigale]

Planigale don't you think what should matter is the case, and that should be considered itself, not replaced with considerations about "the system"?

No I do not. If there are systemic problems this affects many people. I think that many of the people criticised here, probably did what they usually did. They did not behave any worse in this case than others. Picking on individuals in one case will not prevent the same bad things happening again.

For instance, I previously referenced another case where the postal police wiped hard drives when trying to read them. In the Elisa Clasps case Pascali criticised Steffanoni for not following protocols. I suspect that Steffanoni was doing LCN testing without the facilities in that case also. It would be interesting to know what training judges underwent in the evaluation of genetic evidence so they can ask the right questions to ensure the testing was done appropriately. England has an external regulator and standard setter for forensic science.

So if one wants things to improve, focussing on individuals is not the answer, one needs a systems approach as happens in air safety. Individuals make errors, you put systems in place to reduce those. E.g. Record interrogations. Investigate allegations of police misbehaviour. Ensure laboratories have QA systems in place and external validation. Forensic errors should be reviewed - why were the shoe print rings miscounted, were the 'experts' doing this trained in analysing shoe prints. Did they have SOPs in place? Were measures done blind to the reference prints?

 

[Kauffer]

What do you mean, "couldn't count the tread rings"? Raff's own defense argued the footprint parameters were "too undistinguished" to assign to anyone.

Cops found a ladies size 37 bloody footprint, but as they didn't find the shoe, they didn't pursue it.

The aforementioned "undistinguished" print, has been assigned to Rudy "definitely" even though no actual trainer was retrieved and he takes size 45, when police experts said it was size 42 and had the same matching defect on the heel as Raff's.

When ascribed to Raff, evidence is "too undistinguished", "collected too late, "contaminated", the result of incompetent corrupt police.

When ascribed to Rudy, we suddenly find the evidence is all absolutely solid, with no hint of any of the above concerns.

Wake up, peeps!

You can't analyse anything can you, evidence wise? The prosecution went to court and told the court that shoeprints in blood in Kercher's room were Raffaele's when they were not. The box for the shoes that made the prints was found at Guede's place. There was no size 37 print at all.

It is highly instructive that the mountain of evidence against Guede you regard as light and the nonsense adduced against Amanda and Raffaele, convincing.

 

[Planigale]

You can't analyse anything can you, evidence wise? The prosecution went to court and told the court that shoeprints in blood in Kercher's room were Raffaele's when they were not. The box for the shoes that made the prints was found at Guede's place. There was no size 37 print at all.

It is highly instructive that the mountain of evidence against Guede you regard as light and the nonsense adduced against Amanda and Raffaele, convincing.

I think Vixen is confusing the shoe prints and the footprints. Several times I have asked Vixen to be precise as to what type of print is being referred to. The footprints have little identifying features, the shoe prints have sufficient features to exclude Sollecito's shoes, and identify them as a match in size and model to Guede's shoes that he disposed of. We cannot know who wore them. A forensic anthropologist might have been able to estimate height from the step length.

 

[Mike1711]

Sorry, this kind of nonsense could have no place in a SC reasoning.
"It must be of exonerating charachter" because "the prosecution could have closed the gaps", so we can state for sure the impossibility of searching evidence. I hope you realize the idiocy of what you are stating.

So after 7 years the prosecution hadn't finished with their case and evidence only becomes relevant to find guilt? When that same evidence might be required to help the defence then it's not really too important.

Doesn't seem like a level playing field to me.

Qotatation marks should contain a direct quotation.

 

[Mr Fied]

Mach I think you previously said the procedure in Italy was to destroy the physical evidence so presumably it would not be available for testing.

Such procedure exists.

Surely not while the trial is still in progress?

 

[Zephyrgeist]

If Mignini really believed Sollecito was guilty and he decided not to test the semen stain he is the biggest idiot on the face of the planet. If he knew the stain had been tested and he chose to have the result suppressed he isn't the biggest idiot on the planet but he is an immoral jerk of the most repugnant kind. There is also the possibility that Mignini knew AK/RS were innocent from early on and he chose to not have the stain tested because he thought he knew what the result would be.

My guess, is that Mignini judged that the world was not going to be too enthused about his fantasies if it was revealed that Guede had ejaculated over the dead or dying Kercher and he colluded with the judge and Stefanoni to hide the test results. This wasn't the only evidence suppressed. It seems extremely likely that the evidence from the downstairs crime scene was intentionally obfuscated and the results from the rape test kit were only partially released.

Here! Here!

And thank you for informing me that you had flagged one of my previous posts. I often don't know when I've gone too far. People informing me of boundaries Rock!

As does this post. You often Understate, Mr. DaveFoc, but not this time. I think you nailed it!

 

[Mr Fied]

Evidence against Raff

Let's face it, there has never been any physical evidence against Raffaelle (or Amanda) in this entire case.

As soon as it was proved that the bloody shoeprints were not made by his trainers the miraculous DNA on the bra clasp was found. As was pointed out to Nencini, a second test is required affirm the findings, although he chose to ignore this. The clasp cannot be re-examined as someone managed to cock up the storage. Funny that!

I cannot believe that the investigators would not have tested the possible semen stain. If this was proved to be from Raff surely that would have been a slam dunk for the prosecution and no need to "find" evidence weeks after the event.

 

[LondonJohn]

Yes, I complained before. I was upset and suspicious when Bruno made a comment that looked like a code to me, and I interpreted that in the most negative way. I was also suspicious about the fact that Bruno was the person appointed as reporting judge, because Bruno has been involved in an investigation on mafia, masonry and political corruption. And also because Bruno is from Reggio Calabria where I have sources who tell me who is who.

I also objected when C&V were appointed, and I pointed out that it was against the code.

The C&V report did not go against my way, for how I see it: actually, given their testimonies, it serves as evidence that they were involved in a judicial fraud.
The SC pointed out they were intellectually dishonest and Vecchiotti's institute was shut down, so it's not me bitching around. Vecchiotti had a terrible reputation, and she us also part of a mafia system of the legal medicine experts in Rome, who are also very hostile to the LE laboratories.

*Sigh*

Machiavelli is apparently oblivious to the deep irony here. In making these extreme claims about the likes of Hellmann and Vecchiotti, he is signally failing to realise that if his claims are correct, then this in and of itself indicates fundamental corruption, mismanagement and unfitness-for-purpose of the Italian criminal justice system as it relates to this trial. And that, in itself, would be a damning verdict on the system and a gigantic red flag in regard to whether Knox and Sollecito were ever able to receive a fair trial.

Either way, the system stinks, and is indefensible: Hellmann and Vecchiotti were either fair, correct and just (in which case the judges before them, and the first SC ruling after them, were either incompetent or corrupt or both), or they were incompetent and/or corrupt themselves and were appointed corruptly by higher, more powerful figures in the Italian judiciary who were therefore probably either incompetent or corrupt themselves as well. Either way, it's a shocking state of affairs. Italy ought to be ashamed of itself in respect of the way this case was handled by its laughable criminal justice system.